Fr. Nicholas Gruner

[Anonymous2]

I wish it were possible to condense the large amount of information on the topic to show those who stubbornly insist (where even Mother Angelica disagreed) that “everything has been released, Russia is a booming Catholic country, and the world is at peace just as promised.”

This type of hand-waving, deliberate refusal to accept reality is similar to those who, seeing 50% of the Sunday Mass pews empty from 1958 (the Traditional Latin Mass) to 2002 (the Novus Ordo Mass), seminary entrant numbers drop 90%+ in the same time, and other similar disastrous statistics, conclude that one who points out the obviously deleterious effect of innovations such as Communion in the hand standing up, vernacular, versus populum Masses, females serving at the altar and handling the Most Blessed Sacrament, and other aberrations are simply “not loyal to the pope!” or “disobedient!”

To paraphrase Fr. Copleston, there will always be some for whom calm, reasoned analysis of the facts at hand, even where the conclusions show that not everything is rainbows and daffodils after 1960, is “disobedience!”

 

[Anonymous2]

Superstition. Magic. Gnosticism. Fear-mongering.

1. I’m waiting for you to explain how a pope can consecrate Russia in union with all the world’s bishops while not actually saying the word “Russia” and not having the world’s episcopate with him.
2. The salvation of millions of souls is far more than “gnosticism” or “fear-mongering.”

70,000 people saw this miracle (of the sun) occur at Fatima. The popes of the last century have all taken the words spoken by the Most Blessed Virgin seriously to heart, particularly Venerable Pius XII, who, with astounding accuracy, predicted the coming turmoil in the Church:

“I am worried by the Blessed Virgin’s messages to Lucy of Fatima. This persistence of Mary about the dangers which menace the Church is a divine warning against the suicide of altering the Faith, in her liturgy, her theology and her soul. …

“I hear all around me innovators who wish to dismantle the Sacred Chapel, destroy the universal flame of the Church, reject her ornaments and make her feel remorse for her historical past.

“A day will come when the civilized world will deny its God, when the Church will doubt as Peter doubted. She will be tempted to believe that man has become God. In our churches, Christians will search in vain for the red lamp where God awaits them, like Mary Magdalene weeping before the empty tomb, they will ask, ‘Where have they taken Him?’” (Quoted in Msgr. Georges Roche’s Pius XII Devant L’Histoire, pp. 52-53)"

cfnews.org/MaimedRites.htm

“The suicide of altering” the Faith, liturgy, and theology…the desire to “make [the Church] feel remorse for her historical past [ahem, the papal “apologies” campaign, ahem],” the temptation to “believe that man has become God” and the desperate search for Blessed Sacrament which many Catholics undertake when they walk into churches…and all this predicted THIRTY YEARS before Vatican II.

I do believe Venerable Pius XII hit it spot-on, and eerily so.

1. Finally, a very nice and concise summary from Fisheaters on those who dismiss Fatima and the inquiries surrounding it, like you did, as relatively unimportant:

"I am coming to the text with the notions that Pope Pius XII, Cardinal Ciappi, Cardinal Ratzinger, and many others who’ve read the Third Secret led me to believe, and with the common sense notion that God doesn’t waste miracles and wouldn’t send the Blessed Virgin in 1917 to tell the world that a Pope will get shot in 1981…The Vatican would have us believe that a-way back in 1917, the very Queen of Heaven, the woman predestined before time to be the Mother of the Savior of mankind, appears to three children in Portugal to tell one of them a really big secret. This great secret — a secret that made Popes blanch, that had Catholics on edge and whose revelation they’d been led to anticipate in 1960 per Our Lady’s request — was that 64 years later, in 1981, a Pope would be shot. Not killed, just shot. If Shakespeare had written that story, he’d have called it “Much Ado About Nothing.” Now, 1960 comes and goes, and so does 1981. But 19 years after the shooting, here comes the big reveal. What a denouement! In spite of the fact that we know that the good God Who inspired Sacred Scripture is capable of so much more, this silliness wouldn’t pass as a good paperback plot, really.

fisheaters.com/onfatima2.html

Louis XVI was beheaded because he was a royal jerk, not because of any consecration of France or lack thereof.

Read St. Margaret Mary’s biography. Note the dates: June 17, 1689 and June 17, 1789. Consider the impact the French Revolution had on subsequent generations–and still has–to this day.

Where the Church approves a private revelation and where reason and common sense do not overthrow it (such as the “apparitions” of figures in various dairy products and sandwiches over the past few years), you and I would be fools to ignore its value in helping lead souls to God.

 

[MarieO2]

I wish it were possible to condense the large amount of information on the topic to show those who stubbornly insist (where even Mother Angelica disagreed) that “everything has been released, Russia is a booming Catholic country, and the world is at peace just as promised.”

This type of hand-waving, deliberate refusal to accept reality is similar to those who, seeing 50% of the Sunday Mass pews empty from 1958 (the Traditional Latin Mass) to 2002 (the Novus Ordo Mass), seminary entrant numbers drop 90%+ in the same time, and other similar disastrous statistics, conclude that one who points out the obviously deleterious effect of innovations such as Communion in the hand standing up, vernacular, versus populum Masses, females serving at the altar and handling the Most Blessed Sacrament, and other aberrations are simply “not loyal to the pope!” or “disobedient!”

To paraphrase Fr. Copleston, there will always be some for whom calm, reasoned analysis of the facts at hand, even where the conclusions show that not everything is rainbows and daffodils after 1960, is “disobedience!”

There will always be some for whom no explanation will suffice…not even from Sr Lucy herself.

 

[MarieO2]

Excuse me, but what “teaching authority of the Church” have I or any one else here contradicted or risen above?

The Pope, the Cardinals etc. my dear. Ya’all make Gruner your Pope and he isn’t the head of Christ’s Church. He is just another renegade cleric period! Sr Lucy over and over denounced Gruner and I think she should know.

 

[childofmary1143]

The Pope, the Cardinals etc. my dear. Ya’all make Gruner your Pope and he isn’t the head of Christ’s Church. He is just another renegade cleric period! Sr Lucy over and over denounced Gruner and I think she should know.

This is priceless. First we are told that Fatima is only private revelation and that there are some who are trying to raise it to the level of teaching authority and then these same people treat the Consecration (requested at Fatima) to be on a par with the teaching authority of the Pope.

Nowhere did anyone say that Gruner is Pope. Get your facts straight.

 

[qui_est_ce]

I do follow them in matters of dogma. The consecration of Russia in their PERSONAL opinion. Personal opinion is not dogma. It can be accepted or rejected.
Pope Pius X forbade women in the choir and the piano in Church. Why aren’t you obeying him? Could it be that it was his personal opinion and therfore not binding?
It is not wrong to disagree with the Church as to whether or not the Consecration was made or that the full Third Secret has been revealed.

If this is just personal opinion, why are the Fatima worshippers so whipped up about the supposed non consecration of Russia, that they follow a renagade priest, accuse at least two Popes, a Cardinal, Bishops, and Sister Lucy of lying?

As for Mother Angelica, she is not the Pope, so I don’t care what her opinion on the subject is. I never liked her show, her smug arrogance, and her making fun of people. So many people like her, I keep trying to watch her show, and still don’t like it. Now for sure, I will change the station when she is on.

Thanks for making it easy for me.

BTW, I have done my 5 First Saturdays, 9 First Fridays, and Pray the Rosary, Eucharistic Adoration and Benediction EVERY First Saturday, all made readily available by my wonderful NO parish. I am in a NO parish, and we have OLF devotions and a statue of her every First Saturday. Our NO priests always devote EVERY Saturday morning mass to the Blessed Mother. Our Parish has Rosary EVERY day of the week before 8:00 AM mass, and every Wednesday at 6:30.

All rosaries have Fatima prayer. I learned Rosary in TLM, having been raised pre Vat I through Sacraments of Iniation, including Confirmation in 1st grade. NEVER did we say the Fatima prayer with Rosary in those days. Must be some new-fangled addition from Vatican II, when things got finalized in the mid '70’s.

 

[Silver_Thread]

The Pope, the Cardinals etc. my dear. Ya’all make Gruner your Pope and he isn’t the head of Christ’s Church. He is just another renegade cleric period! Sr Lucy over and over denounced Gruner and I think she should know.

Would you show me proof that Sr. Lucy denounced Fr. Gruner. That would be interesting!

 

[MrS]

Would you show me proof that Sr. Lucy denounced Fr. Gruner. That would be interesting!

Don’t hold your breath waiting for that “proof”.

It will come at the same time that “proof” of JPII saying he actually did consecrate Russia as per the Blessed Mother’s exact direction.

Both never happened. Pope John Paul II, the Pretty Good never put an end to this discussion… cuz it hasn’t ended yet.

.

 

[Pax_et_Caritas]

Read St. Margaret Mary’s biography. Note the dates: June 17, 1689 and June 17, 1789. Consider the impact the French Revolution had on subsequent generations–and still has–to this day.

Personally, I expect that on October 13, 2017, the Pope will be killed along with the others mentioned in the portion of the Third Secret we were given in 2,000, unless before that the consecration takes place. But based on the history of man, I doubt it will be done. Mankind has a very bad track record of obeying what God says to do (in this case via the Blessed Mother).

And I also have to say that I am not at all surprised that people will blindly follow those who claim that Russia has been consecrated. After all, I remember not too long ago when these same type of people would actually argued that “pro multis” should be translated as “for all”. In spite of all of the evidence to the contrary (even official Church documents that condemned the false translations) the blind followers of the blind persisted in this error, and called those who defended the truth “disobedient”. That came to an end when Rome finally admitted the truth (after 37 years of saying and implying the contrary).

Similarly, these same type of people argued for 37 years that the old Mass was forbidden and thus requried a special “Indult”. That lie also came to and end when Rome finally admitted the contrary on September 14 of this year.

Rest assured, that the day will come when Rome will finally release the rest of the Third Secret, and the blind followers of the blind will once again be put to shame. You would think that they would be a little more humble by now. After all, how many times will it take for them to be proven wrong before they stop following blind leaders of the blind who tell them that black is white and white is black? They seem to think that believing a lie makes them “faithful”, while those who refuse to accept an obvious lie are “disobedient”. Welcome to the great apostasy.

It is just too bad seeing fellow Catholics who willingly allow themselves to be deceived by deceivers, simply because they are in high places. It would be best if they followed the advise of our Lord who told us to “beware of wolves in sheeps clothing”.

In our day of confusion and apostasy, good and holy Priests such as Fr. Gruner are persecuted by wolves, while child molesters are protected and heretics are left alone.

Open thy eyes. We no longer live in a day when we can blindly follow whatever comes from those in authority. Those who blindly followed the Bishops during the Arians days became Arains themselves, while the “disobedient” were the ones who preserved the faith. At times God allows wolves to enter the flock as a punishment for sins. We are in such a day.

It is just too bad there are so many Catholics who are willing to follow the wolves, especially when God has provided us with a means of learning the truth… which is probably why he allowed the explosion of information to correspond with the great apostasy - so that those who sincerely wanted to know the truth (when the hierarchy wasn’t giving it to them) cold find it.

 

[Anonymous2]

After all, how many times will it take for them to be proven wrong before they stop following blind leaders of the blind who tell them that black is white and white is black? They seem to think that believing a lie makes them “faithful”, while those who refuse to accept an obvious lie are “disobedient”. Welcome to the great apostasy.

Pax et Caritas:

You make a number of excellent points, particularly regarding the utterly false and contradictory notion of “obedience” endorsed by many in the Church (they are endorsing precisely the opposite).

However, please, speak of no dates, do not predict days when certain people will die.

Our Divine Lord was very clear; it is not for us to know the seasons and times. I certainly hope this pope “ad multos annos.”

He is one of perhaps less than 10 living people who knows the whole secret, and I believe, with prayer, he may release it.

The goal in mentioning 1689 and 1789 was to show firstly how the Faith and private revelations pertaining to the Faith can have SEVERE and ENORMOUS geo-political questions which far outreach the tiny grotto or cova where the apparition took place.

The other goal was to inspire people to pray for the Consecration of Russia and the conversion of that nation, as well as the release of the Third Secret, in its entirety, in conformity with the will of God and His Blessed Virgin Mother.

The failure to comply with the Blessed Virgin’s wishes is enough to inspire real fear and the desire to make reparation.

Our Lord will not allow His Blessed Virgin Mother to be mistreated, and failing to honor Her requests is to do just that (a reminder for us faithful, too, to complete the Five First Saturdays).

 

[AlexV]

More fear-mongering. “Oh yes, it’s a private revelation and you are not required to believe in it, but if you don’t believe in it, watch out, because God won’t allow Mary to be disrespected, and the sky will fall, and nations will be annihilated, and bad things will happen to nearly everyone…”

On and on and on.

So many wholesome things to focus on in the faith…including the liturgy…and what do some people obsess over? Alleged messages from Mary, preferably with commentary from a disobedient priest who won’t return to his diocese despite episcopal order.

Avoid nonsense. Embrace traditional, authentic Catholicism…not the new gnosticism.

 

[planter654]

Personally, I expect that on October 13, 2017, the Pope will be killed along with the others mentioned in the portion of the Third Secret we were given in 2,000, unless before that the consecration takes place. But based on the history of man, I doubt it will be done. Mankind has a very bad track record of obeying what God says to do (in this case via the Blessed Mother).

And I also have to say that I am not at all surprised that people will blindly follow those who claim that Russia has been consecrated. After all, I remember not too long ago when these same type of people would actually argued that “pro multis” should be translated as “for all”. In spite of all of the evidence to the contrary (even official Church documents that condemned the false translations) the blind followers of the blind persisted in this error, and called those who defended the truth “disobedient”. That came to an end when Rome finally admitted the truth (after 37 years of saying and implying the contrary).

Similarly, these same type of people argued for 37 years that the old Mass was forbidden and thus requried a special “Indult”. That lie also came to and end when Rome finally admitted the contrary on September 14 of this year.

Rest assured, that the day will come when Rome will finally release the rest of the Third Secret, and the blind followers of the blind will once again be put to shame. You would think that they would be a little more humble by now. After all, how many times will it take for them to be proven wrong before they stop following blind leaders of the blind who tell them that black is white and white is black? They seem to think that believing a lie makes them “faithful”, while those who refuse to accept an obvious lie are “disobedient”. Welcome to the great apostasy.

It is just too bad seeing fellow Catholics who willingly allow themselves to be deceived by deceivers, simply because they are in high places. It would be best if they followed the advise of our Lord who told us to “beware of wolves in sheeps clothing”.

In our day of confusion and apostasy, good and holy Priests such as Fr. Gruner are persecuted by wolves, while child molesters are protected and heretics are left alone.

Open thy eyes. We no longer live in a day when we can blindly follow whatever comes from those in authority. Those who blindly followed the Bishops during the Arians days became Arains themselves, while the “disobedient” were the ones who preserved the faith. At times God allows wolves to enter the flock as a punishment for sins. We are in such a day.

It is just too bad there are so many Catholics who are willing to follow the wolves, especially when God has provided us with a means of learning the truth… which is probably why he allowed the explosion of information to correspond with the great apostasy - so that those who sincerely wanted to know the truth (when the hierarchy wasn’t giving it to them) cold find it.

Thank you for this God Bless

 

[Anonymous2]

"Oh yes, it’s a private revelation and you are not required to believe in it

This is true, though given the empirically obvious signs confirming its authenticity, it would indeed be foolish not to believe.

but if you don’t believe in it, watch out, because God won’t allow Mary to be disrespected, and the sky will fall, and nations will be annihilated, and bad things will happen to nearly everyone…"

I did not say that the sky will fall or that any apocalyptic event would transpire if individual people did not accept a private revelation.

Your example therefore fails.

It is a different case, however, when ALL of the popes since the time in question HAVE believed in the authenticity of the revelation, HAVE interpreted its neglect as portending grave consequences (see the astounding quote of Venerable Pius XII, in 1931 no less!), and HAVE gone so far as to attempt, in various ways, to comply with the wishes expressed by the Blessed Virgin (Venerable Pius XII in 1942 and 1952, Pope Paul VI in 1964, Pope John Paul II in 1982 and 1984).

and what do some people obsess over?

Is one Internet forum discussion grounds for use of the word “obsess”? I will speak only for myself, but, apart from these forum discussions, which I rarely enter into, I do not sit around all day thinking about these issues.

Alleged messages from Mary

So I take it you do not believe in the authenticity of Fatima?

Would pictures of some of the 70,000 standing awe-struck at the spinning sun suffice?: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Newspaper_fatima.jpg

How about extracts from articles, written by atheistic newspapers, testifying to the same:

ewtn.com/library/MARY/TSFATIMA.HTM

preferably with commentary from a disobedient priest who won’t return to his diocese despite episcopal order.

You’ll note that what I have said has nothing to do with Fr. Gruner. I have already noted that I have no connection with Fr. Gruner, do not receive his publications, and know very little about the situation which has evidently drummed up such vitriol directed against him as evidenced in this thread.

Avoid nonsense.

The message of Fatima is a confirmation of the truth of Catholicism, not nonsense. We are reminded of the reality of Hell, the reality that many souls go to Hell, the need of penance and sacrificing for sinners, the necessity of the daily Rosary, the necessity of reparation, devotion to the Immaculate Heart and the Blessed Sacrament…I think you can fill in the rest.

To call Fatima “nonsense” is nonsense.

 

[Pax_et_Caritas]

Pax et Caritas:

You make a number of excellent points, particularly regarding the utterly false and contradictory notion of “obedience” endorsed by many in the Church (they are endorsing precisely the opposite).

However, please, speak of no dates, do not predict days when certain people will die.

Our Divine Lord was very clear; it is not for us to know the seasons and times.

I wasn’t predicting it. I just think it may happen that way as it did with the King of France. It’s just a mere opinion, nothing more, and there is nothing wrong with having an opinion… especially when I realize I could be completely wrong.

One reason I think this parallel may occur (the vision of the Pope being killed exactly 100 years later) is because Jesus himself draws the parallel between the King of France not consecrating his country to the Sacred Heart (as required by Jesus), and the Pope not consecrating Russia.

This is what Jesus said to Sister Lucy in August 1931:

Jesus to Sister Lucy: “Make it known to My ministers, given that they follow the example of the King of France in delaying the execution of My requests, they will follow him into misfortune”.

And this;

Jesus to Sister Lucy: “They did not wish to heed My request! Like the King of France they will repent of it, and they will do it, but it will be late. Russia will have already spread its errors in the world, provoking wars and persecutions against the Church.”

I certainly hope this pope “ad multos annos.”

He is one of perhaps less than 10 living people who knows the whole secret, and I believe, with prayer, he may release it.

He certainly may release the rest of the Secret, and he may even do the correct consecration… but I doubt it. I hope and pray that I am wrong, but my guess is that things will unfold as they were predicted to unfold. The Pope will not obey the request of heaven, and as such will be killed along with many Priests and Bishops (as the portion of the Third Secret released in 2000 predicts), and only later will a future Pope do what heaven requested. Again, I truly hope I am wrong, but that is what I think will happen. Time will tell.

 

[stmaria]

This is what Jesus said to Sister Lucy in August 1931:

 

[Pax_et_Caritas]

I have never paid much attention to this quote before. Pius XII failed to do the consecration and so did John Paul. They both consecrated the world

 

[Shoshana]

stmaria;3113419:

I agree. Anyone who is familiar with the errors of Russia (communism) will clearly see that they have spread and are spreading. In fact, they are spreading at a more rapid pace every day.

Let alone New Age stuff…women working…and day care.

 

[childofmary1143]

More fear-mongering. “Oh yes, it’s a private revelation and you are not required to believe in it, but if you don’t believe in it, watch out, because God won’t allow Mary to be disrespected, and the sky will fall, and nations will be annihilated, and bad things will happen to nearly everyone…”

Repeating the same heretical statements won’t make them authentic. For all your education, it won’t serve you well if you keep preaching heresy.

On and on and on.

So many wholesome things to focus on in the faith…including the liturgy…and what do some people obsess over? Alleged messages from Mary, preferably with commentary from a disobedient priest who won’t return to his diocese despite episcopal order.

If Gruner is out of the church for what he did then what does that make you to deny the CATHOLIC CHURCH’S declaration that the apparitions of Fatima are true. Just because we aren’t required to believe in Fatima doesn’t mean it didn’t happen.

Avoid nonsense. Embrace traditional, authentic Catholicism…not the new gnosticism.

For you to compare following the message of Fatima with gnosticism is saying that the Church is incapable of guiding souls to God.

Shame on you.

 

[AlexV]

Now I’m accused of “heresy”…what exactly? That’s a canonical charge. People have been banned from this site for accusations thereof.

Father Gruner is a disobedient priest. He is a priest of the Diocese of Avellino, which has NOT excardinatred him. His bishop has repeatedly asked him to return. He refuses. Willful disobedience. He claims he doesn’t know Italian (he’s had 30 years to learn). Whyever did he get ordained there, then? Hmm…

Fatima added NOTHING to the deposit of the faith. Not one thing. It is not required to believe in it, OR to justify why one wouldn’t/doesn’t believe in it.

 

[childofmary1143]

Now I’m accused of “heresy”…what exactly? That’s a canonical charge. People have been banned from this site for accusations thereof.

Father Gruner is a disobedient priest. He is a priest of the Diocese of Avellino, which has NOT excardinatred him. His bishop has repeatedly asked him to return. He refuses. Willful disobedience. He claims he doesn’t know Italian (he’s had 30 years to learn). Whyever did he get ordained there, then? Hmm…

Fatima added NOTHING to the deposit of the faith. Not one thing. It is not required to believe in it, OR to justify why one wouldn’t/doesn’t believe in it.

Even though the thread is about Father Gruner, it has naturally flowed into about what he is saying.

Everything you just said about Father Gruner, I totally agree with. Facts are facts. However, I took from some of your posts that belief in the APPROVED apparitions of Fatima was equal with gnosticism, superstition and other sinful vices and behaviours. If I am mistaken in this, please state otherwise.

Yes Fatima adds NOTHING to the deposit of the faith and we don’t HAVE to believe in it, however I believe a sincere Catholic can’t criticize the MESSAGE of Fatima as the Church, which is infallible in faith and morals, has approved it.

For the record I am disappointed in Father Gruner for associating with people who hold sedevacantist opinions and tendencies.