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- Status
J
JReducation
Guest
In the admonitions to the people of his time St. Francis of Assisi wrote
Of Perfect and Imperfect Obedience
*The Lord says in the Gospel: he āthat doth not renounce all that he possesses cannot beā a "disciple " and āhe that will save his life, shall lose it.ā That man leaves all he possesses and loses his body and his soul who abandons himself wholly to obedience in the hands of his superior, and whatever he does and saysāprovided he himself knows that what he does is good and not contrary to his [the superiorās] willāis true obedience. And if at times a subject sees things which would be better or more useful to his soul than those which the superior commands him, let him sacrifice his will to God, let him strive to fulfill the work enjoined by the superior. *This is true and charitable obedience which is pleasing to God and to oneās neighbor.
Of Perfect and Imperfect Obedience
*The Lord says in the Gospel: he āthat doth not renounce all that he possesses cannot beā a "disciple " and āhe that will save his life, shall lose it.ā That man leaves all he possesses and loses his body and his soul who abandons himself wholly to obedience in the hands of his superior, and whatever he does and saysāprovided he himself knows that what he does is good and not contrary to his [the superiorās] willāis true obedience. And if at times a subject sees things which would be better or more useful to his soul than those which the superior commands him, let him sacrifice his will to God, let him strive to fulfill the work enjoined by the superior. *This is true and charitable obedience which is pleasing to God and to oneās neighbor.
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pnewton
Guest
Obedience to only that which we agree with is not obedience at all. It is coincidence. True obedience is only found when we do not want to obey.
J
JM3
Guest
On the contrary, true obedience is obeying without considering what we want.
J
JM3
Guest
Sorry. That wasnāt the way I understood what you said.
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GodsLittleKayla
Guest
Iām afraid I donāt understand what the virtue here isā¦obeying someoneās opinion that is not fact? It is the opinion of some superiors that Harry Potter is sinful and should not be read by anyone, everā¦are they really more holy who obey that superior than the ones who say, no, I am in no sin by disobeying this opinion?
I understand the need for obediance to the law of Godā¦but I see nothing to be proud of here. Feels like playing the martyr to look pious
āOh look how hard it is to be obedient but I do it!ā
Noā¦youāre being obediant un-neededly to a non-binding, fallible opinion. How is that gonna get you to heaven better than the man who decides with prudence and prayer that this is not something requireing sacrifical obediance?
I understand the need for obediance to the law of Godā¦but I see nothing to be proud of here. Feels like playing the martyr to look pious
āOh look how hard it is to be obedient but I do it!ā
Noā¦youāre being obediant un-neededly to a non-binding, fallible opinion. How is that gonna get you to heaven better than the man who decides with prudence and prayer that this is not something requireing sacrifical obediance?
A
agnes_therese
Guest
You should read, for starters, St. Teresa of Avila and St. Faustina on the subject of obedience. Religious obedience would, indeed, give up reading Harry Potter if the superior said so. To refuse would be a violation of the vow of obedience. Keeping your vows is not āplaying the martyr to look pious.ā It is keeping a vow. Donāt you keep the promises you make?
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clem456
Guest
I love this definition of obedience.
Obedience has developed a bad reputation. It is equated with servitude, in itās most negative sense, in our society. Obedience is radically counter-cultural today, when we have a distorted sense of freedom and knowledge.
The cross is our best example of obedience. God himself, endures the ultimate injustice at the hands of men (anything we endure pales by comparison), but still he ālistens toā the calling of his Father to sacrifice for all of us.
From our Catechism:
vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p1s1c3a1.htm
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M-Dent
Guest
Most of us lay Catholics do not face the same difficulties a Padre Pio, Fr. Solanus Casey, Fr. Dwight Longenecker or many religious face(d). But we certainly can relate to the issue of humility and obedience due legitimate ecclesiastical superiors.
As Canon Law states,
I highlighted the areas I believe may be the greatest test of humility and a challenge to lay Catholics?
As Canon Law states,
Its apparent many lay Catholics today feel more comfortable speaking up regarding life in their parishes and also how they view or are treated by ecclesiastical authorities.
I highlighted the areas I believe may be the greatest test of humility and a challenge to lay Catholics?
L
L_Marshall
Guest
If the superior commands it, it ought to be obeyed. If itās the superiorās opinion, you donāt need to go out of your way to satisfy him.
For instance: Iāve had several superiors who go as far as to differentiate. If they want people to obey they just say āI charge you under Holy Obedience toā¦ā
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clem456
Guest
The beautiful thing about obedience is, it goes forward in trust. Obedience trusts the truth, beauty, and goodness that Jesus Christ is, as expressed through his Church. Obedience does not crush us, ultimately. Although we may suffer in it.
For me, ālistening toā the Church can give me hope if I trust that Christ will support and sustain me, even when I are asked to do something that threatens my comfort, or position, or personal preferences.
God will sustain us if we are faithfully obedient.
For me, ālistening toā the Church can give me hope if I trust that Christ will support and sustain me, even when I are asked to do something that threatens my comfort, or position, or personal preferences.
God will sustain us if we are faithfully obedient.
F
floresco
Guest
The traditional Catholic understanding of obedience we are discussing in this thread is central to my view of traditionalism. It is one of the traditions that I am accepting when I identify myself as a traditionalist. It is a tragic irony that so many associate traditionalism with disobedience.
J
JReducation
Guest
Why do you folks make this so complicated?
The traditional understanding of obedience was laid out by St Benedict. Obedience to legitimate authority, when that authority commands that which is not contrary to the commandments, regardless of how beneficial or how idiotic, it pleases God that we obey as Christ obeyed in all things but sin.
Stop over analyzing obedience. This is what has gotten so many Catholics (clergy, religious and laity) into trouble. They start asking so many questions that at the end they do the opposite of what they want to do. They want to be more like Christ, but at the end, they are further from Christ. The content of the order is not as pleasing to God as the detachment from self on the part of the person who obeys.
I always find it interesting that every time I post this citation from the admonitions of St. Francis, people on CAF just ride right over this admonition and donāt realize that itās very traditional, because heās just restating what St. Benedict had already defined for us as true and perfect obedience around the 6th century. This just blows traditionalism right out the window. We cannot say that we love tradition and ignore the masters of Christian Spirituality.
My community, Franciscan Brothers of Life, is a very traditional community. The first thing that we teach our postulants to both the consecrated life and the secular brothers is to obey because Christ obeyed. * āThen he went down to Nazareth with them and was obedient to them,ā *(LK 2:51).
Biblical examples that always come to my mind when I think of obedience are Abrahamās submission to Godās request to sacrifice Isaac, the boy Jesus leaving the temple with his parents and Jesus at the wedding in Cana.
The wedding at Cana is a very powerful lesson in obedience. Those of us who have grown up with Jewish mothers know what they can be like. They do not ask for a favor. They lay down the facts as if they were reporting the weather. āThey have no wine;ā and they expect you to do something about it. Itās a given that you know that you have to do something about it. A Jewish mom does not ask, āCan you do them a favor, because they have no wine?ā Also in that story we see Mary TELL the waiters, not ask or suggest, āDo whatever he tells you.ā The waiters bring the water to Jesus. They obey Mary and Christ not knowing what the outcome would be.
Another great example from Catholic history are Saints Dominic and Francis. The law of the Church was that there were to be no more rules for religious orders. If you wanted to start a new order, you had to take one of the existing rules and adapt it. Francis goes to Pope Innocent III not knowing of such a law. He hands the pope his rule for his brothers. Pope Innocent bypasses the law and approves the new rule. In comes Dominic with his rule for his Brother Preachers. The same pope tells him that the law says āno more rulesā. Dominic humbly adopts the Rule of St. Augustine for his preachers and fills in the blanks with his statutes, called constitution.
The beauty here is that Dominic does not argue because Francis got approval and he does not. Nor does Dominic feel slighted or resentment. He doesnāt cry āabuse of powerā. On the contrary, he responds with great love and obedience, so much love that he wrote into the statutes that he added to St. Augustineās rule that the Dominicans were never to find fault with the Franciscans, were to venerate them, protect them and welcome them as brothers. This still binds them to this day. Francis never reciprocated with the same kind of statute for our family. We dearly love the Dominicans and we refer to St. Dominic as Our Holy Father Dominic, because he and his sons have loved us.
When one obeys out of love, one often stirs up the love in the heart of the neighbor. There is no greater charity that teaching another how to obey out of pure love.
The traditional understanding of obedience was laid out by St Benedict. Obedience to legitimate authority, when that authority commands that which is not contrary to the commandments, regardless of how beneficial or how idiotic, it pleases God that we obey as Christ obeyed in all things but sin.
Stop over analyzing obedience. This is what has gotten so many Catholics (clergy, religious and laity) into trouble. They start asking so many questions that at the end they do the opposite of what they want to do. They want to be more like Christ, but at the end, they are further from Christ. The content of the order is not as pleasing to God as the detachment from self on the part of the person who obeys.
I always find it interesting that every time I post this citation from the admonitions of St. Francis, people on CAF just ride right over this admonition and donāt realize that itās very traditional, because heās just restating what St. Benedict had already defined for us as true and perfect obedience around the 6th century. This just blows traditionalism right out the window. We cannot say that we love tradition and ignore the masters of Christian Spirituality.
My community, Franciscan Brothers of Life, is a very traditional community. The first thing that we teach our postulants to both the consecrated life and the secular brothers is to obey because Christ obeyed. * āThen he went down to Nazareth with them and was obedient to them,ā *(LK 2:51).
Biblical examples that always come to my mind when I think of obedience are Abrahamās submission to Godās request to sacrifice Isaac, the boy Jesus leaving the temple with his parents and Jesus at the wedding in Cana.
The wedding at Cana is a very powerful lesson in obedience. Those of us who have grown up with Jewish mothers know what they can be like. They do not ask for a favor. They lay down the facts as if they were reporting the weather. āThey have no wine;ā and they expect you to do something about it. Itās a given that you know that you have to do something about it. A Jewish mom does not ask, āCan you do them a favor, because they have no wine?ā Also in that story we see Mary TELL the waiters, not ask or suggest, āDo whatever he tells you.ā The waiters bring the water to Jesus. They obey Mary and Christ not knowing what the outcome would be.
Another great example from Catholic history are Saints Dominic and Francis. The law of the Church was that there were to be no more rules for religious orders. If you wanted to start a new order, you had to take one of the existing rules and adapt it. Francis goes to Pope Innocent III not knowing of such a law. He hands the pope his rule for his brothers. Pope Innocent bypasses the law and approves the new rule. In comes Dominic with his rule for his Brother Preachers. The same pope tells him that the law says āno more rulesā. Dominic humbly adopts the Rule of St. Augustine for his preachers and fills in the blanks with his statutes, called constitution.
The beauty here is that Dominic does not argue because Francis got approval and he does not. Nor does Dominic feel slighted or resentment. He doesnāt cry āabuse of powerā. On the contrary, he responds with great love and obedience, so much love that he wrote into the statutes that he added to St. Augustineās rule that the Dominicans were never to find fault with the Franciscans, were to venerate them, protect them and welcome them as brothers. This still binds them to this day. Francis never reciprocated with the same kind of statute for our family. We dearly love the Dominicans and we refer to St. Dominic as Our Holy Father Dominic, because he and his sons have loved us.
When one obeys out of love, one often stirs up the love in the heart of the neighbor. There is no greater charity that teaching another how to obey out of pure love.
T
TimothyH
Guest
Sorry to snip you Brother but you are right. It is made way too complicated.
Not my will but thy will be done.
Thatās it. Itās really simple. Christ said it in the garden and thatās our example.
Can anyone imagine a marriage where husband and wife live this out in reality? I would love to go to a business meeting where everyone had this attitude. Imagine what we would be able to accomplish if everyone in the Church had this attitude.
-Tim-
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Lormar
Guest
Satan knows that.
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TimothyH
Guest
I just read the article. Fr. Longenecker makes a good point at the end.
***The root of the word āobedienceā is oboedire which means āto listenā. ***
The first words in St. Benedictās rule are
Listen. Listen my son, with the ears of your heart.
This is something I struggle with. If I want to be obedient as Christ was obedient, I have to start by shutting up and listening. That doesnāt mean just hearing the words spoken but listening to what is being said.
-Tim-
***The root of the word āobedienceā is oboedire which means āto listenā. ***
The first words in St. Benedictās rule are
Listen. Listen my son, with the ears of your heart.
This is something I struggle with. If I want to be obedient as Christ was obedient, I have to start by shutting up and listening. That doesnāt mean just hearing the words spoken but listening to what is being said.
-Tim-
J
JReducation
Guest
Tim, as all of you know, Iām a revert to the religious life. I left at time when the religious life was in transition. Rather than submit to the will of God and walk through the dark night, I asked to be released of my vows.
However, Godās plans for us cannot be handcuffed. It was his plan that I go through a dark night, because it is necessary for my soul. After leaving, I met a young woman, married, had children. There was an accident. I lost my wife, father and one of my sons. I had one of two choices. I could curse the darkness at that moment or I could choose to obey Godās invitation to walk into the night not seeing the hand that guided me, but trusting that He was guiding me toward light.
The end result was that I raised two wonderful Catholic adults. One serves children and adolescent with disabilities. She was trained as a journalist. After receiving her MA in journalism, she was hired by a major news company and resigned in 24 hours. She came home and said, āI donāt belong there.ā She went back to school for a second Masterās degree in brain development and developmental disabilities. Today, sheās a therapist for adolescents with intellectual disabilities. Everyday she is punched, scratched, hit and spat upon. Every night she goes home to her husband filled with confidence that this is where God wants her to be. Her husband and she have prayed over this and have concluded that this is where she will find Christ and that his role is to be like Joseph was to Mary. He is there to support and protect her.
My son, who is an autistic savant, went on to college. He found that he could not keep up. He came home and said, āDad, is it ok if I live at home for a while?ā While at home he trained in auto mechanics, but continued to work in art. He is a full-time auto mechanic and in the evenings and weekends, he illustrates books. He has gone back to school and completed his degree in fine art. When he turned 21, I gave him everything I owned, because I was going to return to the religious life.
He took the assets that I gave him and the first thing that he did was to purchase a home in the poorest part of town and he gave me the keys saying, āDad, I know that you canāt own anything. But I know that you belong with the poor. Live here with your brothers. When you no longer need the house, just give it back to me. Itās only a loaner.ā I asked him why he was doing this. He had enough money to buy a nice home in a nice community. His answer was typical autistic, which is usually very concrete. āIām not interested in the middle class BS. I just want to do something good for others. What is wrong with doing something good for other people? I thought thatās what Jesus wanted us to do?ā
I returned to religious life, but was soon told to leave my larger community and start a new society of Franciscans who would live the Gospel according to the Franciscan tradition of the 13th century, but with one slight twist. Our life is the same as the first generation of brothers and sisters who followed Francis. Our apostolic work is to proclaim the Gospel of Life as St. Maximilian Kolbe did at Auschwitz, to be totally immersed in the Gospel so that when Christ calls us to give all for the life of a father and his family, we can obey without hesitation.
This time, I did not resist and did not ask the pope to let me off the hook. I have tried to obey. Each day, obedience becomes more difficult. There is no resting place on this side of heaven.
It is difficult to pray when one feels misunderstood. It is difficult to love when others refuse to listen. It is difficult to be kind when others are unkind. It is difficult to lead ones brothers, when God takes away your health little by little one day at a time, but expects you to lead and govern them. It is difficult to believe in the Church when Catholics denounce her as being in chaos and half empty. But obedience has taught me that no matter what, it is always necessary to do what God places before me at the present moment, no matter how simple, ridiculous or foolish it may seem.
I too struggle with obedience. But Iām not sure if my struggle with obedience is as great as the struggle of the Immaculate for my soul. The only advice I can give to anyone is to ask her what I ask her every day.
āMother, please ask your Son to remember me, because sometimes I forget Him.ā
However, Godās plans for us cannot be handcuffed. It was his plan that I go through a dark night, because it is necessary for my soul. After leaving, I met a young woman, married, had children. There was an accident. I lost my wife, father and one of my sons. I had one of two choices. I could curse the darkness at that moment or I could choose to obey Godās invitation to walk into the night not seeing the hand that guided me, but trusting that He was guiding me toward light.
The end result was that I raised two wonderful Catholic adults. One serves children and adolescent with disabilities. She was trained as a journalist. After receiving her MA in journalism, she was hired by a major news company and resigned in 24 hours. She came home and said, āI donāt belong there.ā She went back to school for a second Masterās degree in brain development and developmental disabilities. Today, sheās a therapist for adolescents with intellectual disabilities. Everyday she is punched, scratched, hit and spat upon. Every night she goes home to her husband filled with confidence that this is where God wants her to be. Her husband and she have prayed over this and have concluded that this is where she will find Christ and that his role is to be like Joseph was to Mary. He is there to support and protect her.
My son, who is an autistic savant, went on to college. He found that he could not keep up. He came home and said, āDad, is it ok if I live at home for a while?ā While at home he trained in auto mechanics, but continued to work in art. He is a full-time auto mechanic and in the evenings and weekends, he illustrates books. He has gone back to school and completed his degree in fine art. When he turned 21, I gave him everything I owned, because I was going to return to the religious life.
He took the assets that I gave him and the first thing that he did was to purchase a home in the poorest part of town and he gave me the keys saying, āDad, I know that you canāt own anything. But I know that you belong with the poor. Live here with your brothers. When you no longer need the house, just give it back to me. Itās only a loaner.ā I asked him why he was doing this. He had enough money to buy a nice home in a nice community. His answer was typical autistic, which is usually very concrete. āIām not interested in the middle class BS. I just want to do something good for others. What is wrong with doing something good for other people? I thought thatās what Jesus wanted us to do?ā
I returned to religious life, but was soon told to leave my larger community and start a new society of Franciscans who would live the Gospel according to the Franciscan tradition of the 13th century, but with one slight twist. Our life is the same as the first generation of brothers and sisters who followed Francis. Our apostolic work is to proclaim the Gospel of Life as St. Maximilian Kolbe did at Auschwitz, to be totally immersed in the Gospel so that when Christ calls us to give all for the life of a father and his family, we can obey without hesitation.
This time, I did not resist and did not ask the pope to let me off the hook. I have tried to obey. Each day, obedience becomes more difficult. There is no resting place on this side of heaven.
It is difficult to pray when one feels misunderstood. It is difficult to love when others refuse to listen. It is difficult to be kind when others are unkind. It is difficult to lead ones brothers, when God takes away your health little by little one day at a time, but expects you to lead and govern them. It is difficult to believe in the Church when Catholics denounce her as being in chaos and half empty. But obedience has taught me that no matter what, it is always necessary to do what God places before me at the present moment, no matter how simple, ridiculous or foolish it may seem.
I too struggle with obedience. But Iām not sure if my struggle with obedience is as great as the struggle of the Immaculate for my soul. The only advice I can give to anyone is to ask her what I ask her every day.
āMother, please ask your Son to remember me, because sometimes I forget Him.ā
G
GodsLittleKayla
Guest
But that makes no sense. Are we just talking about religious brothers/sisters/priests, or do you mean laypeople? I sure as heck am not going to obey a priest if he tells me, You must stop wearing sleeveless blouses/ eating meat on non-Lenten Fridays/you must cover your hair for church.
Just because someone COMMANDS something, doesnt mean itās still not their OPINION!
J
JReducation
Guest
Legitimate authority has a right to command based on its opinion. The question is not whether it is the personal opinion of the priest or not. To God this point is irrelevant. Godās logic is not as flawed as human logic. Godās logic is about perfect virtue.
If the priest in question is my spiritual director, then it seems that I voluntarily placed myself in his hands to guide me along the journey. By doing so, I gave him the authority to command me. In giving him the authority to command me, I implicitly agreed to obey.
On the other hand, if the priest in question is speaking to me outside of a formal relationship such as spiritual director and directee or confessor and penitent, then heās not exercising authority over me. Iām free to politely bypass what he suggests.
Donāt look at whether this is his personal opinion or not. To God, this question is irrelevant. Is this relationship between you and this priest a formal relationship where he is in authority? If so, then you must obey. If not, then you thank him for his suggestion and you do as you think best.
As I keep saying, donāt make this so complicated.
Pope Leo XIII once casually commented to an American cardinal that he doubted there were too many Americans in heaven. The cardinal was shocked and asked why. The pope responded that Americans were very fond of their opinions and their freedom to the exclusion of Godās opinion and Godās rights.
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