Fr. Dwight Longenecker: No Obedience No Heaven

[GodsLittleKayla]

So…if I pop into a random booth for confession, and he tells me I’m REQUIRED to veil for mass, and I decline, I’m going to hell (since the article is called No Obedience, No Heaven)

Wow.

Most of the priests I’ve asked advice for have been grumpy, pissy, and yelled at me hard enough to make me cry. If you think I’m going to obey the words of someone whodoesn’t even listen to me, you’re NUTS

 

[TimothyH]

It is difficult to pray when one feels misunderstood. It is difficult to love when others refuse to listen. It is difficult to be kind when others are unkind. It is difficult to lead ones brothers, when God takes away your health little by little one day at a time, but expects you to lead and govern them. It is difficult to believe in the Church when Catholics denounce her as being in chaos and half empty. But obedience has taught me that no matter what, it is always necessary to do what God places before me at the present moment, no matter how simple, ridiculous or foolish it may seem.

If the priest in question is my spiritual director, then it seems that I voluntarily placed myself in his hands to guide me along the journey. By doing so, I gave him the authority to command me. In giving him the authority to command me, I implicitly agreed to obey.

I was going to ask you how we who do not have a structure such as a religious community, prelature or lay association, how we might be better guided into the evangelical counsel of obedience.

For example, I work from home. I could do anything I want all day long and my boss would never know. I am the head of the household - in my house I make the rules. What obedience do I place myself under? What guidance do I have? I sometimes feel like I’m adrift in the ocean or lost in the woods.

Well, I’ve learned not to badger God for answers. I’m glad I didn’t badger a Franciscan either.

While driving around to pick up my daughter from school and get some goodies for Bible study tonight, the voice whispered, “You have been talking about a spiritual director for some time now, haven’t you?” Then I peeked into this thread and saw your next post about placing oneself under obedience to a spiritual director.

Amazing how God works.

I think it is time. I’m going to make some calls tomorrow.

-Tim-

 

[floresco]

I prayed for a spiritual director for years without finding one. And then the idea came to me that God wanted me to be more obedient to my husband before I tried obedience to a director.

 

[pnewton]

I’m afraid I don’t understand what the virtue here is…obeying someone’s opinion that is not fact? It is the opinion of some superiors that Harry Potter is sinful and should not be read by anyone, ever…are they really more holy who obey that superior than the ones who say, no, I am in no sin by disobeying this opinion?

They may or may not be more holy, but the particular act of obeying legitimate authority (if it is legitimate authority) instead of just doing what we want does build holiness, as opposed to pride. The opposite of obedience is non servium, the refusal to serve, the expression of Satan toward God.

In the case of Harry Potter, I seriously doubt any priest or bishop is going to ask that the Catholics in their area. However, if they did, then such a request should be taken seriously, and not denied for a reason as unimportant as, " I want to read it".

So…if I pop into a random booth for confession, and he tells me I’m REQUIRED to veil for mass, and I decline, I’m going to hell (since the article is called No Obedience, No Heaven)

I think the title of the thread is unfortunate. Of course disobedience does not send us to Hell. However, stubborn pride is the very definition of Hell.

 

[GodsLittleKayla]

They may or may not be more holy, but the particular act of obeying legitimate authority (if it is legitimate authority) instead of just doing what we want does build holiness, as opposed to pride. The opposite of obedience is non servium, the refusal to serve, the expression of Satan toward God.

In the case of Harry Potter, I seriously doubt any priest or bishop is going to ask that the Catholics in their area. However, if they did, then such a request should be taken seriously, and not denied for a reason as unimportant as, " I want to read it".

I think the title of the thread is unfortunate. Of course disobedience does not send us to Hell. However, stubborn pride is the very definition of Hell.

Your responses make the most sense of this thread and what it intended to say, thank you

 

[pnewton]

Your responses make the most sense of this thread and what it intended to say, thank you

Thank you very much. JR is right that we are making it more difficult than it is.
No one choice sends us to Hell. The title is somewhat dramatic. The priest’s story is simply that he did not force his own will. He used obedience to the bishop as a guide in following the will of God.

 

[GodsLittleKayla]

Thank you very much. JR is right that we are making it more difficult than it is.
No one choice sends us to Hell. The title is somewhat dramatic. The priest’s story is simply that he did not force his own will. He used obedience to the bishop as a guide in following the will of God.

and that is a statement I do not disagree with. As somewhat rather obsessive, following a priests orders to stop worrying and try to forget anxieties is one I follow though I find it hard. I agree that the title of the thread/article is a bit misleading

 

[JM3]

ignatius.com/Products/WG-P/the-will-of-god.aspx

The Will of God by Fr. Kenneth Baker, S.J.

Obedience is defined as the moral virtue that inclines the human will to comply with the will of another who has the right and authority to command. For Christians it is also a supernatural virtue because it rests on God’s almighty power as our Creator and on the submission that all creatures owe to him. This means that the lower submits to the control of the higher. In the context of human affairs this means that God has delegated his authority to certain individuals who, as lawful superiors, create principles of unity within society.

The purpose of the state is to achieve the common good of all of its citizens…

In order to achieve its purpose the state must be able to command certain acts or forbid them. In order to command or forbid, the state must be endowed with authority that is recognized by its citizens. Since God wills the existence of the state, for the good of man, and since the state cannot function without some authority over its citizens, it follows that the authority of the state comes from God. Thus, in reply to Pontius Pilate’s question to Jesus, “Do you not know that I have the power to release you, and power to crucify you?” Jesus replied: “You would have no power over me unless it had been given you from above” (Jn19:10-11). Jesus thereby indicates the divine source of authority, even though that authority exists in a pagan state such as the Roman Empire.

A very good book that is worth the read.

 

[choliks]

So…if I pop into a random booth for confession, and he tells me I’m REQUIRED to veil for mass, and I decline, I’m going to hell (since the article is called No Obedience, No Heaven)

Wow.

Most of the priests I’ve asked advice for have been grumpy, pissy, and yelled at me hard enough to make me cry. If you think I’m going to obey the words of someone whodoesn’t even listen to me, you’re NUTS

Now the priest may be grumpy when you asked for his advice, but have you imagined Christ still following the will of the Father, even if He felt He was forsaken?

I think the point of obeying the priest is not what he commanded, but the emptying of one’s self out of love. That’s what I see in Christ’s obedience. From a man’s point of view, the will of the Father didn’t make any sense. Jesus must be asking himself: why does he need to face death? But He still responded with complete and loving obedience.

“My Father, if it be possible, let this chalice pass from me. Nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.”

They may or may not be more holy, but the particular act of obeying legitimate authority (if it is legitimate authority) instead of just doing what we want does build holiness, as opposed to pride. The opposite of obedience is non servium, the refusal to serve, the expression of Satan toward God.

In the case of Harry Potter, I seriously doubt any priest or bishop is going to ask that the Catholics in their area. However, if they did, then such a request should be taken seriously, and not denied for a reason as unimportant as, " I want to read it".

I think the title of the thread is unfortunate. Of course disobedience does not send us to Hell. However, stubborn pride is the very definition of Hell.

Thank you very much. JR is right that we are making it more difficult than it is.
No one choice sends us to Hell. The title is somewhat dramatic. The priest’s story is simply that he did not force his own will. He used obedience to the bishop as a guide in following the will of God.

and that is a statement I do not disagree with. As somewhat rather obsessive, following a priests orders to stop worrying and try to forget anxieties is one I follow though I find it hard. I agree that the title of the thread/article is a bit misleading

IMHO, the title of the blog makes sense to me, even without reading the content. It’s always obedience, following the will of the Father, that brings us closer to Him (i.e. heaven). It’s as simple as that.

 

[choliks]

I prayed for a spiritual director for years without finding one. And then the idea came to me that God wanted me to be more obedient to my husband before I tried obedience to a director.

 

[CorieDreams]

Now the priest may be grumpy when you asked for his advice, but have you imagined Christ still following the will of the Father, even if He felt He was forsaken?

I think the point of obeying the priest is not what he commanded, but the emptying of one’s self out of love. That’s what I see in Christ’s obedience. From a man’s point of view, the will of the Father didn’t make any sense. Jesus must be asking himself: why does he need to face death? But He still responded with complete and loving obedience.

“My Father, if it be possible, let this chalice pass from me. Nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.”

“No obediance No Heaven” is a title that needs a HECK of a lot of context that I don’t feel is provided well in the article

IMHO, the title of the blog makes sense to me, even without reading the content. It’s always obedience, following the will of the Father, that brings us closer to Him (i.e. heaven). It’s as simple as that.

 

[JReducation]

Well, I’ve learned not to badger God for answers. I’m glad I didn’t badger a Franciscan either.

-Tim-

They don’t call St. Francis The Mirror of Perfection for nothing. I think this is why most of our saints after the Middle Ages were either Franciscan religious or Secular Franciscans. There are some real spiritual power houses among the Secular Franciscans. Two who come to mind are Francis de Sales and John Vianney.

Francis de Sales’ The Introduction to the Devout Life, is really spiritual direction “a la Franciscan.” That’s why it’s so simple, but it’s so so profound.

ignatius.com/Products/WG-P/the-will-of-god.aspx

The Will of God by Fr. Kenneth Baker, S.J.

A very good book that is worth the read.

I’m going to look this book up. Thanks.

I prayed for a spiritual director for years without finding one. And then the idea came to me that God wanted me to be more obedient to my husband before I tried obedience to a director.

Husbands and spiritual directors are not mutually exclusive. Very often they work very well together. Brother Andre Besset was an awesome spiritual director and most of his directees were married women.

 

[pnewton]

IMHO, the title of the blog makes sense to me, even without reading the content. It’s always obedience, following the will of the Father, that brings us closer to Him (i.e. heaven). It’s as simple as that.

Yes, I see what you mean, and I have to say that you are right. I think what the above poster took it to mean that we go to Hell for disobedience, is what I really object to. Yes, we do need to learn the humility that obedience teaches to go to Heaven. Yet disobedience to authority does not by necessity lead to Hell. It is not good for the soul, but it can be overcome.

I think also when we think of Church authority we need to break out of the military paradigm of following orders. Church authority is that of a father to his children, or a shepherd to the sheep. It is “for our own good.” Sure there are exceptions, wolves who take the mantle of the shepherd, but that is always an exception and I think we have have a conscience (and a Bible) that let’s us know when we need make this exception.

 

[clem456]

I apologize If I contributed to the complications.
This is the short story of obedience in my family.
My father grew up in the '30s and '40s. He was -not- the first son in a very patriarchal family. Obedience in our family carried a heavy element of servitude, on the farm and in Church. Obedience was heavy on consequences and lacking in hope in the promises of Christ, short on encouragement.
To avoid being crushed by it, he resisted it. Obedience held nothing of value for him. There was no motivation to obey, as soon as he was not forced to obey, he began to carve out a life. He attended Mass faithfully all his life, but rolled his eyes at Church moral and social teaching, and smirked at those in authority. He was a rebellious man, but a good productive citizen. He owned his own business successfully, he could never have worked for anyone else. He trusted no one. He raised us to be skeptical of any authority, independent, self sufficient, to verify before trusting. He did not want his children to be “under the thumb”. He believed that through complete freedom and considering all options equally, we would arrive at a successful life. He did a great job at providing us that “freedom”.

Well, that “freedom” didn’t work out too well for me. I’ve had to learn the value of obedience to my family, my Church, God…the hard way. I’ve had to learn to focus first on trusting in God and his promises, to learn that obedience will not crush me or take away my real freedom. If God’s love sustains me, there is nothing else I need, so I am free to obey. God will hold me up, and not crush me in slavery.
This is counter-intuitive for me, so it probably sounds complicated cause I have to think about it more than others do.

 

[JReducation]

I apologize If I contributed to the complications.
This is the short story of obedience in my family.
My father grew up in the '30s and '40s. He was -not- the first son in a very patriarchal family. Obedience in our family carried a heavy element of servitude, on the farm and in Church. Obedience was heavy on consequences and lacking in hope in the promises of Christ, short on encouragement.
To avoid being crushed by it, he resisted it. Obedience held nothing of value for him. There was no motivation to obey, as soon as he was not forced to obey, he began to carve out a life. He attended Mass faithfully all his life, but rolled his eyes at Church moral and social teaching, and smirked at those in authority. He was a rebellious man, but a good productive citizen. He owned his own business successfully, he could never have worked for anyone else. He trusted no one. He raised us to be skeptical of any authority, independent, self sufficient, to verify before trusting. He did not want his children to be “under the thumb”. He believed that through complete freedom and considering all options equally, we would arrive at a successful life. He did a great job at providing us that “freedom”.

Well, that “freedom” didn’t work out too well for me. I’ve had to learn the value of obedience to my family, my Church, God…the hard way. I’ve had to learn to focus first on trusting in God and his promises, to learn that obedience will not crush me or take away my real freedom. If God’s love sustains me, there is nothing else I need, so I am free to obey. God will hold me up, and not crush me in slavery.
This is counter-intuitive for me, so it probably sounds complicated cause I have to think about it more than others do.

Thank you so much for sharing your story. Your father’s experience is not unique. As much as many people complain about women religious today being “feminists” and more, there is always a story behind every human being.

Your father’s story was exactly what transpired in women’s religious communities and in communities that had brothers. Priests kept everyone under the thumb using obedience as the threat. They were very cruel, dehumanizing, and very often they caused great psychological damage.

It is also true that many saints came out of this. Those whose faith was stronger put up with this nonsense and offered the suffering up to Christ. It’s not say that they did not suffer what they should not have suffered. It’s simply that just as some people are determined to keep others under their thumb, sometimes the underdog is equally stubborn and is determined not to cave in. Most of our saints were very stubborn men and women. They had to be in order to live through under a system where obedience was out of fear rather than out of love.

Fortunately, when Vatican II produced Perfectae Caritatis and Bl. John Paul produced Vita Consecrata, many of us realized that we had to go back to the ideals of the founders. New communities have been founded that more closely observe the ideals of Benedict, Augustine, Francis, Dominic and Teresa. Some of the older communities have also embraced a return.

At the same time, some communities of women and brothers did what your father did, they moved forward and became very good at what they do (teaching, healthcare, etc), but they also fled from all authority not believing that authority and obedience could be loving. They got into trouble, because they over analyzed obedience and over defined it to the point that it became too complicated for them to follow and too complicated for them to teach it to the laity and show the laity how to obey.

Thank for sharing this. This is an important part of our Church’s collective history.

 

[Lormar]

Thank you so much for sharing your story. Your father’s experience is not unique. As much as many people complain about women religious today being “feminists” and more, there is always a story behind every human being.

Your father’s story was exactly what transpired in women’s religious communities and in communities that had brothers. ** Priests kept everyone under the thumb using obedience as the threat. ** They were very cruel, dehumanizing, and very often they caused great psychological damage.

It is also true that many saints came out of this. Those whose faith was stronger put up with this nonsense and offered the suffering up to Christ. It’s not say that they did not suffer what they should not have suffered. It’s simply that just as some people are determined to keep others under their thumb, sometimes the underdog is equally stubborn and is determined not to cave in. Most of our saints were very stubborn men and women. They had to be in order to live through under a system where obedience was out of fear rather than out of love.

Fortunately, when Vatican II produced Perfectae Caritatis and Bl. John Paul produced Vita Consecrata, many of us realized that we had to go back to the ideals of the founders. New communities have been founded that more closely observe the ideals of Benedict, Augustine, Francis, Dominic and Teresa. Some of the older communities have also embraced a return.

At the same time, some communities of women and brothers did what your father did, they moved forward and became very good at what they do (teaching, healthcare, etc), but they also fled from all authority not believing that authority and obedience could be loving. They got into trouble, because they over analyzed obedience and over defined it to the point that it became too complicated for them to follow and too complicated for them to teach it to the laity and show the laity how to obey.

Thank for sharing this. This is an important part of our Church’s collective history.

It has been my experience that they still do this (not all, but some) - use “obedience” as a cudgel. You may not get told you are going to hell, but you are told that the salvation of your soul hangs in the balance unless you obey.

 

[JReducation]

It has been my experience that they still do this (not all, but some) - use “obedience” as a cudgel. You may not get told you are going to hell, but you are told that the salvation of your soul hangs in the balance unless you obey.

Sometimes they’re right. We do live in a Church that is legitimately governed by the Heiros (priests) and that has temporal and spiritual authority. Because we live in a world of sinful people, there is always going to be someone who uses authority for his own agenda. That’s the definition of abuse of authority.

Nonetheless, as St. Benedict and St. Francis tell us, if the person in authority commands sin, do not obey. If he commands anything else, no matter how idiotic, obey. God is pleased by your willingness to obey.

 

[floresco]

Husbands and spiritual directors are not mutually exclusive. Very often they work very well together. Brother Andre Besset was an awesome spiritual director and most of his directees were married women.

Yes. I now have both a husband and a spiritual director and there is no conflict. But, I think that God used the years I spent waiting for a director to teach me to see my husband as a source of spiritual wisdom and someone I ought to obey.

 

[Jaysuitical]

I think the good father was over-scrupulous in equating the kind of disobedience which is rooted in opinion and the disobedience which is obedience to the superior’s superior. This over-scrupulosity is what got the Church into trouble – all it took was to get a bunch of bishops and theologians who held the authority of the Holy See as nugatory into positions of authority, and then all the vocations within the diocese would be delayed, deferred, often destroyed, as was the case in my home diocese, where the diocese was in fact wholly governed for fifteen years by priests in the sexual promiscuity network and their accomplices.

The matter is ‘legitimate authority’ and illegitimate authority is that which invokes its position without the possessor of authority having the faintest intention of obeying his superiors or of transmitting their instructions.

 

[JReducation]

I think the good father was over-scrupulous in equating the kind of disobedience which is rooted in opinion and the disobedience which is obedience to the superior’s superior. This over-scrupulosity is what got the Church into trouble – all it took was to get a bunch of bishops and theologians who held the authority of the Holy See as nugatory into positions of authority, and then all the vocations within the diocese would be delayed, deferred, often destroyed, as was the case in my home diocese, where the diocese was in fact wholly governed for fifteen years by priests in the sexual promiscuity network and their accomplices.

The matter is ‘legitimate authority’ and illegitimate authority is that which invokes its position without the possessor of authority having the faintest intention of obeying his superiors or of transmitting their instructions.

We need you to separate things here. Your premise that Father is being scrupulous is one thing. Your complaints about your diocese is another, which has nothing to do with Father.

I’m not curious about what happened in your diocese, but I am curious as to why you think that he’s being scrupulous.