Fr. Barron and hell?

[Usagi]

Respectfully, I don’t think there is a question, but I guess that is subject to interpretation. I think these Scriptures reveal a warning and a prediction. If Fr. Barron is correct in his assessment, it sure seems like the Church has wasted a lot of time in talking about mortal sin, the need for confession, the necessity of baptism, the importance of evangelization, etc. It just doesn’t add up, in my opinion.

The claim isn’t that Hell will be empty of human inhabitants no matter what we or God do; if that were the case, yes, the Church would be foolish to focus on the concepts you mention. But that would be universalism, which is heresy and not what Fr. Barron or his supporters in the thread are claiming.

The claim is that WE MAY HOPE that all that effort spent on mortal sin, baptism, confession, and evangelization – and most importantly of all, the grace of God that underlies all those things – will actually have the desired effect of most or all human souls avoiding hell.

Yes, if I take the hope as a presumption – that no matter what I do, I will not be damned – then I will likely ruin that hope for everyone because I, at least, would be waltzing right into the inferno. I understand the danger some see in this idea – or rather, misunderstandings of it – becoming widespread. But still, “I hope our side not only wins, but wins all the marbles” is a very different statement from “Our side is gonna win no matter what, so let’s not bother fighting our hardest for every last marble.”

Usagi

 

[Catolico65]

Which statement would that be… “judge not, lest…”? Or maybe “let him without sin…”? I appreciate that you’ve changed your mind, based on someone’s interpretation of Scripture. Yet, it is not the Church’s, per se – she tells us that we cannot presume that any person is in hell. (Does that mean that we should presume that no one’s in hell? Not precisely; but it’s a far cry from your “Scripturally based” conclusions… )

You are confused, I read the Gospel myself. Furthermore, repeating a false claim does not give it validity.

 

[Catolico65]

I couldn’t resist: Sola Scriptura, coupled with private literal interpretation, devoid of all other scriptural references and Magisterial teachings!

You are confused. No one has defended sola sripture, on the contrary. Furthermore, even your own reference disagrees with your claim.

 

[Sirach2]

You are confused. No one has defended sola sripture, on the contrary. Furthermore, even your own reference disagrees with your claim.

No, I am not the confused one here. I did not use the phrase as though you had “defended sola scriptura” but in the sense that you engaged in it – the act of privately reading scripture and making it a law unto your own concept of what it says, denouncing everyone else’s argument as being inferior to what you have decided is truth.

 

[Gorgias]

You are confused, I read the Gospel myself.

Oh, I see. Everyone who reads the Gospel interprets it correctly and authoritatively? My mistake…

Furthermore, repeating a false claim does not give it validity.

Funny, that… this is precisely what I keep trying to tell you!

 

[Catolico65]

Oh, I see. Everyone who reads the Gospel interprets it correctly and authoritatively? My mistake…

Funny, that… this is precisely what I keep trying to tell you!

I am not obligated to believe in your personal private interpretations, I defer to the Church regarding this matter.

 

[Catolico65]

No, I am not the confused one here. I did not use the phrase as though you had “defended sola scriptura” but in the sense that you engaged in it – the act of privately reading scripture and making it a law unto your own concept of what it says, denouncing everyone else’s aargument as being inferior to what you have decided is truth.

With all due respect your comment was clear, as was your other disingenuous comments. You method of discussing a topic by attributing false statements/inferences to others is not charitable.

 

[Sirach2]

With all due respect your comment was clear, as was your other disingenuous comments. You method of discussing a topic by attributing false statements/inferences to others is not charitable.

Hey Pot, I think Michael Francis needs to step in with his Nun icon. :yup:

 

[Michael_Francis]

http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h244/corona_stellarum/Smilies/nun_slapping_ruler_hg_clr-2.gif
***Now reopened.

Please remain on topic and maintain the highest level of charity in all things.

---

 

[Jerry-Jet]

Jesus spoke more about Hell than Heaven–if you don’t believe it count up all the verses.

Why would Jesus speak more about an empty place? Does that make sense? Of course not.

When Jesus says “The way to eternal life is rocky and narrow and FEW there are that find it”–it MUST mean that the great majority that aren’t the FEW must not find it–which means they MUST be in Hell!

Why would St. Paul say “Work out your salvation with fear and trembling” if Hell were an empty place? Why be trembling if it is EMPTY?

Now I don’t know for sure if Father Barron is a universalist or if he believes that it is possible that Hell is empty. I do know that the devil would LIKE everyone to believe that Hell is empty–then they would not FEAR it–they wouldn’t work out their salvation with fear and trembling–and because of that they would be much more likely to mortally sin and die in that state and go to Hell! That is what the devil wants!

There does exist a modernist class of people who think they are sophisticated that don’t believe in hell.

And there is a misguided class of people who ONLY believe in God’s mercy.

Now don’t get me wrong–we should certainly concentrate our evangelistic energies on proclaiming the LOVE and MERCY of God–but that doesn’t mean we should only preach PART of the truth–since Jesus teaches of Hell and its REAL possibility we have to PREACH that, too!

This is only my opinion but I think the reason the world is getting more and more evil is that SO MANY people aren’t worried about going to Hell anymore.

I say if you aren’t worried about going to Hell then your life will reflect that and you will act Hellish!

Why is it that the so called "scripture scholars/modernists/sophisticates aren’t worried about Hell–but when you read saints writings they are VERY concerned about not falling to mortal sin and going to Hell?

Which group do you think is more correct–the saints–or all the others?

I hope one day either this pope or a future pope or a pope in union with an ecumenical council will DEFINE out all notions of the non Catholic church teaching of universalism and will DEFINE out the notion of an empty Hell and will state that when Jesus said FEW He meant FEW.

Why do I say that? Not because I want such a large amount of people to go to Hell and such a relatively smaller number to go to Heaven but because such a DEFINED teaching would spur Catholics and all the people of the world to take notice of the gravity of our decisions and knowing that to reform their lives and make it to Heaven.

My prayer is that all would repent and go to Heaven.

And unless someone thinks that is too harsh just think of it this way–if there are 7 billion people alive today and only 3 out of 10(which might be considered “a FEW”) were saved that would still mean that 2.1 billion would be saved–and remember there are only 1.2 billion Catholics which would mean that yes–IF EVERY Catholic were saved there would still be at least 900 million people not formally united to the Catholic Church who would also be saved!

What it would mean though is that 4.9 billion would go to Hell! If everyone in the Catholic Church believed that these numbers were correct–how many would be in the line for Confession and how many would be going to Mass every Sunday?!

Now don’t get me wrong–these numbers are only speculations to illustrate the point that Hell will most certainly NOT be an empty place–I have no idea how many will be saved or how many will go to Hell–St. Thomas Aquinas thought that maybe a majority would go to Hell–but he said that only God knows the answer to that question and I agree with that assessment.

I do know this, though–Jesus didn’t speak of Hell more than Heaven for no reason.

He offers us His Love and Divine Mercy. Lord have mercy on us sinners. Lord Save Us!

 

[Sirach2]

Jerry, it is good to be watchful in regard to one’s salvation, but not to the point of scrupulosity or intense fear, which is not at all the good virtue of “fear of God.”

Just a few considerations that you may not be aware of. Do a search in New Testament only at Duoay-Rheims website on the words “hell” and “mercy.” You will only find 15 references to hell in the gospels, although the other N.T. writings have a reference. However, there are 131 references to “mercy” in the gospels, with many more in the epistles, etc. It is embarrassing for you to use this as proof-texting for your last post, that many will go to hell, when the gospel message clearly is based on hope and trust in God’s mercy … not hell and damnation.

Remember, perfect love casts out fear. Let us strive for that perfect love of God that keeps us on the straight and narrow, bringing forth good fruit unto salvation. One who genuinely loves God will rarely, if ever, commit a deliberate mortal sin, and has nothing to fear.

 

[Gorgias]

Why would Jesus speak more about an empty place?

To make sure it stayed empty.

Why would St. Paul say “Work out your salvation with fear and trembling” if Hell were an empty place?

To the person in danger of spending an eternity in hell, what does it matter whether anyone’s there or not? Hell is no less hell if no one is there, and no more horrible if it’s ‘full’…

Why be trembling if it is EMPTY?

Because empty or full, we each tremble at the prospect that we’ll end up there.

Now I don’t know for sure if Father Barron is a universalist

If you watched the video whose link was posted, there are only two possibilities: either you know that Fr Barron is not a universalist, or you’ve misunderstood what he said.

I do know that the devil would LIKE everyone to believe that Hell is empty–then they would not FEAR it

This makes no sense to me. A prison is no less terrifying a prospect if it is empty…

 

[Jerry-Jet]

The real question is this: Should Catholics BELIEVE Jesus to be telling the TRUTH or lying when He said considering the path to eternal life that “FEW there are that Find it”.

Was Jesus telling the truth or lying–it’s that simple!

The scriptures say that “Fear of God is the beginning of wisdom”. Is that true or false? Is that fear of God “scrupulous” or “intense”. No it is rational and soberly appropriate.

When Jesus says at the Last judgement that many will say Lord Lord–when did we see thee thirsty and not give you drink or naked and not clothe thee or hungry and not feed thee or in prison and not visit thee and Jesus will say if you did not do these things to the least of my brethren you have done them not to me.

When Jesus separates the sheep from the goats–plural–that will not EQUATE to an empty Hell.

Exactly HOW MANY examples must be directly quoted from Jesus where HE SPEAKS of weeping and gnashing of teeth until the LIE of universalism is exposed.

I’ll tell you this–Jesus speaks of Hell more than he speaks of the Eucharist and we as Catholics LITERALLY take His word when it comes to the Eucharist–why is it that we won’t take him LITERALLY at his word when he speaks of Hell?

 

[Gorgias]

The real question is this: Should Catholics BELIEVE Jesus to be telling the TRUTH or lying when He said considering the path to eternal life that “FEW there are that Find it”.

A question for you, which I have been pondering during the course of this thread: are there any who, having not found the path to eternal life, are nevertheless saved? If so, then the assertion that “few there are that find it” means that there are few in heaven, just doesn’t hold up.

The scriptures say that “Fear of God is the beginning of wisdom”. Is that true or false? Is that fear of God “scrupulous” or “intense”. No it is rational and soberly appropriate.

Depends. What do you think “fear of God” means?

 

[Jerry-Jet]

List the Doctors of the Catholic Church who have taught of an empty Hell.

There aren’t any!

List the Ecumenical Councils that have taught of an empty Hell.

There are none!

Cite the verses where Jesus says that ALL are saved.

There are none!

List any approved private revelations by the Catholic Church that teach of an empty Hell!

There are none!

Did St. Thomas Aquinas in the Summa ever teach of an empty Hell?

The answer is NO!

A Catholic has to acknowledge as true that all the Catholic Church teaches is revealed by God.

Can ANYONE show me where the Catholic Church teaches that Hell is EMPTY?

No!

I’ll tell you this–I believe in the truths about God because I believe in the Catholic Church.

It never has taught in an empty Hell so I’m sorry–I will not believe in an Empty Hell. The basis for it is empty!

No there are none who haven’t found the path to eternal life and are nevertheless saved–all who are saved are saved because Jesus leads them on the PATH–Jesus said " I am THE way–THE Truth–and THE Life–No one comes to the Father but by me."

“Fear of God” certainly entails respect. There is no respect for God when anyone would think that all the billions of unrepentant sinners who die in a state of mortal sin are kept from Hell and it is empty! Anyone who believes that garbage has NO respect for the Justice of God.

And anyone who believes that hell is empty thinks that everyone chooses God. Human experience tells us that that is a silly notion. Also if God MAKES everyone repentant then He doesn’t respect their freedom of will. God is Love and the scriptures say that “Love does not demand its own way.”

And WHY would God allow the angels to Fall and go to hell forever but NOT allow for the possibilty of humans choosing to go to Hell just like Satan did?

If universalism is true then the whole salvation story is a FARCE because everyone would have gone to heaven anyway so what was the point of Jesus dying on the Cross?

The TWIST of heresies such as universalism always leads to Hell. Universalism doesn’t improve people’s lives by relieving them of worrying about going to Hell–rather it enslaves them because by not worrying about going to Hell–people are much more likely to choose sin–that makes people slaves and sends them down the road to Hell.

 

[Gorgias]

List the Doctors of the Catholic Church who have taught of an empty Hell.
List the Ecumenical Councils that have taught of an empty Hell.
Cite the verses where Jesus says that ALL are saved.
List any approved private revelations by the Catholic Church that teach of an empty Hell!
Did St. Thomas Aquinas in the Summa ever teach of an empty Hell?
Can ANYONE show me where the Catholic Church teaches that Hell is EMPTY?

Jerry J,

You’re asking the wrong questions. If anyone here were suggesting that, dogmatically speaking, hell must be empty, you’d be onto something. That’s not what’s being suggested, though. The only question that’s being asked is whether there’s the possibility that, given God’s mercy, hell might possibly never see a human resident. So, the right questions to ask are:

List all the doctors of the Church, ecumenical councils, verses of Scripture, private revelations, statements by Aquinas, and Church teachings that say that God is loving and merciful.

It never has taught in an empty Hell so I’m sorry–I will not believe in an Empty Hell. The basis for it is empty!

In the end, of course, the question isn’t “is hell empty?” The question, when you die and face the particular judgment, will be “is hell about to be one person more full?” We all hope that the answer to that question is “NO!”

Where people seem to be ticked off in this thread is in the assertion that hell ‘must’ be empty. No one is suggesting that. If you can find anyone in this thread who says that, then they’re teaching universalism, and they’re wrong. Good luck finding that, though.

No there are none who haven’t found the path to eternal life and are nevertheless saved–all who are saved are saved because Jesus leads them on the PATH–Jesus said " I am THE way–THE Truth–and THE Life–No one comes to the Father but by me."

I hate to tell you this, but I would say that this is where you’re wrong. The CCC, in #848, says, “in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him.” Now… unless you’re saying that there’s a path to salvation that’s other than belief in Jesus, then you’re saying that the catechism is wrong: after all, it’s saying that there are those who are ignorant of the Gospel but nevertheless are saved. So, it would seem that there are those who have not found the ‘narrow door’ but still are saved. QED.

There is no respect for God when anyone would think that all the billions of unrepentant sinners who die in a state of mortal sin are kept from Hell and it is empty!

Umm… who in the world said that? No one in this thread! Now, if you want to keep setting up straw men, you can keep yourself busy all day long knocking them down; but don’t fool yourself into thinking that this is what folks are saying here!

Also if God MAKES everyone repentant then He doesn’t respect their freedom of will.

That, right there, is pretty much the definition of universalism. No one here is suggesting that.

And WHY would God allow the angels to Fall and go to hell forever but NOT allow for the possibilty of humans choosing to go to Hell just like Satan did?

First of all, the suggestion here isn’t that God doesn’t allow it. Second of all, there’s a distinct difference between angels and humans: they see God immediately and fully; we do not.

If universalism is true

Let’s try again (although I’m not certain that this attempt will work,either): belief in the hope that hell could be empty of human souls is. not. the. same. as. universalism.

 

[dcana]

Well, we know that “1/3” of all the angels that were created are there. If God allowed this immense (but unknown) number of these superior beings to “go to their own place,” then why not many of us? Do we not have the same freedom as they, and do we not all abuse this freedom and turn from God as well? I know that the idea that we can have “hope” that hell is empty (save for the “1/3” of the fallen angels) comes from the generally respected theologian (I think - that he’s generally respected, that is) Hans Urs Von Balthasar, though I don’t know that it originated with him, but I for one don’t believe that we can have any such hope. Is anyone familiar enough with Von Balthasar to know if he believed that we can even hope that not even the fallen angels are in hell? This would seem heretical to me, given Our Lord’s words concerning “the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.” Why do we call them “fallen angels?” Where did they “fall” to? We know theologically that due to the nature of their intellect, it wasn’t possible for them to repent once they chose to sin, unlike us. It also doesn’t make any sense to me when Jesus describes the separation of the sheep and goats and says, “Depart from me, you evildoers,” if there are no goats. Are we ALL going to be on his right? I don’t think so. What kind of “judgement” would that be? That doesn’t seem like any kind of “judgement” or “separation” that I know of. Who was He talking to on His left, or rather, who will He be talking to on His left on That Day? No one? We can’t know if there are relatively few people there or if it “has an overpopulation problem,” as one poster jokingly put it, but IMO there are many souls there. I’d put it at 10% of all humans created (though I could be way off ) It’s got to be from 1% to 49%. I’d certainly hope and expect that in God’s plan for humankind, including our gift of free will, He wouldn’t “set things up,” if you will, such that 1/2 or more of his children would ultimately choose to reject their Father and “go to their own place.”

God bless

 

[dcana]

I’d certainly hope and expect that in God’s plan for humankind, including our gift of free will, He wouldn’t “set things up,” if you will, such that 1/2 or more of his children would ultimately choose to reject their Father and “go to their own place.”

God bless

But that’s just the musings of a puny human mind. God says of His own intellect compared to mine:

For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, says the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.

Therefore, a “majority” is certainly possible.

God loves you

 

[Jerry-Jet]

“Few” will never mean a majority. “Few” means that an empty Hell is impossible. Jesus referring to Judas and saying "It would be better for that man if he had never been born = the great likelihood that Judas went to hell. If he didn’t then how could Jesus’ statement that “it would have been better for him if he had never been born” be true? This also disproves and “empty hell”.

No pope will ever teach that Hell is empty. Modernist theologians come up with garbage like that–people who are pope NEVER do!

A majority of people winding up going to Hell does not make God any less merciful… Everyone one is offered the Unlimited infinite love of Jesus that bore all the trillions of sins in his body on the cross.

People who go to hell to there because they reject that infinite love and want to go to Hell instead of being with Jesus. The fact that they make that choice does not make God any less merciful. The fact that Satan and 1/3 of the angels rejected God does not make God less merciful.

Was God UNMERCIFUL for casting them all down to Hell? NO!!!

God is even merciful when it comes to hell because even though the people there suffer eternal exqusitively painful punishment–they don’t suffer eternal INFINITE punishment which is what they deserve for rejecting the INFINITE sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross.

People who don’t understand that they DESERVE eternal INFINITE punishment have no clue as to the sacrifice that the Infinite God Jesus made on the Cross and since He made that INFINITE sacrifice Justice DEMANDS that the person who rejects that INFINITE love and that the sins they committed brought Jesus to that INFINITE gift of love–those people actually DO WANT HELL!

God doesn’t send people to hell–He LETS people CHOOSE to go there! That is the ultimate act of a loving God–He lets people exercise their human will!

I personally think at most only 1/3 of people will be saved–I think if you add up all the angels who are saved and all the people who are saved it will be 1 person more than 50%.

Who will be the one additional person–Jesus Christ–true God and True Man!

That is just a guess–I wish that all would be saved but I believe Jesus when He says FEW.

 

[Sirach2]

Oh what webs we weave. . .trying to prove our preconceived ideas!

Nobody knows for sure how many are or will be in hell except God alone. Why do some people try to outguess the Omnicient Infinite God?

There was an interesting post in Spirituality today that shows the Church’s solicitude to save as many as possible. A plenary indulgence has been granted as follows:

Many Catholics may not realize that Holy Mother Church grants a plenary indulgence for any Catholic in danger of death. No 28 of the Enchridion of Indulgences states:
To the faithful in danger of death, who cannot be assisted by a priest to bring them the sacraments and impart the Apostolic Blessing with its plenary indulgence, Holy Mother Church nevertheless grants a plenary indulgence to be acquired at the point of death, provided they are properly disposed and have been in the habit of reciting some prayers during their lifetime.

The use of a crucifix or a cross to gain this indulgence is praiseworthy." The condition: ‘provided they have been in the habit of reciting some prayers during their lifetime’ supplies in such cases for the three usual conditions required for the gaining of a plenary indulgence." The plenary indulgence at the point of death can be acquired by the faithful, even if they have already obtained another plenary indulgence on the same day."

Naturally, this would apply primarily to Catholics who understand the blessing of obtaining plenary indulgences and frequently make use of them. For those outside our faith, well, that may account for a larger number of lost souls, perhaps. Yet I know from reading St. Faustina’s Diary and many passages of scripture, that God is** infinitely merciful **and I think those who are ready and willing to condemn others to hell on a mere supposition of guilt are warped in their understanding and do much harm to the Body of Christ whenever they dispense this gloom and doom to sensitive souls.