Fr. Z: Austria--Female altar servers up, ordinations down

[pianistclare]

Ah, finally, we have arrived at that curse of humanity - feminism!

Last time I checked, Our Lady was a woman…

Why is it that people can seem to see only two sides of a coin: either “keep 'em barefoot and pregnant, and if I want your opinion I will tell you what to say”, or “radical, wild eyed men-hating child aborting (expletive deleted)”.

I raised my daughters to know that they were intelligent; capable, and equal in dignity to any man out there - and in some instances, more so. They learned modesty, honesty, a work ethic, dignity, and that no man had a right to tell them “they were just girls” or that they couldn’t do something because of their gender.

And I listened to the put-downs they received, acknowledged how it hurt, reminded of their dignity and worth as human beings, and as women, and sent they back out into the fray.

I have met far, far too many knuckle dragging men (and boys) who are so fearful of their own limitations and so doubtful of their true masculinity that they have to put women down - including their wives, mothers, daughters, sisters and co-workers.

One does not have to have a matriarchy to realize that a large amount of patriarchy is based on fear.

And given that service has all too typically been seen the sphere of women, it is truly amazing that when women seek to serve (as in, being an altar server), true horror is expressed.

What absolute poppycock. Girls serving at the altar of the Lord! Egalitarianism! It is going to destroy the family! They are usurping a God-given right! Gender confusion! Destruction of leadership models (never mind that unless they become a Master of Ceremony, there is zero “leadership” in an altar server).

Yeah, we need to make sure they all take classes in tatting and sewing; wash the dishes, clean the floor, and for all that is holy, be demur and learn to bat their eyelashes.

But Heaven forbid that they might bring up a cruet of wine or water, be involved in the lavabo, hold a paten, or bring up the chalice to the altar! An insult to The Lord!

If we let that loose, why, they might even have an opinion! Can you imagine - why, they might even want to become a theologian, or, or, or… words escape me.

What an absolute dismissive put down.

I agree. When girls have historically been the “servers” of others, not all of a sudden they are taking something away from boys?
The thing is, the boys aren’t in Mass, and their parents don’t want to sign them up for training. We offer training 4 times a year. Seldom more than 3 kids show up.
We’ll take the little girls.

 

[reggieM]

What absolute poppycock. Girls serving at the altar of the Lord! Egalitarianism! It is going to destroy the family! They are usurping a God-given right! Gender confusion! Destruction of leadership models (never mind that unless they become a Master of Ceremony, there is zero “leadership” in an altar server).

Yeah, we need to make sure they all take classes in tatting and sewing; wash the dishes, clean the floor, and for all that is holy, be demur and learn to bat their eyelashes.

I hear your sarcasm and anger.
I’ve heard all the supposed arguments in favor of feminism also. And I’m delighted to know that there are many women who reject them and find them as destructive as I do. That gave me a lot of confidence. There are women who like being women – and they don’t want to pretend they are men.
Clearly, you see it another way. So, you’ll take that “back into the fray”. If you’re fighting against men, you’ll certainly win something. But there’s much to lose also - as I see it.

But Heaven forbid that they might bring up a cruet of wine or water, be involved in the lavabo, hold a paten, or bring up the chalice to the altar! An insult to The Lord!

I’m thankful that there are many Catholic parishes where women do not serve at the altar. In many parishes (FSSP, Eastern Rites and others), women are not permitted in the sanctuary (the traditional rule for Catholic liturgy for centuries) - so perhaps you shouldn’t make a mockery of the liturgical practices of your fellow Catholics?

If we let that loose, why, they might even have an opinion! Can you imagine - why, they might even want to become a theologian, or, or, or… words escape me.

What an absolute dismissive put down.

I’m sorry you see it that way. As I said, I’m glad to know many women who disagree with you.

 

[reggieM]

I agree. When girls have historically been the “servers” of others, not all of a sudden they are taking something away from boys?
The thing is, the boys aren’t in Mass, and their parents don’t want to sign them up for training. We offer training 4 times a year. Seldom more than 3 kids show up.
We’ll take the little girls.

That’s basically how it works. When men don’t want to fulfill their responsiblities, women will take over. It happens in family life all the time. I see it happening in the workplace and in politics.

There are still some non-feminist cultures in the world where women know these truths. Instead of taking a man’s role, they will support and encourage men to do what belongs to men alone to do. Otherwise, if it becomes a competition, men will surrender, bail out and leave it to women.

God made things a certain way, as I see it. When we fight against that order, problems ensue. I think that’s what Fr. Z was talking about.

 

[pianistclare]

That’s basically how it works. When men don’t want to fulfill their responsiblities, women will take over. It happens in family life all the time. I see it happening in the workplace and in politics.

And how is that the fault of feminists, exactly?

There are still some non-feminist cultures in the world where women know these truths. Instead of taking a man’s role, they will support and encourage men to do what belongs to men alone to do. Otherwise, if it becomes a competition, men will surrender, bail out and leave it to women.

I guess you only go to restaurants with waiters, and not waitresses then.

God made things a certain way, as I see it. When we fight against that order, problems ensue. I think that’s what Fr. Z was talking about.

God (Christ) allowed women to serve Him.
There are many Scripture references to this.
The passover meal would have been primarily prepared by women.

Honestly, this is not a hill to die on, and it’s not a good argument against girls serving.
I went to a huge funeral Mass this morning. 3 adult women serving.
Everything went well.
Isn’t that the end result?

If it isn’t then we are mis-representing altar server training on a huge scale.
“Want to be a priest? Come and learn to altar serve…it will get you a vocation and an entre into the seminary!”
Check.
I can see the boys lining up now. THAT is sarcasm.
What otjm said was not sarcasm, nor was it anger.

 

[reggieM]

I went to a huge funeral Mass this morning. 3 adult women serving.
Everything went well.
Isn’t that the end result?

If Fr. Z is right, the next time it will be a communion service and not a Mass. And everything will go nicely. After that, we don’t even need a male deacon. Women can lead us in prayer. I have seen this tragectory played out and nobody seems to know or care. It all worked very nicely. Does the Mass have any intrinsic value? Or can a single priest just consecrate thousands of host for distribution through the diocese each week? What difference does it make?

I can see the boys lining up now. THAT is sarcasm.

Yes, a form of ridicule.

What otjm said was not sarcasm, nor was it anger.

Well, I saw it differently:

Yeah, we need to make sure they all take classes in tatting and sewing; wash the dishes, clean the floor, and for all that is holy, be demur and learn to bat their eyelashes.

 

[reggieM]

Fr. Z is just one priest. I wouldn’t say he is wildly popular, but he has a small group of supporters. I know several women who read him faithfully and they agree fully with his assessment about the effect of altar girls on vocations. I don’t think he is saying it is the only factor in vocation decline, but as I said - it’s a manifestation of other destructive forces in society like feminism and the confusion of gender roles.

Fr. Z says this:

It is not just the presence of the women, it’s the womanish attitude of the clergy which repulses young men who would otherwise consider priesthood.

Instead of getting upset about the term “womanish attitude” why not see it this way? Women should have a womanish attitude, not men. The attitude is not a problem - it’s a good thing. Women should be women. That’s the way God made the world. But if men take a womanish attitude, then that is a major problem.
But that’s what we have today.
That’s the result of feminism - a desired goal. Make men have a womanish attitude towards everything and supposedly everything will work out nicely.
But it’s killing vocations, for one thing - and neutering our parishes of masculine leadership.

I’ve known several seminarians (some now priests) who have complained about this very thing. God has established a celibate, male priesthood and there are certain social and spiritual dynamics that go along with that concept that will either foster it or harm it.

 

[ProVobis]

If Fr. Z is right, the next time it will be a communion service and not a Mass. And everything will go nicely. After that, we don’t even need a male deacon. Women can lead us in prayer. I have seen this tragectory played out and nobody seems to know or care. It all worked very nicely. Does the Mass have any intrinsic value? Or can a single priest just consecrate thousands of host for distribution through the diocese each week? What difference does it make?

Definitely. I have never refused prayers from anyone.

 

[OraLabora]

God has established a celibate, male priesthood

Um, no. You blasted otjm for not respecting other rites in the Church:

I’m thankful that there are many Catholic parishes where women do not serve at the altar. In many parishes (FSSP, Eastern Rites and others), women are not permitted in the sanctuary (the traditional rule for Catholic liturgy for centuries) - so perhaps you shouldn’t make a mockery of the liturgical practices of your fellow Catholics?

(my bold)

God established a male priesthood. He did not establish a celibate male priesthood. Eastern rite Catholic priests are not held to celibacy. Same for the Ordinariate, or Protestant clergy who converted.

 

[nodito]

But if men take a womanish attitude, then that is a major problem.
But that’s what we have today.
That’s the result of feminism - a desired goal. Make men have a womanish attitude towards everything and supposedly everything will work out nicely.

I think perhaps you are working with a different view of feminism than otjm.

On the one hand, there is the contemporary, secular form of feminism that is all about making men and women interchangeable. It’s the bra-burning, man-hating, abortion-supporting movement which we rightly reject.

Then there is a different form of feminism. It’s the feminism of Edith Stein and John Paul II (who brought us Mulieris Dignatem). This feminism recognized that men are different and not interchangeable but that women have gifts to offer in service of others that have often been ignored in various times and places throughout history. I’d argue that in many places (maybe even those cultures you see as ideal or refreshing), women are still not appreciated and recognized the way the Church would have them be. It is a feminism that recognizes that women are equal in dignity to men, and that we have legitimate options beyond just the traditional role of stay at home wife and mother.

Is it that you react against the first form of feminism or that you categorically reject both kinds?

 

[reggieM]

God established a male priesthood. He did not establish a celibate male priesthood.

I guess it depends upon how one views the laws of the Church and to what extent God is involved in the establishment of them.

 

[HelenRose]

“Growing number of women in the sanctuary. Shrinking number of ordinations to the priesthood.

Is there a correlation?

Sure there is.”

wdtprs.com/blog/2017/07/female-altar-servers-up-ordinations-down/

The sun rises and the rooster crows believing that if he did not crow the sun would remain hidden.

 

[HelenRose]

Sometimes it doesn’t, but it doesn’t take much to figure out that if half the altar servers are female, then that reduces by 50% the potential servers who may be inspired to go on to become priests.

Altar servers aside, I do think there is an issue with the sanctuary becoming ‘feminised’ with the priest often ending up being the only man there, surrounded by a bunch of (usually middle-aged and elderly) women.

What signal is this sending young boys who may be potential future priests? If they see the priest as a man surrounding himself (often not through choice) and chatting with a bunch of old women, is that likely to be seen as an inspirational male role model for a young boy?

It would be interesting to see if there was any data regarding altar boys and seminarians from FSSP and ICKSP that can be compared like for like with OF parishes.

And pray tell me: What is wrong with a bunch of middle-aged and elderly women? Are we fools to be insulted in such a way?

Grandma’s have wonderful influence on boys especially when men don’t step up to the job. Don’t blame women - especially grandmas - because men do not come up to do their responsibilities.

 

[reggieM]

I think perhaps you are working with a different view of feminism than otjm.

On the one hand, there is the contemporary, secular form of feminism that is all about making men and women interchangeable. It’s the bra-burning, man-hating, abortion-supporting movement which we rightly reject.

Then there is a different form of feminism. It’s the feminism of Edith Stein and John Paul II (who brought us Mulieris Dignatem). This feminism recognized that men are different and not interchangeable but that women have gifts to offer in service of others that have often been ignored in various times and places throughout history. I’d argue that in many places (maybe even those cultures you see as ideal or refreshing), women are still not appreciated and recognized the way the Church would have them be. It is a feminism that recognizes that women are equal in dignity to men, and that we have legitimate options beyond just the traditional role of stay at home wife and mother.

Is it that you react against the first form of feminism or that you categorically reject both kinds?

You may be right that we’re taking past each other.

I don’t think the Church or Catholic thought in general has ever taught that women only have the option of stay at home wife and mother. So, I’d reject the idea that a new ideology called feminism is needed to promote that. As for Bl. Teresia Benedicta a Cruce - I don’t know what makes her a feminist or why I should consider her as such. She was cloistered behind a grill and forbidden contact with men… As I see it, feminism has no official status in Catholic teaching, so I’d only use the term in your first sense, exclusively. It’s an ideology that, at best, is revolutionary and damaging and at worst is filled with hatred for men and women.
I’d add, that feminism (version 1) is not an idea supported by women alone. There are many men who support it, for their own selfish reasons. But men who support that, only destroy themselves and the women they are with.
I’d just close by saying that it seemed that otjm was ridiculing the idea of staying home, sewing; wash the dishes, clean the floor,
I have a very close friend, wife and mother of 10 children - very intelligent, well-read, very devoted Catholic woman, who homeschools and stays home and spends much of her time cleaning. It’s an honorable work done for love and the results are more important than it is made to seem.
It is feminism that disrespects a wonderful Catholic woman like that. And she is fully aware of this and is more anti-feminist than I am (and has raised 6 daughters to be excellent young women).

 

[ProVobis]

And pray tell me: What is wrong with a bunch of middle-aged and elderly women? Are we fools to be insulted in such a way?

Grandma’s have wonderful influence on boys especially when men don’t step up to the job. Don’t blame women - especially grandmas - because men do not come up to do their responsibilities.

Well, we had those nuns on us pretty hard, making sure that we were there 10 minutes before Mass on cold winter mornings and making sure we said the right prayers when we were putting on our cassocks and surpluses. If nothing else, it built a certain camaraderie among us boys. We even discussed it during our 50 yr reunion.

 

[reggieM]

And pray tell me: What is wrong with a bunch of middle-aged and elderly women? Are we fools to be insulted in such a way?

Grandma’s have wonderful influence on boys especially when men don’t step up to the job. Don’t blame women - especially grandmas - because men do not come up to do their responsibilities.

If men fail because women want to dominate and exert power over them, then blame needs to go to both sides of the equation. It takes two to tango. Many men want to avoid the responsibility and women gladly take their roles. That’s a sin for both.

We’re talking about forming young men to become real men.
I think of Vince Lombardi. Navy Seals commanders. Army Rangers.
Do men want women leading them in those roles? Do they want grandmas doing that sort of thing?
If not, then why is that a problem?
Why can’t men have a unique and irreplaceable role in understanding, leading and forming other men?
The Church understands that. That’s why we still have religious orders segregated by male or female.

 

[reggieM]

Well, we had those nuns on us pretty hard, making sure that we were there 10 minutes before Mass on cold winter mornings and making sure we said the right prayers when we were putting on our cassocks and surpluses. If nothing else, it built a certain camaraderie among us boys. We even discussed it during our 50 yr reunion.

I had those nuns also. They knew what they were doing.

 

[nodito]

As for Bl. Teresia Benedicta a Cruce - I don’t know what makes her a feminist or why I should consider her as such. She was cloistered behind a grill and forbidden contact with men…

I wonder if you might find it interesting to read some of Saint Teresa Benedicta’s writing. I would definitely consider her a feminist (in the holiest sense of the word) because in her writings and personal life she wrestled with sexism and many consider her to have pioneered the women’s movement in Germany before WWII. She was not fighting for sexual liberation by any means, but merely to be valued as a person equal to and as capable as a man. She was well educated and wanted to be a professor, but was restricted because she was female. So instead of teaching at the university level, she sorted papers for a male professor. She elected to become a cloistered nun - this doesn’t negate any of her previous writings or experiences any more than my choosing to be a stay at home mother means that I think women shouldn’t be able to be doctors, professors, or engineers.

As I see it, feminism has no official status in Catholic teaching, so I’d only use the term in your first sense, exclusively. It’s an ideology that, at best, is revolutionary and damaging and at worst is filled with hatred for men and women.

The Church says things like:
Mulieris Dignitatem:

Everything that has been said so far about Christ’s attitude to women confirms and clarifies, in the Holy Spirit, the truth about the equality of man and woman. One must speak of an essential “equality”, since both of them - the woman as much as the man - are created in the image and likeness of God. Both of them are equally capable of receiving the outpouring of divine truth and love in the Holy Spirit. Both receive his salvific and sanctifying “visits”.

The fact of being a man or a woman involves no limitation here, just as the salvific and sanctifying action of the Spirit in man is in no way limited by the fact that one is a Jew or a Greek, slave or free, according to the well-known words of Saint Paul: “For you are all one in Christ Jesus” (Gal 3:28).

I - and many others - use the term feminism to describe the belief espoused above, because it is radical, and it is a departure from some traditional thought. It is revolutionary in many ways because it pits itself against the strongly-held belief of many that women are inferior to men. To say that feminism holds no official status in the Church and that therefore we can reject it without scrutiny is akin to saying that we can reject the Abolition Movement or the Civil Rights Movement because those social movements aren’t codified in the catechism either. On the contrary, the Church speaks of treating people with respect and rejecting unjust discrimination. Feminism fights against unjust discrimination of women, just as the civil rights movement fought against unjust discrimination of African Americans.

You’re right that the term has been hijacked by some groups and that many feminists forget that women are different from men. There are people in the movement fighting for things that I believe will - ironically - ultimately hurt women (abortion and contraception come to mind). But let’s not throw the baby out with the bath water.

 

[reggieM]

I - and many others - use the term feminism to describe the belief espoused above, because it is radical, and it is a departure from some traditional thought. It is revolutionary in many ways because it pits itself against the strongly-held belief of many that women are inferior to men.

Thanks for this explanation. I don’t see it that way. I don’t think that it is a radical idea in Catholic thought to say that both women and men are made in the image of God and have an essential quality. Women were teachers and leaders in the Church for centuries. But I appreciate your perspective.

On the contrary, the Church speaks of treating people with respect and rejecting unjust discrimination. Feminism fights against unjust discrimination of women, just as the civil rights movement fought against unjust discrimination of African Americans.

Again, I disagree here. I don’t think feminism is respectful of men or women. I’ve experienced a lot of evil in my life from those who consider themselves feminists. If the term means “respect for women” - is there any mentally healthy woman on earth who is not a feminist? It seems like a manipulation of the language. If feminism supposedly means “showing respect for women” then we all have to be feminists.

You’re right that the term has been hijacked by some groups and that many feminists forget that women are different from men. There are people in the movement fighting for things that I believe will - ironically - ultimately hurt women (abortion and contraception come to mind). But let’s not throw the baby out with the bath water.

I look at my own life (as noted above), society in general, the crisis (as I see it) in the Church – and much (not all) of what I see as very destructive has come from feminism. But as I said also, feminism is a manifestation of a wider ideology that has resulted in the things you mention - destruction of family life through abortion, contraception, homosexuality and fornication. But along with that, the confusion and overturning of gender roles and the hatred directed at men is characteristic of a social movement - call it feminism or something else, the term doesn’t matter to me.

People can use whatever terminology they want to describe themselves, and define terms one way or another. For me, if the same term can mean both an evil social movement and a good one, then the term is no longer useful as such.

 

[nodito]

People can use whatever terminology they want to describe themselves, and define terms one way or another. For me, if the same term can mean both an evil social movement and a good one, then the term is no longer useful as such.

I agree words are important. What should we call it then? The movement/belief that men and woman are equal in dignity and that women should have the right to vote and drive cars and receive equal pay for equal work?

 

[nodito]

If the term means “respect for women” - is there any mentally healthy woman on earth who is not a feminist? It seems like a manipulation of the language. If feminism supposedly means “showing respect for women” then we all have to be feminists.

I think it’s more than just respect for women. I think it’s also (in is purest sense) an understanding that women are just as capable and intelligent and creative as men and that women have much to contribute to politics and economics and other fields that were for a very long time soley the purview of men.

I agree, every mentally healthy person should want this! I think some reject the feminist label because they associate it with ideologies that emerged during the sexual revolution that are sinful and wrong. I do think the movement itself started as a reaction to something that was also wrong, though: a stifling of feminine genius. It may seem obvious to you that woman are not inferior to men and that omen should be encouraged to respond to God’s call even if it means working outside the home, but for a long time in the United States this was not the case. In many places in the world, it is still not possible for women to move about freely without a male chaperone.