Fr. McBrien ??

[stanley123]

He has done it by saying that he’s not subject to the Magisterium. So what if he’s published in some “Catholic” periodicals? What he says is flatly heresy, and it doesn’t require the Church to formally address him in particular.

Should Catholics follow their bishops and cardinals who are approving these diocesan newspapers or should they listen to people such as yourself who basically have no known or public credentials at all?

 

[Ghosty]

They can read whatever periodicals they want, but they shouldn’t be confused as to whether or not Fr. McBrien is a good Catholic, or whether his views are sound in Catholic theology. They are not. This isn’t a matter of my opinion, he has been directly criticized by the United States Conference of Bishops, and his book “Catholicism” has been declared unsound; he even explicitely denies certain doctrines of the Church.

If you want to read the USCCB’s review of just that one work of McBrien’s, read it here. In any other age, people who have said less heretical things have been publically excommunicated.

 

[EA_Man]

RyanL:

Well, just today I went to a lecture by Amy Welborn, author of Decoding DaVinci. I’d say she was pretty orthodox. We are also scheduled to get several other speakers this year, all orthodox. With any luck, I will be able to arrange for Fr. Corapi or Tim Staples to come.

Don’t write ND off yet.

That said, if you can find what class Fr. McBrian teaches, I would be more than happy to “have a word” with him. Is it a sin to hit a blaspheming priest?

God Bless Notre Dame,

RyanL

So what have we here Ryan, a member of the laity questioning the teaching authority of the ordinary magesterium?

Sounds rather Reformational…

God Bless Notre Dame and all the other Christian Colleges and Universities

 

[Catholic2003]

“Lack theological credentials”?? Isn’t this a smear by Fr. McBrien??

The authorized credentials for a Catholic theologian are an S.T.D. (Doctorate in Sacred Theology), or at a bare minimum an S.T.L. (Licentiate in Sacred Theology). The universities authorized to grant these degrees are accredited by the Vatican. (The licentiate is essentially a master’s degree.)

On the other hand, Ph.D.'s can be granted by almost anywhere, including by mail for $149.

 

[stanley123]

Ghosty:

Fr. McBrien is, to put it bluntly, lacking any Catholic theological credentials at this point…

However, the previous post points out that
“The authorized credentials for a Catholic theologian are an S.T.D. (Doctorate in Sacred Theology), or at a bare minimum an S.T.L. (Licentiate in Sacred Theology).”
Does not Father McBrien have these credentials?

 

[oldfogey]

I fear that if I were to follow McBrien’s writings, my soul would be in jeopardy.

That’s no authority to follow, whatever the letter salad after his name.

 

[EA_Man]

stanley123:

However, the previous post points out that
“The authorized credentials for a Catholic theologian are an S.T.D. (Doctorate in Sacred Theology), or at a bare minimum an S.T.L. (Licentiate in Sacred Theology).”
Does not Father McBrien have these credentials?

Yes. Yes he does.

**Richard P. McBrien
**(A.A., St. Thomas Seminary, Bloomfield, CT, 1956; M.A., St. John Seminary, Brighton, MA, 1962; S.T.D., Pontifical Gregorian University, Rome, 1967)
Crowley-O’Brien Professor of Theology

nd.edu/~theo/faculty/mcbrien.html

 

[EA_Man]

oldfogey:

I fear that if I were to follow McBrien’s writings, my soul would be in jeopardy.

That’s no authority to follow, whatever the letter salad after his name.

So if the the authorized credentials of Catholic Theologians are no guarantee of doctrinal stability, we are left to personally judge for ourselves what is and is not “safe” doctrine. How does this system recommend itself over what Protestants have?

Peace

 

[rwoehmke]

stanley123:

If Father McBrien is a heretic, why has he been writing a syndicated weekly theology column for the Catholic press since 1966. Why is he the winner of the John Courtney Murray Award for outstanding and distinguished achievement in theology? Every week, his column apperas in certain Catholic newspapers, including the LA Archdiocese Catholic newspaper The Tidings. If he is a heretic as you say he is, why do the Catholic authorities promote him and provide him with a pulpit from the newspaper each and every week of the year, for almost 40 years?

His column appears in our diocesan newspaper and in my opinion McBrien does not write a theology column, but more of a sociological comment on the currents within our Church. I have read that one of his books, Catholicism, which he intended as a basic theology text was considered too speculative for the ordinary reader or student. There were more than several points of contention between his thought and those mentioned above who were giving the book official criticism and requesting that he re-reason/rewrite certain portions. He refused. All that being said I have found that his sociological comments to be pretty close to my own limited observations of goings on in our Church. There are occasions though when he seems to be really off the wall, particularly since the death of John Paul II. He seems to be dogmatically opposed to certain teachings or beliefs.(sarcasim intended) His theology is lacking, but like Greeley he is a sociological star.

 

[Strider]

stanley123:

If Father McBrien is a heretic, why has he been writing a syndicated weekly theology column for the Catholic press since 1966. Why is he the winner of the John Courtney Murray Award for outstanding and distinguished achievement in theology? Every week, his column apperas in certain Catholic newspapers, including the LA Archdiocese Catholic newspaper The Tidings. If he is a heretic as you say he is, why do the Catholic authorities promote him and provide him with a pulpit from the newspaper each and every week of the year, for almost 40 years?

I can’t answer for Notre Dame, and have often wondered why he is still on the faculty, let alone with a prestigious chair. Notre Dame has, according to the Newman Society, welcomed some very anti-Catholic speakers and has hosted the “Vagina Chronicals.” Makes one wonder about their current Catholicity.
You seem to be very impressed by the fact that McBrien publishes a weekly column. It is published in diocesan papers like the one in Los Angeles and other liberal dioceses, and in the liberal Catholic press; magazines such as “The National Catholic Reporter,” and “Commonweal.” These publications are unabashedly left-wing and carry articles from other “Catholic” religious dissenters like Joan Chittester, who favors female ordination.
As to his award as a theologian, may I suggest a book? It’s an easy read and very elucidating. Read What went wrong with Vatican II by Ralph McInerny.
There has been a group of theologians who call themselves Catholic who have dissented from authentic, Magesterial teaching since the 1960’s.
As to why they are still around, John Paul II himself admitted that he was not as assertive enough with the dissenters as he should have been. “Fr.” Charles Curran, was at one time the president of an association of American theologians, and may no longer teach at Catholic Universities. He’s got all those initials after his name, too.
McBrien is a heretic. No, I don’t have authority or education to formally declare that, but I can read. This is also a reply to
EA_Man. The Catechism of the Catholic Church defines what is Magesterial teaching, what is Dogma and Doctrine of the Catholic Church. It contains and explains what I must believe to be a practicing, faithful Catholic.
McBrien, Curran and other theologians who were presumably at one time Catholic, since they are priests, proudly and publicly
reject much of that teaching, and they reject much of the dogma and doctrine. Therefore, they have declared themselves to be in opposition to required beliefs of the Catholic Church.
I don’t know. What would you call them?

 

[Gilbert_Keith]

He seems to be dogmatically opposed to certain teachings or beliefs.(sarcasim intended) His theology is lacking, but like Greeley he is a sociological star

Or maybe just thinks he is. I remember several years before John Paul’s death McBrien saying in one of his columns words to the effect that we won’t have this pope to contend with much longer.

And so now he thinks he has no pope to contend with?

 

[RyanL]

EA_Man:

So if the the authorized credentials of Catholic Theologians are no guarantee of doctrinal stability, we are left to personally judge for ourselves what is and is not “safe” doctrine. How does this system recommend itself over what Protestants have?

The difference is that if things get “too bad”, we have one man who can infallibly say what the true course is. The captain of the Bark of Peter can quell any mutiny; he has but to speak. Additionally, we can ask the captain in any storm by which point we should sail, and the answer is guaranteed by God Himself to be true. The Scriptures are the compass, and tradition is the chart. Without the captain, the compass, and the chart, who knows if you’ll ever get home? You need all three for a safe voyage, as any sailor will tell you.

Isn’t that a smart set-up? Praise be to God!

Abandoning ship simply because a deck-hand questions the course and a handful of sailors believe him is a poor idea. McBrien is a heretic, as our Lieutenants have plainly said. So to answer your question, it’s completely different than the armada of Protestant theology. One captain, one ship, one course. One God, undivided.

God Bless,
RyanL

 

[Ghosty]

So if the the authorized credentials of Catholic Theologians are no guarantee of doctrinal stability, we are left to personally judge for ourselves what is and is not “safe” doctrine. How does this system recommend itself over what Protestants have?

McBrien is not a part of the Magisterium, not even a part of the Church. The authority of the Council of Bishops and the Pope are completely seperate from a few college degrees.

 

[RyanL]

McBrien quotes…you tell me if he’s Catholic…

If science cannot provide the proof that human life begins at conception, then the only argument against embryonic stem cell research is religious.

Laws, however, should not be made on the basis of religious belief alone, particularly when those beliefs are not shared even by those within the same religious tradition.

Anyone familiar with written exchanges between bishops and laity know that bishops have standard ways of putting off complaints from the left…

The complainer… was appalled by the celebration of the Eucharist on that particular Sunday. He objected to the homily, to the form of the Eucharistic Prayer that was used, to the absence of kneelers in the church, to the pastor’s invitation to the whole congregation to join in the proclaiming of the doxology at the end of the Eucharistic Prayer, and to the fact that the pastor left the altar at the “Our Father” to join hands in prayer with those in the first row.

Not surprisingly, the letter’s language was redolent of another era in U.S. Catholic history. Its sanctimonious and self-righteous tone was exceeded only by its obvious determination to “do in” the pastor.

 

[otm]

stanley123:

However, has that happened to Father McBrien? I haven’t heard about it. Isn’t he still in good standing with the RCC? The question was raised as to whether or not Father McBrien had credentials.
*First of all, Father McBrien has written several books, including **

Do We Need the Church? (1969), Church: the Continuing Quest (1970), The Remaking of the Church (1973); Caesar’s Coin: Religion and Politics in America (1987); Catholicism (1980; rev. ed., 1994), Lives of the Popes (1997), and Lives of the Saints (2001), and was he not the general editor of The HarperCollins Encyclopedia of Catholicism (1995). Also, he was the president of the Catholic Theological Society of America (1973-74) and winner of its John Courtney Murray Award “for outstanding and distinguished achievement in Theology” (1976). And he has written a syndicated weekly theology column for the Catholic press since 1966.

Also, he received the S.T.D., Pontifical Gregorian University, Rome, 1967? And he is at present the Crowley-O’Brien Professor of Theology at the University of Notre Dame.*

I don’t see how anyone can say that he does not have credentials. Also, what are the credentials of those who say that Father McBrien does not have any credentials?

1. I did not say he did not have the credentials; someone else did.
2. the fact that the church has not sanctioned Fr. McBrien does not mean that he teaches what the Magesterium teaches. 3) it does not take a Ph.D., or even an M.A or M.S. in theology to know when someone is making a bald faced denial of Church doctrine. I am not talking about someone who makes a nuanced statement; but flat out denies one or more doctrines. McBrien fits that category.

For whatever reason, his order does not sanction him. and, for whatever reason, Rome does not sanction him.

However, if one simply pays attention for a long enough time, one will realize that Rome does not use sanctions very often, and almost never rapidly. The fact that Rome has not publicly sanctioned him is no proof that he is orthodox in his teachings.

 

[otm]

stanley123:

If Father McBrien is a heretic, why has he been writing a syndicated weekly theology column for the Catholic press since 1966. Why is he the winner of the John Courtney Murray Award for outstanding and distinguished achievement in theology? Every week, his column apperas in certain Catholic newspapers, including the LA Archdiocese Catholic newspaper The Tidings. If he is a heretic as you say he is, why do the Catholic authorities promote him and provide him with a pulpit from the newspaper each and every week of the year, for almost 40 years?

You are making an assumption that Catholic authorities are giving him this pulpit. Actually, it is not Catholic authorities, it is the editors of the papers who are giving him that platform.

If there is anything that can be said about the authority in the Church, it certainly can be said that Rome does not micro manage the Church; and the same can be said for a lot, if not most all, of the bishops.

the question you ask can be asked about Hans Kung; why, if he was so off the mark, did he have such a platform for so long before the Church finally did something? It is much the same reason; the Church is not micro managed. A lot goes on that should not.

Christ’s directions to the apostles was to go forth and teach all nations, baptizing them… not, to go forth an micro manage the people they convert. The duty of the Church is to spek the truth, and throughout 2000 years of history, there have been memebers of the Church, many of them very prominant, who did not do that. And throughout that same 2000 years, the Church has dealt with a number of them; but in almost all occasions, the dealing ahs been slow, and by no means were all dealt with.

 

[otm]

stanley123:

Do you have the credentials to excommunicate Father Richard McBrien or to declare that he has been excommunicated? If he is a theological fraud, as you say, then why has he been writing a syndicated weekly theology column for the Catholic press since 1966. Why is he the winner of the John Courtney Murray Award for outstanding and distinguished achievement in theology? Every week, his column apperas in certain Catholic newspapers, including the LA Archdiocese Catholic newspaper The Tidings. If he is a theological fraud as you say he is, why do the Catholic authorities promote him and provide him with a pulpit from the newspaper each and every week of the year, for almost 40 years?
By the way, do you have a syndicated weekly column that appears each and every weeek in Catholic newspapers, such as the LA Tidings? If so, for how long have you had this column?

what, prey tell, does having a column have to do with understanding and identifying truth? By your presumed standard, the Pope himself could not address McBrien if he had no column… Come on, stanley, you cn do better than that!

 

[otm]

stanley123:

Should Catholics follow their bishops and cardinals who are approving these diocesan newspapers or should they listen to people such as yourself who basically have no known or public credentials at all?

Where do you get the presumption that the bishops and cardinals even read what is published? They are not editors of those papers, and have neither the time , energy or interest to do so. The paper may or may not be published under a general grant of authority by the bishop; if it is a diocesan newspaper, then there has been a general grant of authority. But the grant of general authority in no way implies that the bishop even reads the paper on occasion, let alone makes any editorial decisions. I am not even sure that the bishop has any direct say in the hiring and firing of ediotrs, who are the ones making those decisions.

 

[otm]

EA_Man:

So what have we here Ryan, a member of the laity questioning the teaching authority of the ordinary magesterium?

Sounds rather Reformational…

God Bless Notre Dame and all the other Christian Colleges and Universities

McBrien is not part of the teaching authority of the ordinary Magisterium.

 

[Ann_Cheryl]

Originally Posted by stanley123
Should Catholics follow their bishops and cardinals who are approving these diocesan newspapers or should they listen to people such as yourself who basically have no known or public credentials at all?

There are many bishops who have removed him from the diocesan newspapers.