Fr. James Martin: ‘People take the Bible…out of context’ on homosexuality

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Luke, check out my two posts. I don’t like Life Site News that much either, because it oten reads like a tabloid. Same with National Catholic Reporter which is on the other side of the spectrum. Despite that, you have got to check sources. Joseph Sciambra’s original video is the story.

I also posted quotes directly from that video of Fr. Martin’s Georgetown talk, and also posted a link to the same video. Read my two above posts and then make an assessment of the original source and supplements I gave, including Fr. Schmitz’s response to Fr. Martin.
There is always controversy during the development of doctrine and there always has been. No need to get alarmed. The Magisterium will sort it all out eventually. There will be an aggiornamento that will satisfy neither the “Hans Kungs” of the Church nor the “Marcel Lefebvres” and that is how it should be.

The point about usury is spot on - changes in Church doctrine regarding slavery, torture and religious liberty are other examples.
 
Nothing can ever change about the fact that homosexual acts are intrinsically evil.
Lots of things are intrinsically evil. That doesn’t make them gravely evil. You should read up on what term actually means and where it came from (hint: Thomas Aquinas). It might surprise you. Here’s a good article on it:

 
There is always controversy during the development of doctrine and there always has been. No need to get alarmed. The Magisterium will sort it all out eventually. There will be an aggiornamento that will satisfy neither the “Hans Kungs” of the Church nor the “Marcel Lefebvres” and that is how it should be.

The point about usury is spot on - changes in Church doctrine regarding slavery, torture and religious liberty are other examples.
Whose point? We need to be clear that there have been no changes in Church doctrine regarding usury, slavery, torture or religious liberty. Development of doctrine, especially as Bl. John Henry Newman lays it out, is essentially different from change. And many people don’t understand this fact. That’s why you see proponents of women’s ordination, contraception, and state sanctioned same-sex marriage (along with the notion that sexual acts between those of the same sex can ever be morally good) often use the four examples you gave above in their effort to get the Church to change its teaching on these three issues, and others.

The only way that someone can claim that a change in teaching can occur (or has occurred) is if the Church has been wrong before on matters of faith and morals. Once we understand that no such change in 2,000 years has ever occurred regarding doctrine, no justification remains for changing Church teaching. And in particular, there remains no justification for saying that since the Church “isn’t there yet” on state sanctioned same-sex marriage, that it will be one day.

To say that intrinsically evil acts like sexual activity between those of the same sex (and ultimately “marriage”) can somehow be licit actions would not be a development of doctrine at all; it would be a rupture with past teaching.

Obviously if one commits an intrinsic evil, this does not mean that they have committed a grave sin. They may not have full knowledge of what the Church’s teaching is on the action, or they were coerced. Clearly culpability can be mitigated. But that doesn’t ever make the action (i.e., sexual activity outside of marriage) good at any point. Venial sin remains, not including cases of rape.

Another example would be this. Maybe the loan shark doesn’t know that fraud is grave matter. That doesn’t take away from the fact that he has willingly engaged in sin. It can be argued that he hasn’t mortally sinned, yes. But venial sin is still sin. All sin is evil, and as St. Paul reminds us, “[A]bstain from every form of evil.” (1 Thess. 5:22)
 
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Luke6_37:
There is always controversy during the development of doctrine and there always has been. No need to get alarmed. The Magisterium will sort it all out eventually. There will be an aggiornamento that will satisfy neither the “Hans Kungs” of the Church nor the “Marcel Lefebvres” and that is how it should be.

The point about usury is spot on - changes in Church doctrine regarding slavery, torture and religious liberty are other examples.
Whose point? We need to be clear that there have been no changes in Church doctrine regarding usury, slavery, torture or religious liberty. Development of doctrine, especially as Bl. John Henry Newman lays it out, is essentially different from change. And many people don’t understand this fact. That’s why you see proponents of women’s ordination, contraception, and state sanctioned same-sex marriage (along with the notion that sexual acts between those of the same sex can ever be morally good) often use the four examples you gave above in their effort to get the Church to change its teaching on these three issues, and others.
People use those four examples, because they are the clearest examples of a 180 degree turn taken by the church when it comes to how we understand certain behaviors. Let’s take the “torture” for example. Catholic Answers provides an excellent analysis of the tortured history of what the church taught about torture over the years. It’s a good article.


The article is a good example of what theologians do. They craft arguments that iron out all the discrepancies in the messages given to the faithful regarding a particular behavior in the past to show how church teaching hasn’t changed or if it has changed, why it doesn’t really matter.

As John Courtney Murray famously stated in his Georgetown address after the third session of Vatican II with respect to Religious Liberty, “How do you get two popes who say exactly the opposite thing to really be saying the same thing? Well, this is why we have theologians!”

From Vatican II to Pope Francis: Charting a Catholic Future

The only thing the lay apostolate needs to worry about is our own behavior, our own conscience and treating all others with love, dignity and respect.
 
Sodomitical acts ARE gravely evil, and they cannot be changed.
The way I see it, the church regards homosexual acts as the failure of a person to fully integrate the meaning of sexuality in the same way that masturbation, fornication and contraception are failures to do so. Such failures are not good by any means, but I have never heard anyone claim they rise to a level of evil that one would attribute to abortion for example. Certainly, there is no will on the part of the Magisterium to seek to outlaw any of these behaviors, which seems to me a tacit indication that the Church feels they are best dealt with on a personal and pastoral level.

In his interview with Dave Rubin, I think Bishop Barron does a great job explaining how to understand these issues from a Catholic perspective.

 
People use those four examples, because they are the clearest examples of a 180 degree turn taken by the church when it comes to how we understand certain behaviors. Let’s take the “torture” for example. Catholic Answers provides an excellent analysis of the tortured history of what the church taught about torture over the years. It’s a good article.

The Church and Torture | Catholic Answers

The article is a good example of what theologians do. They craft arguments that iron out all the discrepancies in the messages given to the faithful regarding a particular behavior in the past to show how church teaching hasn’t changed or if it has changed, why it doesn’t really matter.

The only thing the lay apostolate needs to worry about is our own behavior, our own conscience and treating all others with love, dignity and respect.
It is a good article, and I think it shows how what can be an apparent contradiction is really no contradiction at all. These issues you listed are confusing to understand, yes, but it’s not impossible to sift through.

And I do agree with you, lay people do need to worry about treating themselves and others with love, dignity and respect. And this is where I’d like to get back on topic as we’ve gone a little off course. Are Fr. Martin’s comments, both here and elsewhere, really treating others, especially those with same-sex attraction, in a dignified and loving way? Is he calling those people to holiness or is he affirming them in their sinful actions? Is he reducing those people with same-sex attraction to their “experience”, as Fr. Schmitz puts it here?
The big call is that you are made for love regardless of where you’re at, regardless of your experience, regardless of your story—that your actual story is your origin and your destiny. The details of our lives are important; our experiences are important and they are very valuable, but my experiences can’t define me… what do I allow to define me? Is it my experiences? …

If I’m a Christian, I’ve been recreated as a son or daughter of God himself, and so even if my experience or even my story has a lot of brokenness in it—and I think a lot of ours do—and even if my experience or my story has a lot of pain or attraction to whatever, it doesn’t matter. My identity is not that. And I can rise above that. I can live it. It’s part of my story, but that’s not the end of my story.
Also, probably the biggest elephant in the room, IMO, is this: Is Fr. Martin’s assertion, that the prohibition of sexual activity between members of the same sex is on par with the prohibition of mixing two fabrics, a correct and factual statement? Or is he horribly mistaken in his Biblical exegesis? People like Fr. Schmitz and Dr. Mary Healy show that Fr. Martin has completely misunderstood how the laws found in Leviticus and the rest of the Torah relate to us today, and this is a big problem if we are to preach the truth in love to all others.
 
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The only thing the lay apostolate needs to worry about is our own behavior, our own conscience and treating all others with love, dignity and respect.
Jesus gave us both the Corporal and Spiritual Works of Mercy. I think He very much wants us to care about the salvation of other souls as well as ours.
 
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And I do agree with you, lay people do need to worry about treating themselves and others with love, dignity and respect. And this is where I’d like to get back on topic as we’ve gone a little off course. Are Fr. Martin’s comments, both here and elsewhere, really treating others, especially those with same-sex attraction, in a dignified and loving way? Is he calling those people to holiness or is he affirming them in their sinful actions? Is he reducing those people with same-sex attraction to their “experience”, as Fr. Schmitz puts it here?

Also, probably the biggest elephant in the room, IMO, is this: Is Fr. Martin’s assertion, that the prohibition of sexual activity between members of the same sex is on par with the prohibition of mixing two fabrics, a correct and factual statement? Or is he horribly mistaken in his Biblical exegesis? People like Fr. Schmitz and Dr. Mary Healy show that Fr. Martin has completely misunderstood how the laws found in Leviticus and the rest of the Torah relate to us today, and this is a big problem if we are to preach the truth in love to all others.
Firstly, I think what Fr. Martin is doing is exactly what he says he’s doing - building a bridge between the gay community and the Catholic church. That means, first of all, to treat LGBTQ people with dignity and respect and not reduce their same-sex relationship to simply sex. To do so would in fact be doing exactly what Fr. Schmitz says nobody should do.

Secondly, I find a great deal of animosity towards LGBTQ to be at the core of the claim that some Christians make for why they get so riled up about homosexuality. Jesus was quite clear about God’s will regarding marriage, but you don’t see many topics on this forum dedicated to lambasting divorced people who remarry with the same venom as you see directed at gay people in committed same sex relationships. I do not wish to paint everyone who raises a concern about how to understand church teaching on homosexual acts with the same broad brush, but there is a lot of plain hostility out there that is really hurtful to LGBT people.

As for biblical exegesis, there are very few verses in the Bible whose meaning is definitively defined by the Catholic Church. So in pitting Fr. Schmitz interpretation of passages in Leviticus against those of Fr. Martin (lets stick to ordained clergy) you are really just comparing two opinions with equal authority behind them. When interpreting a book like Leviticus, even modern Jews disagree about how to interpret its various laws today - I take that back, Jews have always argued over how to interpret Torah!
 
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I think James Martin is the man who takes scripture out context. Look at this tweet

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As for biblical exegesis, there are very few verses in the Bible whose meaning is definitively defined by the Catholic Church.
This one seems pretty unequivocal.

CCC 2357 … Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity, tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.
 
We should not be surprised about this nonsense though. From today’s reading for the Latin Mass…

2 Tim 4:2 - 5
I solemnly urge you: proclaim the message; be persistent whether the time is favorable or unfavorable; convince, rebuke, and encourage, with the utmost patience in teaching. For the time is coming when people will not put up with sound doctrine, but having itching ears, they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own desires, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander away to myths. As for you, always be sober, endure suffering, do the work of an evangelist, carry out your ministry fully.
Also we had warning from Our Lady of Fatima about the attack on the family.

We also can look to Cardinal Ratzinger’s prophetic vision…

A second objection concerns the Church’s “discrimination” with regards to homosexuality, and the “consequent assertion” by progressive-thinking Catholics of a “moral equivalence for all forms of sexual activity as long as they are motivated by ‘love’ or at least do not hurt anyone.” Connected with this, he singled out the “admission of the divorced who remarry to the Church’s sacraments,” and, lastly, “the ordination of women to the priesthood.”

Cardinal Ratzinger noted how these “objections” question both sexual morality and the Church’s sacramental order, but are “very much linked together,” springing from “a particular notion of human freedom” and difficulties relating to the “Church’s traditional sexual morality.” Today, he said, man feels he has to “come to terms with his sexuality in a differentiated and less confining way” and he thus urges a revision of standards, ones which are deemed “no longer acceptable in the present circumstances, no matter how meaningful they may have been under past historical conditions.”
 
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Luke6_37:
As for biblical exegesis, there are very few verses in the Bible whose meaning is definitively defined by the Catholic Church.
This one seems pretty unequivocal.

CCC 2357 … Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity, tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.
I think a large part of what is at issue for Father Martin and Bishop Barron is the language the Church has used in the past to characterize homosexual acts and by extension LGBTQ people. I think both men agreed that it gets in the way of the Gospel message. There are worse things people can do that are not described in the CCC as “acts of grave depravity” or “intrinsically disordered” even though they are both.

Let’s compare the wording of CCC 2357 with that of CCC 2384
Divorce

2382 The Lord Jesus insisted on the original intention of the Creator who willed that marriage be indissoluble.174 He abrogates the accommodations that had slipped into the old Law.175

2384 Divorce is a grave offense against the natural law. It claims to break the contract, to which the spouses freely consented, to live with each other till death. Divorce does injury to the covenant of salvation, of which sacramental marriage is the sign. Contracting a new union, even if it is recognized by civil law, adds to the gravity of the rupture: the remarried spouse is then in a situation of public and permanent adultery:

If a husband, separated from his wife, approaches another woman, he is an adulterer because he makes that woman commit adultery, and the woman who lives with him is an adulteress, because she has drawn another’s husband to herself.178
What about adultery? Surely that is spoken of using more severe language…
Adultery

2380 Adultery refers to marital infidelity. When two partners, of whom at least one is married to another party, have sexual relations - even transient ones - they commit adultery. Christ condemns even adultery of mere desire.171 The sixth commandment and the New Testament forbid adultery absolutely.172 The prophets denounce the gravity of adultery; they see it as an image of the sin of idolatry.173

2381 Adultery is an injustice. He who commits adultery fails in his commitment. He does injury to the sign of the covenant which the marriage bond is, transgresses the rights of the other spouse, and undermines the institution of marriage by breaking the contract on which it is based. He compromises the good of human generation and the welfare of children who need their parents’ stable union.
Hmmm…
 
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Firstly, I think what Fr. Martin is doing is exactly what he says he’s doing - building a bridge between the gay community and the Catholic church.

Secondly…
The problem, though, is that Fr. Martin is ignoring the bridges that have already been built by courageous priests like Fr. John F. Harvey, O.S.F.S, Fr. Paul Check, and Servant of God Cardinal Terrence Cooke. I think we can both admit that what Fr. Martin advocates, as seen in his support of New Ways Ministries, is not in accord what the Courage apostolate promotes, which is legitimately recognized by the Church.

Second, I am not one of the Christians you speak of who throws venom. I actually am very concerned about divorce in the Western world and see it as a grave evil as well. Thank you for not painting me with this broad brush.
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Luke:
…in pitting Fr. Schmitz interpretation of passages in Leviticus against those of Fr. Martin (lets stick to ordained clergy) you are really just comparing two opinions with equal authority behind them.
Third, can the Ordinary Magisterium “definitively define” what something in Scripture means? In this specific case, I am not simply pitting Fr. Schmitz’s interpretation against Fr. Martin’s. This interpretation of Fr. Schmitz’s is rooted in St. Paul’s exposition of Leviticus in 1 Cor. 6 and Romans 1. Here he condemns same-sex sexual acts on moral grounds. He does not include the eating of shellfish or the mixing of two fabrics together here (or elsewhere) because those laws focused on the ceremonial aspect of the Law; an aspect which only applied to the Jews in a certain time and place. Fr. Schmitz’s interpretation is further rooted (as if St. Paul were not enough) in prior interpretations that were handed down to the Church by such men as Tertullian, St. Augustine, and St. Thomas Aquinas. This has been the interpretation given by numerous Church Fathers and saints, not to mention Protestant reformers like Calvin. I’ll quote St. Thomas Aquinas here:
 
Obj. 2: …Since, then, the moral precepts are about acts of virtue, as stated above (Article 2), it seems that the ceremonial precepts should not be distinct from the moral.

Reply to Obl. 2: [T]o worship God, since it is an act of virtue, belongs to a moral precept; but the determination of this precept, namely that He is to be worshiped by such and such sacrifices, and such and such offerings, belongs to the ceremonial precepts. Consequently the ceremonial precepts are distinct from the moral precepts. …

I answer that, as stated above (Article 3), it belongs to the Divine law to direct men to one another and to God… We must therefore distinguish three kinds of precept in the Old Law; viz. “moral” precepts, which are dictated by the natural law; “ceremonial” precepts, which are determinations of the Divine worship; and “judicial” precepts", which are determinations of the justice to be maintained among men. Wherefore the Apostle (Romans 7:12) after saying that the “Law is holy,” adds that “the commandment is just, and holy, and good”: “just,” in respect of the judicial precepts; “holy,” with regard to the ceremonial precepts (since the word “sanctus”—“holy”—is applied to that which is consecrated to God); and “good,” i.e. conducive to virtue, as to the moral precepts.
(ST I-II:99:3, 4)
The entirety of Question 99 is great for understanding this subject of distinguishing the Law into three groups. For more study, follow this link to a video where Patrick Madrid and Fr. Mike Schmitz have a mock debate. Fr. Schmitz shows how St. Paul makes a connection to Leviticus 18 and 20, showing that these commandments regarding sinful sexual acts (adultery, homosexuality, etc.) are prohibited by moral law. Start around the 52:30 mark to get Madrid’s question, but the real meat pertaining to our discussion here starts around the 56:00 mark through the 1:02:00 mark.

That being said, do you have any sources from Christian antiquity or the Patristic period that back up Fr. James Martin’s interpretation of the laws in Leviticus? That they’re all the same as the author of the letter to Dr. Schlesinger believed? Because Fr. Martin does agree with that author’s assessment as we can see from the video in the OP. This all makes Fr. Martin’s interpretation appear to be most novel. This is not simply pitting two 21st century priests’ interpretations of Leviticus against the other; no, this is Fr. Martin attempting to reinterpret Scripture in a way that is different from how the Church has always interpreted the divisions in the Law.
 
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When interpreting a book like Leviticus, even modern Jews disagree about how to interpret its various laws today - I take that back, Jews have always argued over how to interpret Torah!
Note how followers of Jesus of Nazareth have always argued on how to interpret Jesus’ relation to the Father. Gnostics denied His humanity. Arians denied His divinity. Today, Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormon’s deny Jesus’ divinity. The point is, just because there have been disagreements both thousands of years in the past and in the present day, this does not mean that the truth of the matter is not there. Disagreements will keep happening, but it won’t change the truth of the matter: Jesus is divine.

Disagreements on how to interpret the Law of the Torah will continue to happen, but this doesn’t mean that the answer isn’t out there. Let’s even grant you the fact that Fr. Schmitz’s interpretation of Scripture (which is that of the Church’s to begin with) is simply an “opinion”. Ok, well, the Church who has divine authority given to her by Christ Himself has revealed to us that this doctrine regarding same-sex sexual acts is intrinsically evil and it is not simply a discipline that can change in the same way priestly celibacy did in Western Christianity.

So my question is this: who is correct? Fr. Martin, Fr. Schmitz, or neither? Again, just because there is a disagreement, it doesn’t mean someone has not already reached the correct answer, or that the answer is not out there. It seems to me that whenever someone says “well there’s always been disagreement!” it makes it seem that there is no way of knowing the right answer or right interpretation. Until I see some sources from the Church’s history that agree with Fr. Martin, I’ll stick with Fr. Schmitz’s, St. Thomas Aquinas’, and the Church’s view on how to interpret the Law as found in Leviticus. I don’t see how Fr. Martin’s opinion has “equal authority” behind it.
 
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I’m having difficulty understanding your position on this. Are you saying that the issue of homosexual unions, whether marriage or not, are taken out of context? Much like Fr. Martin is saying? Or are you saying that the Church (more specifically the Catholic Church) has taken an overzealous approach to combating this issue? Or even a third position would be to say that, certain members of the laity, are the ones taking an undeserved stance on the issue of homosexuality?

So from your point of view, do you believe that Christianity as whole, has taken the issue of homosexual unions out of context? More specifically, do you feel that the issue of homosexuality was never taught to be sinful and in fact should be allowed and recognized by the church?
 
So my question is this: who is correct? Fr. Martin, Fr. Schmitz, or neither? Again, just because there is a disagreement, it doesn’t mean someone has not already reached the correct answer, or that the answer is not out there. It seems to me that whenever someone says “well there’s always been disagreement!” it makes it seem that there is no way of knowing the right answer or right interpretation. Until I see some sources from the Church’s history that agree with Fr. Martin, I’ll stick with Fr. Schmitz’s, St. Thomas Aquinas’, and the Church’s view on how to interpret the Law as found in Leviticus. I don’t see how Fr. Martin’s opinion has “equal authority” behind it.
Then do that. You are clearly deeply concerned with this issue. For me, it is no different than other sexual sins. I lump them all together.

I respect Father Schmitz and Patrick Madrid as apologists, Bishop Barron as an evangelist, and Father Martin as a reformer. I think all three types are necessary to the mission of the Church.

I will continue to watch what happens. Father Martin’s superiors have not attempted to silence him so maybe what appears to be a shift in doctrine, may just be a shift in emphasis.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts with me.
 
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