Fr. Nicholas Gruner

[Shoshana]

While I was thinking before falling asleep, why is it that private revelations need not be believed in and it won’t take away from your faith, but there are some divine messages that the Church has acted upon? Like first Saturdays, first Fridays, The Fatima Prayer in the Rosary. the institution of the devotion of the Sacred Heart, the institution of the Sunday of Divine mercy…and the list goes on…

If the church seems to obey these things, why did the church wait for 40 years to disclose the supposed ‘secret’? Why would mother Church take any chances that Russia would spread its errors? And Russia has…they were the first abortion mills as we know it. The rest of the world followed suit. The occult was very prominent in Russia and this phenomena has spread its wings to encompass the world as we kno wit! Was there disbelief on the part of Mother Church in not believing that Russia could ever spread its errors?

Just honest questions about the actions of the Church on acting on some of the dictates from heaven but not all…and if it is not mandatory, why listen at all?

 

[AlexV]

I don’t listen. Because all this talk of “secrets” that haven’t been “acted upon” IS redolent with the savor of gnosticism, plain and simple.

Abortion existed in the ancient world. Rampantly in Rome. It didn’t start with Russia.

The occult existed in the ancient world. Rampantly in Rome. It didn’t start with Russia.

 

[Shoshana]

I don’t listen. Because all this talk of “secrets” that haven’t been “acted upon” IS redolent with the savor of gnosticism, plain and simple.

Abortion existed in the ancient world. Rampantly in Rome. It didn’t start with Russia.

The occult existed in the ancient world. Rampantly in Rome. It didn’t start with Russia.

You are very funny! Are you calling me a gnostic? You are young…maybe too young to discuss these things.

Abortion existed for a very long time…abortion mills have not!!! Read my post!

The occult existed also since the beginning of time…but istead of arguing with you, I would have you read the book ‘The Occult in Russia and Soviet Culture’ by Bernice Rosenthal…Your eyes just might open up to the reality of this situation.

You seem to want us to think that you have the key to traditional, orthodox Catholicity…well…we will let you think that.

 

[AlexV]

Garden variety millennialism and apocalypticism.

When Christians were being slaughtered by the thousands in ancient Rome, the prevalent belief was the world would end very soon.

When the Fatima crowd gets going in the present day, the prevalent belief is there will be chastisements, doom and gloom, Russian and Chinese nukes (read the sensationalist pages of Gruner’s magazine), blah blah blah.

Every age thinks it is seeing the end times and the worst of times. Russia, ancient Rome, whatever…makes little difference.

Meanwhile the Church offers the sound wisdom: be not afraid, don’t worry about the day or the hour, etc., etc.

Too much of the alleged Fatima message is bound up in a real fear-mongering and terror about the end of the world and possible disasters that loom ahead. The traditional Catholic worries about Mass and Divine Office and says who cares to such sensationalistic nonsense that distracts us from the truly important.

 

[Shoshana]

Garden variety millennialism and apocalypticism.

When Christians were being slaughtered by the thousands in ancient Rome, the prevalent belief was the world would end very soon.

When the Fatima crowd gets going in the present day, the prevalent belief is there will be chastisements, doom and gloom, Russian and Chinese nukes (read the sensationalist pages of Gruner’s magazine), blah blah blah.

Every age thinks it is seeing the end times and the worst of times. Russia, ancient Rome, whatever…makes little difference.

Meanwhile the Church offers the sound wisdom: be not afraid, don’t worry about the day or the hour, etc., etc.

Too much of the alleged Fatima message is bound up in a real fear-mongering and terror about the end of the world and possible disasters that loom ahead. The traditional Catholic worries about Mass and Divine Office and says who cares to such sensationalistic nonsense that distracts us from the truly important.

What I have written has nothing to do with doom and gloom…at all. I am, in my last post, speaking about errors. I am also speaking about what has been fulfilled as far as private revelates go and what hasn’t. I am wondering why the picking of some and not of others.

I am much aware of what is important. But it does not hurt to discuss these things. I am not afraid…the only fear I have is not followng God’s will for me. And this is a healthy fear. The church ahs suffered many ‘doom and gloom’ days and years and centuries for that matter. She will prevail. Still does not take away the fact that she also suffers from what you continue to bring up ‘gnosticism’…what is being discussed here has nothing to do with gnosticism though.

But New Age does…

 

[MarieO2]

Nowhere did anyone say that Gruner is Pope. Get your facts straight.

Interesting…since you slam dunk the Pope that really is Pope but push Gruners theories as the gospel.

Would you show me proof that Sr. Lucy denounced Fr. Gruner. That would be interesting!

November 17, 2001, between Archbishop Tarcisio Bertone S.D.B., secretary of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, and Sister Mary Lucy of Jesus and of the Immaculate Heart.

“The meeting, which lasted more than two hours, took place on the afternoon of Saturday, November 17. Sister Lucy, who will be 95 on March 22 next year, was in good health, lucid and vivacious. She first of all professed her love for and devotion to the Holy Father. She prays much for him and for the Church as a whole.”

With reference to the third part of the secret of Fatima, she affirmed that she had attentively read and meditated upon the booklet published by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith and confirmed everything that was written there. To whoever imagines that some part of the secret has been hidden, she replied: “Everything has been published; no secret remains.” To those who speak and write of new revelations she said: “There is no truth in this. If I had received new revelations I would have told no-one, but I would have communicated them directly to the Holy Father.”

Sister Lucy was asked: “What do you say to the persistent affirmations of Fr. Gruner who is gathering signatures in order that the Pope may finally consecrate Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary, which has never been done?”. She replied: “The Carmelite Community has rejected the forms for gathering the signatures. I have already said that the consecration that Our Lady desired was accomplished in 1984 and was accepted in heaven.”

And to Gruners dumb statement Sister Lucy is extremely worried…blah blah!!!

“Is it true,” the communique concludes, “that Sister Lucy is extremely worried by recent events and does not sleep but prays night and day?”. Sister Lucy replied: **“It is not true. How could I pray during the day if I did not rest at night? How many things are attributed to me! How many things I am supposed to have done! **Let them read my book, there are the advice and appeals that correspond to Our Lady’s wishes. Prayer and penitence, accompanied by an immense faith in God, will save the world.”

 

[childofmary1143]

Interesting…since you slam dunk the Pope that really is Pope but push Gruners theories as the gospel.

Get your facts straight. I don’t know how an intelligent person can say that I said/insinuated any of the above mentioned.

 

[childofmary1143]

Too much of the alleged Fatima message is bound up in a real fear-mongering and terror about the end of the world and possible disasters that loom ahead. The traditional Catholic worries about Mass and Divine Office and says who cares to such sensationalistic nonsense that distracts us from the truly important.

You are not in a position to say what traditional Catholics worry about. You can only comment on yourself. Furthermore Catholics worry (or should worry about) making truthful comments as THAT is in Public Revelation and to say that Fatima is “alleged” is not true.

 

[AlexV]

This may come as a shock to you, “childofmary”, but a Catholic in GOOD STANDING can choose to believe that Mary never appeared at Fatima. The Church says the apparitions are “worthy of belief”. That doesn’t = they happened, it means the events there are worthy of one’s belief. Not required. Not definitive. Not dogma.

A Catholic can ignore Fatima. A Catholic can choose to believe Mary didn’t appear there and say anything.

 

[childofmary1143]

This may come as a shock to you, “childofmary”, but a Catholic in GOOD STANDING can choose to believe that Mary never appeared at Fatima. The Church says the apparitions are “worthy of belief”. That doesn’t = they happened, it means the events there are worthy of one’s belief. Not required. Not definitive. Not dogma.

A Catholic can ignore Fatima. A Catholic can choose to believe Mary didn’t appear there and say anything.

Catholics can ignore or not believe in Fatima. I have NEVER said anything to the contrary. However, because the Church says that apparitions are “worthy of belief” and that the Church can’t err, means that Fatima isn’t alleged (as if it weren’t true).

 

[AlexV]

“Worthy of belief” isn’t the same thing as “demanding of belief” or “definitely happened”. It strictly means the message of Fatima has nothing contrary to faith or morals, and there is worth to the idea that something supernatural happened there. IT DOES NOT mean it definitely happened. A Catholic is free to believe it did not happen. And remain in good standing.

 

[childofmary1143]

“Worthy of belief” isn’t the same thing as “demanding of belief” or “definitely happened”. It strictly means the message of Fatima has nothing contrary to faith or morals, and there is worth to the idea that something supernatural happened there. IT DOES NOT mean it definitely happened. A Catholic is free to believe it did not happen. And remain in good standing.

If that is the case then why a full Church investigation. The message of Fatima can fit a small book. If I were to write a book on Catholic theology, I should get an imprimatur. I would imagine that to be a lot less complicated than what was involved with Fatima. Yet if I understand what you are saying, what the Church is actually saying is like an imprimatur?

 

[AlexV]

You got it. The Church says it’s worthy of belief. The Church doesn’t say it definitively happened, and certainly doesn’t say you have to believe in it, or explain why you don’t believe in it as the case may be.

 

[maggieodae]

Get your facts straight. I don’t know how an intelligent person can say that I said/insinuated any of the above mentioned.

 

[maggieodae]

You got it. The Church says it’s worthy of belief. The Church doesn’t say it definitively happened, and certainly doesn’t say you have to believe in it, or explain why you don’t believe in it as the case may be.

 

[MrS]

I “choose” to believe. And I am awed by the two miracles…

The first of course is what the 70,000 saw - the spinning of the sun, and its approach to earth that certainly must have woke up the sleeping and the doubtful.

The second… that all those wet people had their clothes, hair etc so quickly and thoroughly dried out… without any burns or bodily effects of the intense heat that even dried up the deep mud they stood in.

The miracle describes how the sun came to the earth, not the other way around. Wonder what kind of “spin” the helio vs. geo centrists would put on that?

Oh well… Merry Christmas to all.
.

 

[Joe_Kelley]

If people would pay attention to the call to pray the rosary and observe the First Saturdays, they would accomplish much more than they do worrying about whether the pope has done his part.

A problem with all apparitions and messages is that people become entranced by the predictions of the future and ignore the instructions on what they are to do.

 

[Shoshana]

If people would pay attention to the call to pray the rosary and observe the First Saturdays, they would accomplish much more than they do worrying about whether the pope has done his part.

A problem with all apparitions and messages is that people become entranced by the predictions of the future and ignore the instructions on what they are to do.

:clapping:
And if all Catholics (including myself) would have prayed the rosary since the apparitions for the sake of peace, we would not be in the mess we always are in!

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Do you think the Blessed Virgin’s request to consecrate Russia was genuine? If you do, do you actually believe it really doesn’t matter whether or not it is done?

As a matter of principle I do not discuss my views of private revelations. I do so because they are not dogma and are not required to be believed in. I also do so now that I am seen as more than just a lay person and I do not wish my personal beliefs to sway others in matters that are not required.

This is why I speak out against those who wish to raise Fatima to dogma which, while you state that Fatima is a private revelation and not required, this very question from you shows that there is more to it than just being a private revelation in your eyes.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

If Gruner is out of the church for what he did then what does that make you to deny the CATHOLIC CHURCH’S declaration that the apparitions of Fatima are true. Just because we aren’t required to believe in Fatima doesn’t mean it didn’t happen.

The Church never rules that a private revelation is true, only that it is worthy of belief while not requiring belief in it.

I will also add, that just because we are not required to believe in Fatima also doesn’t mean that it did happen, by the Church allowing someone to not believe in it they are allowing for the chance that it did not happen.