Fr. Grodin's remarks on immigration

[psalm90]

Fr Grodin’s remarks are here (forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=830134).

The first thing he says that it would be difficult to say that there is an official Church teaching on immigration. but, he has much more to say, for sure. And, he references the USCCB position on immigration. The immediate context in the US is on illegal immigration from countries to the south of its border.

But, there are many things that confuse me about what’s going on. We’ve seen some significant migration of people from the Middle East and Africa, risking their lives to reach a safer haven in Europe. but, It seems that the US is having and has had the same problem chronically that Europe has been experiencing acutely – just dealing with the influx and providing “services” to them.

When I checked, the US is the third most populous country in the world, as it is. We’re past the 1/3 billion mark. And, the US is over $17 trillion in debt. I have a hard time rationalizing the bishops saying that the US is a “rich” country.

On EWTN radio, Teresa Tomeo had a guest talking about immigration (a couple months back) and the guest’s final remark was “well, we just want a piece of the pie.” Where is this “pie?” this seems to be some fake news that there’s a pie here that’s just waiting for the taking.

And, I’m confused about how the US policies on immigration have “broken up families.” Immigration has ALWAYS broken up families, some younger members coming to the US legally or illegally, and leaving other members behind in the country of origin. When Joseph, Mary, and Jesus fled to Egypt they were apparently welcomed there, to be sure, but the gospel doesn’t say that Mary’s kinswoman Elizabeth went with them. So, the Holy Family was somewhat broken up at least for the duration. It seems to be more fake news, that the US policy breaks up families. The truth is: immigrants break up their families. Even domestically, my parents’ sibling are spread across the country. again, they’ve broken up “the nest” of their own families, and this is very common among US families.

I can only evangelize people to the Church if I understand these Church statements. It’s all so unclear to me.

can anybody address some of the issues that are stated here?

 

[Theo520]

Good points, we are deeply in debt, not rich. But that debt has increased our standard of living and that is what people are chasing.

The breaking up families meme assumes parents will be deported and leave their children here. The right policy is for children to be raised by their parents, in whatever country they legally reside. If the child has a passport, they can chose to emigrate to the US when they are adults.

When it comes to refugees, are we even helping the right people? Of 12,587 Syrian Refugees Admitted in FY 2016 ;
12,486 Muslims (99.2%),
68 Christians (00.5%),
24 Yazidis (00.3%),

I think the Christians in the ME are facing much greater discrimination, and they are more likely to integrate into our culture, yet they are largely excluded from coming.

 

[J_Peterson]

And, I’m confused about how the US policies on immigration have “broken up families.” Immigration has ALWAYS broken up families, some younger members coming to the US legally or illegally, and leaving other members behind in the country of origin. When Joseph, Mary, and Jesus fled to Egypt they were apparently welcomed there, to be sure, but the gospel doesn’t say that Mary’s kinswoman Elizabeth went with them. So, the Holy Family was somewhat broken up at least for the duration. It seems to be more fake news, that the US policy breaks up families. The truth is: immigrants break up their families. Even domestically, my parents’ sibling are spread across the country. again, they’ve broken up “the nest” of their own families, and this is very common among US families.

Children born in the U.S. are American Citizens. If the parent is undocumented they may be deported. The children are American citizens so they aren’t deported and end up in foster care or perhaps with family if they are lucky.

 

[Ender]

Fr Grodin’s remarks are here (forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=830134).
*
“The first thing he says that it would be difficult to say that there is an official Church teaching on immigration. but, he has much more to say, for sure.”*

This is the point to keep in mind: the reason it is difficult to say there is an official Church teaching on immigration is that no such teaching exists. The church presents us with guidelines, but she takes no position on the various specific proposals that have been presented.

"The Catechism sums up the basic principles the Church asks us to apply when making prudent judgments and decisions about immigration"

Yes, the church identifies the principles but it up to us to apply them. They are in fact prudential judgments that are the responsibility of the laity to make. The fact that Bishop X says we ought to support this or that specific policy doesn’t mean we have any obligation to assent to his opinion.

“The Church clearly recognizes the right of the State to make prudential judgments about immigration laws. The Church also challenges the State to be as generous and accommodating as reasonably possible.”

The decisions about what constitutes “generous and accommodating” is, as Fr. Grondin said, a prudential judgment. There is no church teaching that forbids deportation, that requires sanctuary, or that sets limits of any kind on who or how many immigrants are acceptable.

The church is silent on those questions, even if the bishops are not.

Ender

 

[ProVobis]

Good points, we are deeply in debt, not rich. But that debt has increased our standard of living and that is what people are chasing.

Despite the debt, we are rich. Our currency is the world’s default, our military is second to none, and we have enough natural resources to be self-sustaining for some time. If anything we have been losing a lot of talent to foreign countries, though many are educated here. We can’t continue to be productive if we keep going down this road, at least in my opinion.

 

[GEddie]

Re: Mary and Elizabeth, true, Elizabeth did not go to Egypt, but there was no tradition that they lived near each other previously.

Kinsfolks normally are scattered all over the place.

And, yes, families are broken up when people emigrate to a new country. But when they then start families in the new country and immigration issues develop, the issue of the new family breaking up surfaces.

ICXC NIKA

 

[pnewton]

Since the question is how to address the position of the Church with those outside, then I think the best approach is that of Father Grodin. Focus on those principles that are absolute. We are called to charity toward all, but especially the poor and the stranger, accommodating and welcoming. We can temper with prudence that which we can do, but we must act with charity, that is, what would we want if we were on the other side of the issue as an act of charity toward us.

Then, when we balance the statements and positions of others, especially those in politics, against this, does it sound like they are proposing something that meets this level of charity?

 

[St_Francis]

I believe that there is a difference between what we are called to do as individuals and what the government is called to do. We as individuals should be kind and polite to each person we meet, regardless of how they came to be where we meet them.

Governments, otoh, have a responsibility to society as a whole. They need to not abuse their authority over us, but still act with morality towards those who want to immigrate. Forbidding them to enter is not immoral. If people are in dire need, then they should be helped, but the helping does not need to occur in the nation the people want to enter.

 

[Theo520]

Despite the debt, we are rich. Our currency is the world’s default, our military is second to none, and we have enough natural resources to be self-sustaining for some time. If anything we have been losing a lot of talent to foreign countries, though many are educated here. We can’t continue to be productive if we keep going down this road, at least in my opinion.

You are confusing wealth with having things you haven’t paid for. It’s common for people with good salaries to buy more things than they can afford, using credit. Because of their salary, everyone throws credit their way, making it easy to buy new cars, better houses, vacations, and a high standard of living. They still go bankrupt though.

$19.9 Trillion US Debt
$61,346 Debt per citizen
$166,760 Debt per taxpayer

I don’t have a spare $167k to pay off my share of the debt, do you? It’s going to take maybe two generations of frugality to pay this down.

 

[GEddie]

You are confusing wealth with having things you haven’t paid for. It’s common for people with good salaries to buy more things than they can afford, using credit. Because of their salary, everyone throws credit their way, making it easy to buy new cars, better houses, vacations, and a high standard of living. They still go bankrupt though.

$19.9 Trillion US Debt
$61,346 Debt per citizen
$166,760 Debt per taxpayer

I don’t have a spare $167k to pay off my share of the debt, do you? It’s going to take maybe two generations of frugality to pay this down.

Fortunately, as countries can in theory “live forever”, no-one will call you to account. Human beings are not allowed to run up limitless debt because no creditor wants to deal with an estate. National debt is a safer investment.

But we have in effect sold China the right to keep us on a leash, and future generations are going to feel it with their neck-skin.

ICXC NIKA

 

[M-Dent]

Fortunately, as countries can in theory “live forever”, no-one will call you to account. Human beings are not allowed to run up limitless debt because no creditor wants to deal with an estate. National debt is a safer investment.

But we have in effect sold China the right to keep us on a leash, and future generations are going to feel it with their neck-skin.

ICXC NIKA

Though the debt itself is very problematic, the threat of China is not that dire. And thankfully the upcoming admin see’s this debt as a two-way street. China has quite a few financial vulnerabilities the US could exploit if they wanted to play hard ball.

 

[exnihilo]

Despite the debt, we are rich. Our currency is the world’s default, our military is second to none, and we have enough natural resources to be self-sustaining for some time. If anything we have been losing a lot of talent to foreign countries, though many are educated here. We can’t continue to be productive if we keep going down this road, at least in my opinion.

Our wealth is entirely based on our military enforcing our currency as the world’s reserve. It is based on us reneging on our promises to pay in precious metals. With our military what could anyone do about it? That isn’t being moral. I don’t know that our military is second to none. Our military technology certainly is.

Though the debt itself is very problematic, the threat of China is not that dire. And thankfully the upcoming admin see’s this debt as a two-way street. China has quite a few financial vulnerabilities the US could exploit if they wanted to play hard ball.

This is certainly true. There is a great incentive for other countries to maintain the value of the dollar because they have so much wealth in dollars. This doesn’t mean they don’t understand that the US has a huge advantage because it has the monopoly right to create dollars from thin air. Eventually everyone else will figure out a way to get out from under this system.

 

[mikekle]

Despite the debt, we are rich. Our currency is the world’s default, our military is second to none, and we have enough natural resources to be self-sustaining for some time. If anything we have been losing a lot of talent to foreign countries, though many are educated here. We can’t continue to be productive if we keep going down this road, at least in my opinion.

History of the world shows NO country, no matter how powerful and rich they are, holds that title for relatively long, in fact, its usually that kind of pride that eventually plays a part in bringing them down.

Its a David and Goliath scenario, no one ever suspects the little guy to defeat the big powerful warrior, and with such a simple method.

I believe the further the US gets away from God and his laws, the quicker another nation will come along and snatch that title.

 

[M-Dent]

This is certainly true. There is a great incentive for other countries to maintain the value of the dollar because they have so much wealth in dollars. This doesn’t mean they don’t understand that the US has a huge advantage because it has the monopoly right to create dollars from thin air. Eventually everyone else will figure out a way to get out from under this system.

I have heard it whimsically noted we have gone from the Gold Standard to the PhD Standard. It is doubtful we’ll ever turn back to a commodity standard based on gold but I wonder sometimes if the growth of cryptocurrency may change things in unpredictable ways.

 

[po18guy]

The elephant in the living room is the Mexican government. Mexico is/was the world’s #2 produced of silver. #5 in petroleum. Probably a billion in Western Union dollars sent home by Mexican nationals working here. Hundreds of millions from tourism, as well as income form US, Asian and European manufacturing and pharmaceutical companies, etc. etc. etc.

Very low levels of government services.

Why is the populace so poor? Why is our government silent about it?

 

[Sarcelle]

The elephant in the living room is the Mexican government. Mexico is/was the world’s #2 produced of silver. #5 in petroleum. Probably a billion in Western Union dollars sent home by Mexican nationals working here. Hundreds of millions from tourism, as well as income form US, Asian and European manufacturing and pharmaceutical companies, etc. etc. etc.

Very low levels of government services.

Why is the populace so poor? Why is our government silent about it?

Why do you expect our government to do something about Mexico’s problem?

People get up in arms about US interference in other lands but then get mad if the US does not do anything. Can’t win either way.

I bet you a lot of illegal immigrants here are victims of human trafficking. Modern day slaves.

 

[exnihilo]

I have heard it whimsically noted we have gone from the Gold Standard to the PhD Standard. It is doubtful we’ll ever turn back to a commodity standard based on gold but I wonder sometimes if the growth of cryptocurrency may change things in unpredictable ways.

I wouldn’t rule anything out. Republics turned to kingdoms and turned back to republics. Commodity based currency is not in the interest of banksters or the state. It may be that so long as the state has the unprecedented power ours do now there will be no commodity based currency. But their power could fade and we could turn back to more sound economics. We’ve certainly seen modern currencies collapse in many advanced western democracies.

 

[Abynissa]

According to good Fr. Grodin, is he not required to obey and support his superiors? He is not comparing correctly the situation. It is more involved and complicated to just arbitrarily pick and chose numbers. We have the highest GMW than any country in the world, $84,784 trillion dollars en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_wealth . So you should take into consideration other factors to develop a correct interpretation of the situation including the income generated to the tax base and GDP by illegal immigration. It more complex than waving headline banners to stroke the fears of ordinary American folks who do not involve themselves with the details.

 

[GEddie]

IIUC, you cannot become a Vatican citizen in the classical sense; it has only 400 or so passport numbers, and one is not awarded to someone unless a precious SCV citizen dies.

ICXC NIKA

 

[mikekle]

This reminds of me a documentary on a Mexican Prison I watched recently, the warden explained that on visiting day, they have very long lines of people waiting to visit inmates, he said they do try to ‘vet’ as many as they can, checking them, scanning for contraband, but admits it would be impossible to thoroughly search and check everyone coming in, due to the large amount of people and short window of time for visiting.

Same thing with taking in refugees, it would be literally impossible to vet each and every one and avoid a terrorist slipping in.