Fr. Z: Austria--Female altar servers up, ordinations down

  • Thread starter Thread starter JimG
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
The only people that can answer that are the young altar serving boys. I know altar serving girls and they don’t enjoy altar serving. During Daily Mass at my current parish there are no altar servers at all. Go figure.

I assume the ordination crisis in Austria comes from the liberal progressive Catholicism that I keep reading about.
 
Our archdiocese (fairly conservative, in a heavily non-Catholic area of the country) has long had female altar servers. We also have a very healthy number of ordinations, with many seminarians in the pipeline.

I credit the good example of parents, and excellent Catholic elementary and high school religious instruction. Virtually all the seminarians are graduates of the local Catholic H.S.
 
Correlation does not equal causation.
Sometimes it doesn’t, but it doesn’t take much to figure out that if half the altar servers are female, then that reduces by 50% the potential servers who may be inspired to go on to become priests.

Altar servers aside, I do think there is an issue with the sanctuary becoming ‘feminised’ with the priest often ending up being the only man there, surrounded by a bunch of (usually middle-aged and elderly) women.

What signal is this sending young boys who may be potential future priests? If they see the priest as a man surrounding himself (often not through choice) and chatting with a bunch of old women, is that likely to be seen as an inspirational male role model for a young boy?

It would be interesting to see if there was any data regarding altar boys and seminarians from FSSP and ICKSP that can be compared like for like with OF parishes.
 
The only people that can answer that are the young altar serving boys. I know altar serving girls and they don’t enjoy altar serving. During Daily Mass at my current parish there are no altar servers at all. Go figure.

I assume the ordination crisis in Austria comes from the liberal progressive Catholicism that I keep reading about.
Actually, I don’t think that’s right. The only way to determine correlation is not to ask altar servers, but to asks priests and seminarians. Find out if they were altar servers as boys and if it had an effect on their vocation.

80% of the ordinations on 2014 were altar servers, the highest percentage of all prior ministries. That would indicate a significant impact.
 
80% of the ordinations on 2014 were altar servers, the highest percentage of all prior ministries. That would indicate a significant impact.
It’s not the % of seminarians who were sltar boys that really matters, but the % of altar servers that go on to be priests. That 80% means little if the percentage of altar servers who go on to become priests is rapidly decreasing.
 
Sometimes it doesn’t, but it doesn’t take much to figure out that if half the altar servers are female, then that reduces by 50% the potential servers who may be inspired to go on to become priests.
Logically, it is equally likely that there is another cause that causes them both, like maybe the increased secularization of Europe. That’s a thing as well, you know.
 
Sometimes it doesn’t, but it doesn’t take much to figure out that if half the altar servers are female, then that reduces by 50% the potential servers who may be inspired to go on to become priests.

Altar servers aside, I do think there is an issue with the sanctuary becoming ‘feminised’ with the priest often ending up being the only man there, surrounded by a bunch of (usually middle-aged and elderly) women.

What signal is this sending young boys who may be potential future priests? If they see the priest as a man surrounding himself (often not through choice) and chatting with a bunch of old women, is that likely to be seen as an inspirational male role model for a young boy?

It would be interesting to see if there was any data regarding altar boys and seminarians from FSSP and ICKSP that can be compared like for like with OF parishes.
Anecdotal of course, but me personally, I never wanted to be an alter server for two (juvenile) reasons:
  1. I didn’t want to be seen as a goodie-two-shoes by my friends. I had good evidence of this, as that was exactly what everyone thought of the one boy who did it regularly.
  2. A bunch of girls did alter serving, including my sister and her friends, and I didn’t want to be caught dead doing something they were doing.
Also didn’t help that my dad actively aided my avoidance of alter-serving duties through a clever smoke screen of persuasion of my mother and grandmother; my grandmother has tirelessly tried to this day to get one of her grandsons to be a priest. Unfortunately of all her many grandchildren only 4 of them were boys and of those 4, 3 were me and my brothers. One uncle married a methodist who refused to convert and so my one male cousin was pretty much methodist and out of the picture for the priesthood. Which put all the pressure on us, with my dad playing stubborn defense, lol.
 
Logically, it is equally likely that there is another cause that causes them both, like maybe the increased secularization of Europe. That’s a thing as well, you know.
Of course. But it would seem in Fr. Z’s world, secularization, the sexual revolution, the affect of the abuse scandals, the less respect religion - of all types - has in today’s Western world – none of this has any influence on vocations. It’s all the fault of female altar servers.
 
It’s not the % of seminarians who were sltar boys that really matters, but the % of altar servers that go on to be priests. That 80% means little if the percentage of altar servers who go on to become priests is rapidly decreasing.
No, that’s not right. A very small percentage of people go on to be priests. What we need to see is what is common in the backgrounds of people who actually recognize and answer the call to be priests.

It actually tells us very little what percentage of altar boys become priests or any thing else for that matter. For example, it tells us very little how many people who regularly do Eucharistic adoration become priests, but it tells us quite a bit that 70% of new priests practiced Eucharistic adoration before entering the seminary.

Or 50% of priests went to a Catholic elementary school (a higher rate that the normal population).
 
  1. A bunch of girls did alter serving, including my sister and her friends, and I didn’t want to be caught dead doing something they were doing.
    .
This is not anecdotal, I think this happens a lot. At a parish where girls become the majority group of altar servers, it snowballs and that is all you end up having.
 
It’s not the % of seminarians who were sltar boys that really matters, but the % of altar servers that go on to be priests. That 80% means little if the percentage of altar servers who go on to become priests is rapidly decreasing.
To add on to my previous post, do you know that they will actually tell you what percentage of lung cancer patients smoke (87%), but its hard to find what percentage of smokers end up with lung cancer. Its the same thing. Its easier to identify a cause and effect if you look at the effect and work backwards.
 
Logically, it is equally likely that there is another cause that causes them both, like maybe the increased secularization of Europe. That’s a thing as well, you know.
It would then follow that vocations in the FSSP and other more traditional groups would also be going into freefall, but from what I understand I don’t think that is the case.

There is a huge problem with secularisation in Europe, but that is all the more reason for us to stand firmly against it, rather than seek to reach an accomodation with it. We should view secularisation as the work of the devil, rather than the inevitable result of modernity.
 
It would then follow that vocations in the FSSP and other more traditional groups would also be going into freefall, but from what I understand I don’t think that is the case.
Not at all. If you bring in a bushel of extra variables all at once then causation becomes more muddled not less. One could just as easily bring in some countries in Africa where vocations are strong and really muddle things.
 
Sometimes it doesn’t, but it doesn’t take much to figure out that if half the altar servers are female, then that reduces by 50% the potential servers who may be inspired to go on to become priests

Altar servers aside, I do think there is an issue with the sanctuary becoming ‘feminised’ with the priest often ending up being the only man there, surrounded by a bunch of (usually middle-aged and elderly) women

What signal is this sending young boys who may be potential future priests? If they see the priest as a man surrounding himself (often not through choice) and chatting with a bunch of old women, is that likely to be seen as an inspirational male role model for a young boy?

It would be interesting to see if there was any data regarding altar boys and seminarians from FSSP and ICKSP that can be compared like for like with OF parishes
As a priest, I must say this has to be one of the most deplorable posts I have read on this forum and that is saying much

First, thinking back to the parish where I was baptised and confirmed, that parish has given more or less 25 priests to the Church in something over the past seven decades to which I can give witness. That is a splendid statistic for a parish. However, that parish had THOUSANDS of Altar Servers across those decades

The corps of altar servers should never be treated as though it is a pass through to priesthood. It is a thing of itself, the vast majority of whom do not become priests or consider priesthood

Most of us who are priests served Mass in youth. But we’re very aware that we may be the only ones from the whole period when we served who even considered the priesthood

Women and girls have served my Masses since the clarification of canon 230 in 1994…and they’re most welcomed. Also welcomed to serve are adult men who are married. I did insist, before I retired, that only those who want to be there of their own desire would be allowed in the sanctuary

Second “If they see the priest as a man surrounding himself (often not through choice) and chatting with a bunch of old women, is that likely to be seen as an inspirational male role model for a young boy?” is a statement so ugly, so grotesque, it is to be condemned…and in the strongest terms

For this once upon a time young boy of decades long past, it was the “old women” so active in the service of the parish who taught me about the care of the sacristy from top to bottom and one end to the other – the linens, the vestments, flower arranging for the sanctuary, the whole lot…and they did it well enough that I was sacristan of the seminary from my first year…applying perspiration linen guards with needle and thread on stoles and chasubles among many other duties that I had learned from these “old women”. What they taught me served me in very good stead

These “old women,” as a group, were moreover the ones who set up burses to underwrite the seminary students educational expenses. Others of that parish contributed from time to time, to be sure, but these “old women” organised themselves specifically for that purpose. They were heroes to all seminarians directly helped by them – and cherished by those who had not needed the help but appreciated their incredible generosity in favour of priestly vocations

With the reform and the renewal of the liturgy, I’m delighted that those who have long been the most devoted to the parishes behind the scenes have the opportunity to do different forms of ministry according to their tastes…from traditional sacristy type work or religious education to serving Mass, lectoring, as well as distributing the Eucharist at Mass or in hospitals or to the home-bound. And that is something that should be modeled to every young person – because that is the reality of the Church at the parish and diocesan level

Third, moving from days long past as a seminarian to when I was ordained to when I was a formator, the ones I was most leery of were those “encouraged” to consider a vocation. Immediately behind them, however, were those who were simply delusional about what was really our life, either in seminary or post-seminary – they lived in a sort of Romantic delirium

Those whom a parish priest will mostly work with are women. And that is becoming more true, not less true, as women’s roles in the Church expand
  • Women diocesan chancery officials
  • Women seminary professors
  • Women canonists
  • Women theologians
  • Women employed by the parish offices and religious education programme
Fourth, since seminarians spend significant time in parish assignments throughout the course of their studies and from the beginning, as part of the diocese’s discernment if this man has a vocation at all, those responsible assess a seminarian’s ability to work with the various people and situations he will be paired with in assignments as a measure of what to expect when and if he is eventually called to ordination

Fifth as far as a comparison to either the Priestly Fraternity of Saint Peter or the Institute of Christ the King Sovereign Priest…the former has some 300 priests incardinated. For the perspective of Americans, that is less than half the number of priests incardinated in the Archdiocese of Los Angeles – and the United States has approximately 200 dioceses. And that is one country. The number I gave is their total for the whole world. And they have existed for almost thirty years

The latter institute is significantly smaller that the Priestly Fraternity of Saint Peter…less than a hundred priests incardinated. We have abbeys with more priests than there are priests incardinated in the Institute of Christ the King Sovereign Priest. But then, these societies only serve those attached to the vetus ordo, which is an infinitesimal number when compared with the statistics of the rest of a diocese
 
Altar servers aside, I do think there is an issue with the sanctuary becoming ‘feminised’ with the priest often ending up being the only man there, surrounded by a bunch of (usually middle-aged and elderly) women.

What signal is this sending young boys who may be potential future priests? If they see the priest as a man surrounding himself (often not through choice) and chatting with a bunch of old women, is that likely to be seen as an inspirational male role model for a young boy?
I’m not sure where you’re getting the picture you paint above, because at the many parishes I’ve attended, I’ve always seen a significant percentage of men serving as ushers, lectors, custodians/ maintenance men, musicians, and sometimes deacons or adult altar servers. The only time I might see a priest with just a couple of women is if it’s a morning weekday Mass with very few people in attendance anyway (and generally no young boys at that time).

I’m also not sure what the issue is with the women being “middle aged and elderly”. The priest is supposed to be celibate, and any young boy who is considering the priesthood as a way to attract young goodlooking girls probably should be going into some other profession.

I know quite a few priests who play sports or are involved with Catholic youth activities so the young men have a lot of opportunities to see the priest surrounded by teenage boys or swinging a bat on a ball field or something other than chatting with old ladies. I also know a lot of young men who wouldn’t look askance at an elderly lady because they have beloved grandmas and great aunts at home. Your perspective seems kind of biased and a bit odd.
 
Actually, I don’t think that’s right. The only way to determine correlation is not to ask altar servers, but to asks priests and seminarians. Find out if they were altar servers as boys and if it had an effect on their vocation.

80% of the ordinations on 2014 were altar servers, the highest percentage of all prior ministries. That would indicate a significant impact.
And how many young girls went on to join an order?
 
Of course. But it would seem in Fr. Z’s world, secularization, the sexual revolution, the affect of the abuse scandals, the less respect religion - of all types - has in today’s Western world – none of this has any influence on vocations. It’s all the fault of female altar servers.
This^^^^^

Secularization probably has more to do with it than any other issue. According to CARA, the 18 to @29 age group has the lowest rate of attendance at Mass - somewhere around 20% or less. They may have been altar servers, but if they are no longer attending Mass, it is going to be slightly difficult to get them into a seminary…

Amazingly, Fr. Z didn’t really get on his high horse: no more high school seminaries (there may be one or two out there somewhere); few if any college seminaries… and the great majority of seminarians have a college degree and have worked for a period of time before discerning a vocation.

And far be it from anyone to do any research as to how many women who are joining orders were altar servers…

My parish has produced 4 priests, 2 deacons, and 2 women who have professed vows in more traditional style orders. 1 current seminarian.

And we have both boy and girl altar servers.

But we also have 24/7/363 Perpetual Adoration, which I suspect has been far more an influence on the ordained and professed than how many altar girls we have had.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top