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parvenu74
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According to Sacrosanctum Concilium, the Church only wants Gregorian Chant …“all things being equal.” So when someone decides that “appropriate folk music” makes things less than equal, Sacrosanctum Concilium’s suggestions on Church Music is tossed aside. Pretty much all of Sacrosanctum Concilium is a gigantic loophole allowing anyone to do anything they want to the liturgy and actually claim that it’s “in the spirit of VaticanII.”
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ChrisPietraszko
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Ani_Ibi
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Yep, it’s feel-good theology. Kumbaya around the campfire.
Someone said to me today that folks stay uninformed because we let them get away with it. When did we start expecting less that the best from each other in the Catholic Church? How did that happen? Thoughts? Anyone?
Once again, show me just one person who left the Church because of a major problem they had with doctrine and I’ll show you someone who was not informed about what Church doctrine actually is.
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Ani_Ibi
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Oh I absolutely agree. Because there is no such thing as a Liberal Catholic or a Conservative Catholic. There are only Catholics.
Those who oppose Magisterial teaching on faith and morals place themselves in a position of responsibility vis a vis learning why the Magisterium teaches what it does.
Those who are uninterested in what learning why the Magisterium teaches what it does but who persist in opposing Magisterial teaching place themselves in a position of rebellion – perhaps even heresy and/or scandal.
They cannot reasonably be thought of as Liberal nor Conservative nor – I venture to point out – Catholic.
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bear06
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Uh, first of all, I didn’t say Traditions. I said traditions and disciplines. Please note the difference. Secondly, how am I taking what you have said out of context?
I ask you where in practice this has happened? Again, the disciplines of the Church should never be labeled extremist.
I’m not a traditionalist but I think these are your definitions, not the Church’s.
Sigh! It would appear that we’re talking about two different things. I’m talking about the traditions, teaching and disciplines of the Church and your talking about someone else’s ideas. It doesn’t really matter what individuals say what. What does matter is the Church’s disciplines, teaching and traditions. Again, I’m not sure what extremist positions you are speaking of but I can suggest that you read up on ecclesiastical disciplines.
Well, I think I somewhat agree with you but you seemed to be challenging disciplines of the Church with the two examples you gave in your original post. Hockey and pharisees bad and I’d also throw in radical anyones but I still feel the need to point out that the rules for fasting and abstinence were never extremist nor was the banned book list. I’d also like to point out that we’re all quite capable of reasoning ourselves into hell.
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ChrisPietraszko
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You are saying that I disagree with the moral authority of the Church. I do not and said nothing of the sort. It seems like you have some pressupositions about what I believe. Perhaps phrasing in question form rather than attacking may be more beneficial to a reasonable discussion…not everything is a war.
This has happened in my church, and from an official speaker and missonary from Renewal Ministries Mich., who Spoke at my Parish. Plus in studying the changes that Vatican II brought about, there was an obvious calling from the HOLY SPIRIT to bring reform into the Church. Obviously that has taken a fare more damaging interpretation today, but originally the need for reform was justified
.Wrong again. Please this is utterly offensive. I am studying Roman Catholicism and Philosophy, please do not assume that I am an idiot or illinformed. This is really unchristian and condicending, and I say this out of charity for you, you are coming off as a “KNOW-IT-ALL”. This was given in a talk from the Official missionary from Renewal ministries. Plus please don’t commit Ad Hominum fallacies (or is it ad hoc). The fact that it is my Own definition does not mean that it lacks credibility. You are rather “attacking me” than my argument, that is rhetoric.
There is a cultural dimension that we should not so easily ignore. We must always watch out for when our culture is influencing our church rather than our Church influencing our Culture. That has a lot to do with our baptismal call to be prophets. And yes I am aware of ecclesiastical disciplines, thanks for the suggestion. I suggest you read Chesterton’s “Dumb OX” book on Aquinas, it explains the pendulum swing and the dynamics our culture need today in a moderate fashion.
I’m not challening them, perhaps, I am challenging the “attitude” of being to busy damning people that we fail to show people a balanced perspective between the real existence of hell, and the real existence of Christ’s infinite mercy. That is what I was trying to emphasize by example, not by doctrine.Well, I think I somewhat agree with you but you seemed to be challenging disciplines of the Church with the two examples you gave in your original post. Hockey and pharisees bad and I’d also throw in radical anyones but I still feel the need to point out that the rules for fasting and abstinence were never extremist nor was the banned book list. I’d also like to point out that we’re all quite capable of reasoning ourselves into hell.
Yes and reasoning ourselves into hell is called: rationalization. Are you accusing me of doing that? You should probably get to know me before you start making such blanket, passive-agressive statements.
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ChrisPietraszko
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Bear:
ALSO if you have not already read my original post (which only had this entire side debate) please read it: (number 34).
ALSO if you have not already read my original post (which only had this entire side debate) please read it: (number 34).
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blackrobe
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You have unwittingly nailed the point of contention: It is not “our”
Mass nor may we “do” with it what we please with no regard for the norms established by the Church.
Thank you for neatly summing up the fundamental error of false liturgical “reform.” After you have read and understood Sacrosanctum Concilium, check out *Sacramentum *Redemptionis and Sacramentum Caritatis.
JSA
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ChrisPietraszko
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One more thing Bear: Here is a quote from the Pope:
As it is seen, Irenaeus does not limit himself to the definition of the concept of Tradition. His tradition, the uninterrupted Tradition, **is not **traditionalism, because this Tradition is always internally vivified by the Holy Spirit, who makes it live again, who makes it interpreted and included in the vitality of the Church.
“Benedict XVI
General Audience, March 28, 2007”
Funny I heard it before the Pope even said it…
EDIT:
vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2007/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20070328_en.html
Here is the link to his homily on this subject. You will notice he describes Tradition from the passing down from the Apostles, through the livlihood of the Holy Spirit (Faithful people transmitting the Tradition to the next generation (youth)), where as traditionalism is described rather as a fruitless type of thing.
As it is seen, Irenaeus does not limit himself to the definition of the concept of Tradition. His tradition, the uninterrupted Tradition, **is not **traditionalism, because this Tradition is always internally vivified by the Holy Spirit, who makes it live again, who makes it interpreted and included in the vitality of the Church.
“Benedict XVI
General Audience, March 28, 2007”
Funny I heard it before the Pope even said it…
EDIT:
vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2007/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20070328_en.html
Here is the link to his homily on this subject. You will notice he describes Tradition from the passing down from the Apostles, through the livlihood of the Holy Spirit (Faithful people transmitting the Tradition to the next generation (youth)), where as traditionalism is described rather as a fruitless type of thing.
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JKirkLVNV
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Chris: I’m not sure I’m understanding your points. Perhaps you could clarify. Also, Bear is a person of great integrity and she isn’t attacking you. I think she’s seeking to clarify what you mean. For example, the toothpaste. You said in your post that it was once a mortal sin to swallow toothpaste prior to Mass. Bear simply pointed out that even eating food prior to Mass was not a mortal sin provided you did not participate in Communion. Could you clarify what you meant?
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bear06
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You are saying that I disagree with the moral authority of the Church. I do not and said nothing of the sort. It seems like you have some pressupositions about what I believe. Perhaps phrasing in question form rather than attacking may be more beneficial to a reasonable discussion…not everything is a war.
Sigh! You mentioned toothpaste/mortal sin and banned book list as extremist, did you not? I was addressing these two statements. The first was incorrect and the second was not extremist and is still in force. All of this was based on YOUR comments that both of these were extremists when one was not accurate and the other not extremist. It had nothing to do with pressupositions.
This has happened in my church, and from an official speaker and missonary from Renewal Ministries Mich., who Spoke at my Parish. Plus in studying the changes that Vatican II brought about, there was an obvious calling from the HOLY SPIRIT to bring reform into the Church. Obviously that has taken a fare more damaging interpretation today, but originally the need for reform was justified
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bear06
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You are 11 posts in here. If you post this
it won’t be seen from the Irenaeous quote in the Holy Father’s document. On these forums, traditionalism has a far different definition. Traditionalism isn’t “dead faith” here.
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Jean_Anthony
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Please return to the thread’s original topic. Thank you.
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VociMike
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Why not? What standards are proper to apply to liturgical music, if not the standards of the Church? That is the crux of the matter.
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Jlynch
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I did not mean to offend anyone. I’m just a parishoner. The pastor has the final say on the music with oversight from the Bishop. The form or genre can be heard on Catholic jukebox on ewtn. We have a male and female singer, and muscicians from the peabody consevatory,(keyboards, bass , guitar) the leader of the group was is a former studio muscician and a parishoner)IWe of course do not change the mass. It started as a youth mass but was so popular that we now have 2 sevices on saturday (4.00 and 5.30) . On sundays we have a Gregorian Chant Mass, Traditional Mass , and a Contemporary music Mass. Our offering has gone from 15000/week to 32000-]/-]/week in 5years not because of the music but in combination with a parish wide mission statement. We decided to concentrate on evangelism . All parishoners are encouraged to be in small groups which meet during the week thruout the parish. Everyone is urged to utilize their talents in ministry.
The process for coverting lapsed Catholics is to invite them to a mass. Next get them involved in a small group . Finally have them involved in some type of ministry . If we can achieve all three we think we may have a covert/revert. Like I said in a previous thread we have adding about 100 converts per year. THe contemporary music is the initial difference that the unchurched mention. The small groups convert them. I’m not sure we would have moved them to stage 2 without the music.
We felt we could not covert them if they never went to mass. It may be that a chant mass would have done the same thing but I doubt it. We decided to try to adress the reasons why the unchurched stop going to church. We discovered it was not doctrine. They mentioned bad music, boring homilies , and no fellowship as reasons. Istead of condemming them we tried to love them while not sacraficing our Catholicism. Our priest is very energetic but does not water down the Gospel.I know I’ll get beat up about this but we felt that Catholics leaving the church or not practicing was bad for society. Our approach seems to be workking.
The process for coverting lapsed Catholics is to invite them to a mass. Next get them involved in a small group . Finally have them involved in some type of ministry . If we can achieve all three we think we may have a covert/revert. Like I said in a previous thread we have adding about 100 converts per year. THe contemporary music is the initial difference that the unchurched mention. The small groups convert them. I’m not sure we would have moved them to stage 2 without the music.
We felt we could not covert them if they never went to mass. It may be that a chant mass would have done the same thing but I doubt it. We decided to try to adress the reasons why the unchurched stop going to church. We discovered it was not doctrine. They mentioned bad music, boring homilies , and no fellowship as reasons. Istead of condemming them we tried to love them while not sacraficing our Catholicism. Our priest is very energetic but does not water down the Gospel.I know I’ll get beat up about this but we felt that Catholics leaving the church or not practicing was bad for society. Our approach seems to be workking.
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ChrisPietraszko
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It is good that you have a deep desire to share your faith with other people, and it is beautiful that you are attempting to do so out of the liturgy. Just keep in mind that the Holy Spirit is the true converter of hearts, and not our artistry. While contemporary music may be a great thing to share amongst people, there is a proper place for it to be. Maybe, you can use it after mass for a praise-and-worship adoration of God? But in the context of mass, we have to be very careful not to disturb sacred liturgy. The liturgy is quite beautiful in itself, the problem is a lot of people are illinformed on what the liturgy means, symbolizes and represents. Coming in off the street should give these people a sense of “history and mystery” which leads to questions, instead of the arousal of passions. Our passions for Christ does not come from music, it comes from faith and a deep relationship with Christ. Music is but one means to enter into that dimension and liturgical music has a solid tradition as well through the antiphones to which they originated.
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