Fr. McBrien ??

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EA_Man:
There was a mutiny, and the “captain” could not quell the mutiny. So the presumed advantage of the Magesterium when actually prevailed upon, failed.
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There certainly was a rebellion (like the sin of Korah’s rebellion, cf. Num 16, warned against in Jude 11). Yet, I wouldn’t say it isn’t being quelled. Nor would I say the magisterium has failed.

For example, over 100 years ago there were more Protestants than Catholics. Today, 54% of all those calling themselves Christian call themselves Catholic. Among the Protestant mutineers, there is such disagreement that it cannot honestly be called a mutiny against Catholicism anymore, but a thousands of mutinies within a whole band of mutineers, all rebelling against each other in ways unimaginable by Martin Luther. Think of it this way, does it appear that the mutiny succeeded? It doesn’t appear that way to me. Thus, the magisterium has not failed.

I’m going to try to attach a chart that makes this rather obvious. The large group to the far left is Catholicism (54%). The next is largest is Orthodoxy (12%). The rest of the mutineers are divided up into little piece parts, the largest of which is the African Indiginous Sects at 5.8%. (source: www.adherents.com)

(If the chart doesn’t appear below, see here:
photos1.blogger.com/img/286/5078/640/sm_christianity.jpg )

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
 
EA_Man,

Keep in mind, of the above classifications, the only one that classifies as a single Church is the Catholic Church. None of the others even meet Webster’s definition of “denomination”, which is “a religious organization uniting local congregations in a single legal and administrative body.” Other than the Catholic Church, which has a single legal and administrative body governing the single Church, the other classifications are divided up further still into many governing authorities, creating such disunity that some authors estimate that they divide at a rate of 5 new groupings per week.

Seems to me the only “rock” in the past 2000 years among these mutineers has been the Rock of Peter, where Christ built His Church.
 
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infoguy:
… “Lack theological credentials”?? Isn’t this a smear by Fr. McBrien??
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hard to tell

the bios you presented didn’t say what field their PhDs were in (I imagine that they are in theology but it didn’t say) and, while they listed various jobs, the details of what they did or (more importantly) what they published were not given

I haven’t read Catholisim for Dummies but the other “for dummies” books I’ve read are, by design, farily basic in nature so there is probably no need to have big heavy weight credebtials. Being a good writer and having a broad general understanding of the material seems more important than specialised knowledge. So it may not be a smear, just a fact you’d have to look at the context.
 
EA_Man,
McBrien’s superiors either from within the context of a “Catholic” university or within his Order do not consider him a heretic - else one would expect his removal.
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I don’t agree with that conclusion. The other possibility, which I think is more likely, is that the Church understands that a de facto heresy and schism tends to last longer than does de jure heresy and schism, given the history of heresy and schism in the past 2000 years. De facto heresies tend to simply fade away, having very little influence among Catholics once the Church condemns it as error. De jure heresies and schism tend to linger around for centuries and/or become resurrected later in the life of the Church.

Perhaps the Church in her understanding of the past believes it best to critique his works as contrary to Catholic doctrine, and simply allow him to fade away. In this way, his ravings will tend to be so insignigicant as to not earn hardly a footnote in the history of Catholicism.

Dave Armstrong discusses this in the following article…

"Why Doesn’t Pope John Paul II DO Something About the Modernist Dissenters in the Catholic Church?"
ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ375.HTM
 
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itsjustdave1988:
EA_Man,

Keep in mind, of the above classifications, the only one that classifies as a single Church is the Catholic Church. None of the others even meet Webster’s definition of “denomination”, which is “a religious organization uniting local congregations in a single legal and administrative body.” Other than the Catholic Church, which has a single legal and administrative body governing the single Church, the other classifications are divided up further still into many governing authorities, creating such disunity that some authors estimate that they divide at a rate of 5 new groupings per week.
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So are there 30,000+ Protestant denominations or not?
On the one hand you say that they aren’t even denominations and on the other you say that the denominations are splintering rapidly - which is it?
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itsjustdave1988:
Seems to me the only “rock” in the past 2000 years among these mutineers has been the Rock of Peter, where Christ built His Church.
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Seems to me that the “church built upon Peter” has conducted its business in some very unChristian ways - from the False Decretals to invalid Papal Elections to the pedophile scandal. Can you or can you not judge a tree by the fruit it produces?

Peace
 
,<<Seems to me that the “church built upon Peter” has conducted its business in some very unChristian ways - from the False Decretals to invalid Papal Elections to the pedophile scandal. Can you or can you not judge a tree by the fruit it produces?>>

Whoa. I think you had better rethink and most definitely REPHRASE those last two sentences. Right now, it appears that you are attacking the Catholic FAITH because of the alleged sins of putative individual Catholic PEOPLE. And wouldn’t that be a terrible error on your part?
 
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itsjustdave1988:
There certainly was a rebellion (like the sin of Korah’s rebellion, cf. Num 16, warned against in Jude 11). Yet, I wouldn’t say it isn’t being quelled. Nor would I say the magisterium has failed.

For example, over 100 years ago there were more Protestants than Catholics. Today, 54% of all those calling themselves Christian call themselves Catholic. Among the Protestant mutineers, there is such disagreement that it cannot honestly be called a mutiny against Catholicism anymore, but a thousands of mutinies within a whole band of mutineers, all rebelling against each other in ways unimaginable by Martin Luther. Think of it this way, does it appear that the mutiny succeeded? It doesn’t appear that way to me. Thus, the magisterium has not failed.

I’m going to try to attach a chart that makes this rather obvious. The large group to the far left is Catholicism (54%). The next is largest is Orthodoxy (12%). The rest of the mutineers are divided up into little piece parts, the largest of which is the African Indiginous Sects at 5.8%. (source: www.adherents.com)

(If the chart doesn’t appear below, see here:
photos1.blogger.com/img/286/5078/640/sm_christianity.jpg )

http://photos1.blogger.com/img/286/5078/640/sm_christianity.jpg
Click to expand...
This analysis fails on at least two points:
  1. The truth of God is not determined by majority vote - see Isaiah (the small remnant).
  2. Whether or not you view the mutiny as a success or not is immaterial. If the purpose of the Magesterium is to prevent the defectability of the Church, then of what use was the Magesterium in 1054? Or in 1517? What did it prevent in those cases? That the mutineers occupy this or that percentage of the religious pie really is of little import - just the fact that there are any percentages other than 100% is the issue - and the circumstance that the Magesterium was supposed to prevent.
Peace
 
Tantum ergo:
,<<Seems to me that the “church built upon Peter” has conducted its business in some very unChristian ways - from the False Decretals to invalid Papal Elections to the pedophile scandal. Can you or can you not judge a tree by the fruit it produces?>>

Whoa. I think you had better rethink and most definitely REPHRASE those last two sentences. Right now, it appears that you are attacking the Catholic FAITH because of the alleged sins of putative individual Catholic PEOPLE. And wouldn’t that be a terrible error on your part?
Click to expand...
It is not the Faith per se that I’m assailing but the failure of the institution in specific instances (of which the lack of censure of Fr. McBrien is an example) - in any event, I have gotten off topic - my apologies - I’m not trying to offend - I’m sorry.
 
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EA_Man:
So are there 30,000+ Protestant denominations or not?
On the one hand you say that they aren’t even denominations and on the other you say that the denominations are splintering rapidly - which is it?

Seems to me that the “church built upon Peter” has conducted its business in some very unChristian ways - from the False Decretals to invalid Papal Elections to the pedophile scandal. Can you or can you not judge a tree by the fruit it produces?

Peace
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Please, if you have problems with the Church, post them in another thread and leave your rants on topic. Also, why is it that almost every other post you have is attacking the church? Are you here to attack us or learn about Catholicism?
 
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EA_Man:
It is not the Faith per se that I’m assailing but the failure of the institution in specific instances (of which the lack of censure of Fr. McBrien is an example) - in any event, I have gotten off topic - my apologies - I’m not trying to offend - I’m sorry.
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EA Man:
Seems to me that the “church built upon Peter” has conducted its business in some very unChristian ways - from the False Decretals to invalid Papal Elections to the pedophile scandal. Can you or can you not judge a tree by the fruit it produces?
Click to expand...
If you aren’t attacking the faith there then what are you attacking?
 
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EA_Man:
Can you or can you not judge a tree by the fruit it produces?
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This is such a terrible game to play, and here’s why:

FLORIDA

Minister Charged In Murder Plot. Baptist minister George Crossley was arrested in early July and charged with soliciting the murder of a man he said had been harassing him. The Orlando-area minister reportedly outlined a murder plot to an undercover agent. He faces 25 years in prison and is being held without bail in a Seminole County jail. Source: Times-Union 7/4/96

**ILLINOIS
**

Pastor Beds Underage Girls? An investigation of Crossroads Church youth minister was launched when his wife found him in bed with another woman.

Jeffrey Hannah, 31, is accused of having sexual relationships with several underage female parishioners. Hannah was charged with 4 counts of criminal sexual assault and remains in custody in lieu of $150,000 bail.

The pastor has ties with several Christian youth groups in Illinois and one based in Colorado. Source: The News-Sun 7/4/96

ARKANSAS

Education Director Negotiated Plea. Christian-education director Rodney Willis Rogers, 48, admitted in July to sexually abusing 2 girls at the Holy Trinity Lutheran Church. Rogers pled guilty to 1 count each of sexual abuse, and 2nd-degree violation of a minor. Under a negotiated plea agreement, Rogers was sentenced to 5 years of state-supervised probation and ordered to pay $750 in lieu of a fine; $100 court costs; 3 counseling sessions for both victims, ages 15 and 11; attend a licensed treatment facility for counseling; and register as a habitual child sexual offender.

Rogers was convicted in 1970 and 1971 of child sexual abuse in California. Source: The Morning News 7/16/96

MICHIGAN

Peeping Pastor Pled No Contest. Liberty Christian Center pastor Jeffrey R. Horton, 43, pled no contest to 3 charges of eavesdropping by installing a device in a private place without consent. The minister was charged with installing hidden cameras in the women’s bathroom at the Milford church, in his home bathroom and in the bathroom of a parishioner’s home.

Horton faces up to 2 years in prison and a $2,000 fine for each count, but he will likely be permitted to serve probation from his home. Due to a class-action lawsuit filed by 3 victims, Horton was permitted to plead no contest.

“I was disappointed he offered the no-contest plea and then claims the reason was civil liability,” said an Oakland Assistant Prosecutor. “It suggests to me that he is more concerned with being sued than with the victims’ rights.” Sources: The Oakland Press 6/4/96; The Detroit News 5/3/96

NEW YORK

Jailed Minister Granted Appeal. Methodist minister Nathaniel T. Grady, who has been in prison more than a decade for a conviction of child sexual abuse was granted a new appeal by a Federal judge in June and released on $200,000 bond. Grady was 1 of 5 men convicted in similar child molestation cases in day-care centers in the mid-80s. Four of the defendants’ convictions have been overturned. Source: Newsday 7/13/96, 7/12/96

…
And all of this is from one year - moreover, it happens every year. Isn’t it interesting how you only hear about the priests? It’s almost as if Satan wants it that way. In any case, no one is safe from the charges you have levelled. It’s probably best not to level the charges again.

God Bless,
RyanL
 
Due to the falling level of charity and the off topic nature of these final posts, this thread is now closed.

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