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Edward_H
Guest
Joe, answered your hurried and off-base comment elsewhere. Don’t confuse intelligence with biases.
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929dad
Guest
You basically said that anyone who liked “P&W” not smart enough to understand chant. That’s totally absurd. I have 2 degrees in music, including a master’s degree and I enjoy any number of styles of liturgical music. I’m guessing there are any number of others, with or without music degrees, who feel the same way.
You also content that there isn’t any music that can be considered both appropriate for Mass and “P&W” in style. That kind of generalization demonstrates your biases about music. We all have preferences. That’s fine. What isn’t fine is when we call those biases facts.
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TheMc
Guest
Well it’s true. It’s not just our preferences. P&W style music is not suitable for Mass. It is not sacred music.
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Edward_H
Guest
No, for the second time, that’s not at all what I said. I didn’t “basically” say any such thing.
You will see no reference to intelligence or smartness. And my follow up notes emphasized the difference between intelligence and biases. Your own biases have inserted that word.
What don’t you understand about the distinction and my medical example given. This misunderstanding of yours is actually proving my point.
And on the second point, you misunderstand as well. My point is that there is P&W music that’s not appropriate for Mass, a non-overlapping set of music. It might be fine for listening while driving, for a prayer service, for a retreat, etc. And there might be P&W music that is appropriate for Mass, the overlapping set of music.
Many people continue to misunderstand what Holy Mass is for.
J
Joe_5859
Guest
I thought I was on-base.
That’s why I used the word “insinuation”. I didn’t think you meant it as a broad statement denigrating the intelligence of those you disagree with. I was simply expressing a concern that others could easily take it that way. Perhaps I was sloppy with my own language and made some false insinuations of my own. 
If we’re talking biases, though, we all have biases. Some people are better than others at identifying their own biases and at least minimizing the impact. I wouldn’t presume that a P&W fan was incapable of that.
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The_Curt_Jester
Guest
My pastor really needs to read stuff like this, but I know if he does, it will be with a closed mind. He’s already made it clear that he wants HIS will to be done at the Church and while he’ll nod his head in agreement with Church documents on music, he practices the opposite in what he allows (and wants). Short of the Pope issuing an official declaration on music, is there anything we can do to get people to wake up? Sheesh!
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Cat
Guest
If your question is serious, yes, there is something you can do.
Pay for young children to learn the kind of music that you (and apparently the Church) want to become the “norm” in Mass.
The fact is, music education in the U.S. is in very poor shape. Many public schools have abandoned any attempt to provide music education due to budget constraints. The school day has been shortened to only six hours a day or less, and most of this time is spent trying to get the children to a point where they can “pass” the national standardized tests and earn federal and state dollars that will allow their school to stay open.
Many of the public schools that still have music education share one teacher between several public schools, and he/she sees each class only once a week or less. This time is not sufficient for a teacher to teach music skills such as reading music, singing correctly, music history and appreciation, different languages, etc.
In many schools, in recent years, there has been an outcry from various interest groups against “white Eurocentric music,” and the result has been music classes featuring rock, pop, rap, hip-hop, soul, Latino, Asian, Middle Eastern, Jewish, etc. Music education classes have become “sing-alongs”.
Also, of course, ANY music that includes any mention of Christianity is utterly taboo. This means that most of the classics are never mentioned, let alone sung or listened to. The sole form of Christian music that is sometimes still allowed in public schools is Negro Spirituals. However, even these pieces have fallen into disfavor, as they are seen as representing slavery and degradation.
Not only is this the case in public schools, but also in many private schools, including Catholic schools. These schools are dependent upon parents to enroll their children and pay the tuition. If the parents/children are dissatisfied and walk away, then there will be no tuition, and the school will cut back or close. So many private schools cater to the wishes of the parents and teach what is popular.
Am I communicating this adequately? Are you understanding what I’m saying here?! What I’m saying is that children in the U.S. do not learn anything about music! If you think things are bad in church now, wait a decade–you’ll be lucky to hear ANYTHING in Mass that isn’t rap or rock! All of us who do know how to sing and play will be dead, and the only people left will be this generation of musical illiterates!!! The only way you will ever hear chant, classics, traditional hymns, etc. is to play them on a recording, and of course, this is currently not allowed in Mass. But in the future, perhaps the ban will be lifted out of necessity.
I am not exaggerating one whit. I work with children. I play piano for choirs, and I know a lot of music educators, and we are concerned, worried, and pessimistic about the future of music in the U.S.
The only way that most children in the U.S. learn about music other than popular music is when their parents get them involved in private music lessons and choirs. But this is expensive, and many parents simply can’t afford it.
There is an excellent children’s choir in our city, where children are taught how to read music, how to sing correctly, and they perform a repertoire that includes chant, Latin pieces, and other classical pieces, along with more modern pieces. The woman who leads this choir has a Master’s in Music and many decades of experience teaching children. She is a treasure.
But the choir costs $150 a year. It’s a bargain–the children get many hours of excellent music training. If they paid for this training privately, it would cost thousands a year.
But many families still can’t afford it, especially when they have many children.
So YOU pay their way.
As for music lessons, I can tell you that piano lessons cost anywhere from $25-$50/hour or MORE in this day and age. I can’t even imagine what pipe organ lessons cost, because the student would also have to rent a church building in which to practice the instrument.
And as you know, it takes many years of lessons and practice to become proficient in any instrument, especially a keyboard instrument.
This is absolutely out of the question for many families with children. They don’t have the money to pay for food, let alone pipe organ lessons.
So YOU pay for their children to have private lessons on the pipe organ.
I’m very serious here. I believe that if people want “good” music in their Masses, they have to stop bellyaching on computer forums, and look for a way to get involved and help the children and teenagers in their corner of the world to become educated about “good music.” Perhaps you can start some music scholarships in your parish and get others interested in chipping in so that you don’t have to bear the whole burden of paying.
But the fact is, in the U.S., knowledge of music is declining rapidly, and very few people know anything about singing anything other than Praise and Worship. And if you would bother to attend churches that use Praise and Worship music (Protestant) you would see that most of these congregations do NOT sing along, but instead, just stand there and listen because even singing something simple like Praise and Worship choruses is beyond their scope of knowledge!
So, are you up for the challenge? Or would you rather just complain? It’s easy to complain. It’s hard to fix things.
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The_Curt_Jester
Guest
Oh, yes, I’m quite aware of the situation of music as a whole in the United States. I’m not quite as negative about it as you might think, however, and certainly not to the degree that you seem to be. In regard to what I am doing about it…
I think you probably have no clue what I do, so I’ll inform you. I am an organist, pianist, choir director, music director. I’ve worked with adult choirs (both chant and non-chant), soloists, and children choirs (though not as much as I would have liked with the latter). I’ve given aid to singers on my own time absolutely free of charge. This included the adult choirs, the children’s choirs, and individuals. If they asked me, I would do it. I think that’s pretty close to paying their way, right? So, think again before you accuse someone of merely complaining without doing anything.
And yes, I know the price of pipe organ lessons. They are exactly the same as piano lessons where I come from and are easily affordable. That’s how I got my start in the organ. I’ve been known to give tips on organ playing to other people free of charge as well, as well as donating my services on numerous occasions. I’ve also provided music for the church I worked for at my own expense because it could not afford anything extra. Actually financing a scholarship fund, however, isn’t within my means as music directors around here tend to be woefully underpaid.
Obviously, this isn’t all about me and I’m certainly not trying to brag, but since you were wondering if anyone does anything, I thought I’d give a concrete example.
Want to take your foot out of your mouth now?
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Cat
Guest
I’m glad to hear that you are active and working to advance music.
No, I will not take my foot out of my mouth. My words stlll stand. I have made these statements before on this forum and I will continue to make these kinds of statements about music. Although the words do not apply to you, they apply to many others on this forum. Many people criticize the Mass music, but do nothing to improve it. My post will hopefully encourage them to get up and do something, and especially to invest some money in musical training of the young.
Easily affordable pipe organ lessons? That’s amazing. You are very fortunate. In our city, as I said, piano lessons are around $25-$50/hour. To me, that’s not easily affordable. We paid this for both of our daughters, but we have two good incomes. Many of the families that I know, especially large families, simply don’t have these kinds of funds.
There are options to take piano and organ lessons from less-qualified teachers, who often charge a great deal less. But you get what you pay for. Often these teachers are not able to teach a child beyond a certain level, and that level is not adequate to equip a child to play for Mass or any other church services.
I am the chairperson of a large youth music competition in our city (10 counties are involved), so I’m pretty aware of what’s happening with youth music around here. I don’t know of one single young person who is currently taking pipe organ lessons from any of the few qualified organists left in our city. I know that several of the area colleges have closed down their organ majors, since no one is majoring in organ anymore.
You are fortunate that things are different where you live. We live close to Chicago, BTW.
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TheMc
Guest
Cat,
I’m noticing several attitudes in your posts:
A great negativity towards the music the church wants:
Cat:
This is quite untrue. Many of us are doing much work in real life to bring back the music of the church and end abuses.
I’m noticing several attitudes in your posts:
A great negativity towards the music the church wants:
The assumption that no one is doing anything but sitting around complaining.
This is quite untrue. Many of us are doing much work in real life to bring back the music of the church and end abuses.
C
Cat
Guest
I am not negative towards the music that the Church wants. I love classical music and polyphony. I love the pipe organ and own several excellent albums of pipe organ music. I am not fond of chant, but I respect it as a genre and appreciate its historic and religious significance. I also respect that others do find it ethereal and are touched in their soul by chant.
Yes, I admit that I am negative about the prospects of Gregorian chant, polyphony, and other ancient forms of music becoming the “norm” in most parishes in the U.S. I just don’t think it’s going to happen, mainly because I don’t think that the people in the U.S. have the musical chops to do it.
If I am wrong, that would be great. I would be very happy over that.
I offered another member of CAF (maybe it was you?) a dollar if, ten years from now, chant and polyphony, with pipe organ, are the norm in U.S. Masses. I am still willing to make that bet! I personally think that I will be keeping that dollar. If I am wrong, you’ll have yourself a dollar, and the Church will have the kind of music that the Vat II documents say She should have!
One more thing. I am not negative about the music that the Church wants. But I am extremely negative when people make the incorrect statement that no other music is allowed or appropriate in Mass but Gregorian chant, polyphony, and the pipe organ. This is NOT what the Church teaches. I don’t mind if people say that they PREFER traditional music or ancient forms of music in Church, but I mind terribly when people misrepresent the teachings of the Church. It’s OK to have a personal opinion or preference about various music forms, but it’s not OK to make that preference out to be the ONLY form that is allowed in Mass. That’s just not true, and when people say it, I tend to distrust almost everything else that they say.
It strikes me that some people do not want to hear anything but what they themselves believe to be true. Keep in mind that I am a convert to Catholicism. Back at the beginning of the decade, my husband and I were thrown out of our Protestant church. We had to come to terms with the fact that almost everything we had been taught and believed in was utter fallacy. We had to learn about a Church that we had always believed was a “cult” (the Catholic Church) and we had to wrestle with accepting that the Catholic Church really WAS the True Church of our Lord Jesus Christ. We spent several years studying, debating, reading, listening, and praying over all these things, and eventually got to the place where we rejected all that we had grown up with, all that our families believed, and accepted that the Catholic Church is and always has been THE Church, the ONE TRUE CHURCH, of Jesus Christ, the Son of God and Third Person of the Holy Trinity.
So I know that it isn’t easy to accept hard facts. I would encourage those who want to see reform in the Church music to please read the entire teaching of the Church in regards to music, and not just pick and choose those things that support your own point of view. It would be a lot easier for you to convince others (like me) of the legitimacy of your viewpoint if you were more understanding of the difficulties of establishing ancient music as the norm in Mass. It would also be helpful if you didn’t ridicule music that you don’t like, or imply that those who like such music are ignorant, or are “less Catholic.”
I hope that these words, hard as they are to hear, are helpful.
As for me, I am doing my best to help bring about improvements in the Catholic Church music in my parishes. This week, I will be spending my entire week, daytime and evening, at the Pipe Organ Encounter (POE) in our city. This event has attracted students from all over the United States. We will spend our mornings listening to lectures and demonstrations about the pipe organ, our afternoons taking private lessons and practicing on actual pipe organs, and our evenings on field trips to see various organs, and also hearing recitals by the faculty.
I am very excited about this! I do not know if I am capable (at age 54) of learning the pipe organ well, but I hope that I am able to learn it well enough to play for Masses in our city. There is great need for pipe organists. If I am not able to learn to play, at least I will know more about the instrument and perhaps will be able to encourage others to learn to play the pipe organ.
Another activity that I am involved with is chairing a youth classical music competition open to ten counties. This does not overtly involve liturgical music, but it does encourage music education and expertise in classical music. I’ve done this for five years, and plan to continue my chairmanship of the event.
A third activity that I am doing is volunteering at a traditional Catholic school in our city to accompany their choir and help them get more involved with the community in various musical venues, including the competition that I chair. (They need more promotion of their school, which I strongly support.) The music that they learn is mainly Latin and mainly acapella, but a pianist is still helpful as they learn the pieces.
I play for Masses in my parish and others, and I totally submit to the direction of the music director, who answers to the parish priests, who answer to the bishop, who is orthodox and conservative.
I would never dream of opposing any of the approved liturgical music, and as far as I know, the bishop has approved all of the music that we use in our parish and in the other parishes in our diocese.
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Monica4316
Guest
it is a valid point… I’m fine with P&W music outside of Mass, but in the Mass, Gregorian chant is best. (Just as the Church and Pope Benedict teach
).
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Monica4316
Guest
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Edward_H
Guest
Maybe some here in this forum don’t actually care what you want to see or not want to see.
You foreshorten Father’s points in order to try to twist it back on him. His main point was feeling is not transcendence.
We must decrease and He must increase.
Here is what was given to us:
These points are far more substantial than your bad characterization of it.
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Cat
Guest
Foreshorten is a word that I didn’t know the meaning of. I looked it up in several places. Webster’s defines it as "1. to shorten by proportionately contracting in the direction of depth so that an illusion of projection or extension in space is obtained 2. to make more compact.
So you are saying that I shortened Father’s comments? Yes, I did, because I quoted from Father’s comments. I used quotation marks.
I apologize that I didn’t make my point clear.
I have seen many Christians on this forum defend the use of Gregorian chant because “it makes them feel more reverent.” I have read this over and over again in the several years that I have been part of CAF.
I actually agree wholeheartedly with Father, and again I apologize that I didn’t make my point more clear.
I think there is danger in this feelings-based approach to Church music, because everyone will have a different feeling about various styles of music, and our feelings are unreliable and should not be used as a barometer of what is appropriate for Mass. That works both ways, BTW. There are many beautiful classical pieces that should not be used in the Mass, just as there are beautiful contemporary pieces that should not be used in Mass.
I agree with Father that many Protestant churches will try to create a “feeling” in their worship services. As an ex-evangelical Protestant, I can testify that this is true.
I agree with Father Smith–we should NOT prefer a certain music form in the Mass because of the way it makes us FEEL, but rather, we should accept music in the Mass because it is the music that the Church PREFERS. It has nothing to do with our feelings.
If the Mass music produces an emotional response in us, that’s good, but if it doesn’t, that doesn’t invalidate the music. It is still the proper music for the Mass because it is what the Church has decreed.
What I was trying to say in my post is I hope that I will not see Catholics posting here on CAF that a certain form of music makes them FEEL more reverent, and that’s why we should use that form of music in the Mass. Their feelings don’t matter. What matters is what the Church teaches about music in the Mass, and what the territorial authority approves for his parishes.
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Monica4316
Guest
I think Father made a great point that P&W music can cause a person to mistake feelings for a conversion.
S
Sarika
Guest
"
Again, it doesn’t have anything to do with “preferences”. I actually happen to like some P&W music (for use in non-liturgical settings). The idea put forth about the importance of using sacred styles is not a “bias”. Indeed, it is fact. Reading church documents, the history of sacred music etc., would help you a great deal. Sorry it wasn’t included in the
courses you took for your degrees.
The above shaded section includes part of my response. Sorry, I’m new around here.
P
Prometheum_x
Guest
There are a few issues that I have with this.
- What, precisely, is “praise and worship” music? It is an awful term (can a term be a phrase?) that tells us nothing about the music that is being referred to. I suppose one could say Christian liturgical music that uses contemporary instrumentation.
- Emotions. The worship of God certainly transcends the bounds of emotion, and we cheapen the Liturgy by seeing an emotional response as the primary purpose of the music. However, emotion is by no means excluded. Emotion which is integrated with the will such that the will is in command of it is good; the problem occurs when emotion subjects the will to its whims. This is an example of the virtue of chastity. Sacrosanctum Concilium says of music:
- The author often refers to the laws of sacred music, which is a concept referred to often in the liturgical documents of the 20th century. In studying them, I began to wonder if there was a document somewhere that listed all of them, but unfortunately, such a thing does not seem to exist, not in a form that would be convenient for debates such as these. It seems as though these laws are to be deduced by examining the entire body of sacred music, especially chant and polyphony, but most of them are only broadly stated. It would appear to me that the Church has been purposefully vague in this matter.
- Certain individuals might wish that the first option given in the GIRM for the Entrance Chant was selected more often (or exclusively), but for the US, we have been given a fourth option, which includes hymns and other sacred songs. One can argue that “praise and worship” music doesn’t even fit the criteria for that option, but frankly, that’s just their opinion. The Church praises chant and the organ, and in the same breath makes it clear that other styles of music are not necessarily excluded.
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