Fr. Zuhlsdorf answers the question, "Why Gregorian chant is better than 'Gather Us In' "

[markomalley]

even though the church indicates the chant needs to hold a place of honor, and indead the revised missal does that, the Church also encorages the developmetnof sacred music that reflect cultural differences and local traditions.
As such then it is not indicating the the chant should be the only music used in liturgical worship.

It does.

But you should look again at the post that I was answering above.

This individual stated,

*That is the opinion of one Priest, one who obviously does not like, or appreciate, contemporary music.

Hate to inform you, but at one time, Gregorian Chant was also new, and perceived to be “different” and “unsuitable”.

Just because it is old, does not make it more liturgical, or more suitable.

The participation of the people is a LOT more important than whether or not a piece of music has a long history with the church.*
This is clearly a flawed opinion.

I did not state that Gregorian Chant was the only acceptable form of music. However, in answering the question whether Gregorian Chant is better than “Gather us In”, it is obvious where the Council Fathers and the Holy See stand on the issue.

As far as development of sacred music, I have no argument with you. I quite enjoy many of the original compositions that can be heard at the Basilica of the National Shrine of the Immaculate Conception. Likewise, the Mass accompaniment at the Holy Father’s Mass in Scotland was wonderful, as well. All of which are very modern (new) works.

Works that reflect cultural differences are also appropriate when the Liturgy is celebrated in different cultures. Hearing some Arabesque style music in a Maronite Mass is wonderful, but it would not be appropriate in a Latin Rite parish within the US. The cultural reasons are obvious. Likewise, music appropriate in Africa would not be appropriate here, even if both parishes are Latin Rite…that is, of course, unless the parish in the US was a majority African **immigrant **parish. And so on.

But please don’t assume that I think that Gregorian chant and ONLY Gregorian chant is the only acceptable form of music. I don’t. Having said that, I can never see a situation where pseudo-Protestant music that talks about how wonderful we are and how we are going to build the City of God on God’s behalf…and so on and so forth…is ever appropriate in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Ever.

 

[FAB]

It does.

But you should look again at the post that I was answering above.

This individual stated,

*That is the opinion of one Priest, one who obviously does not like, or appreciate, contemporary music.

Hate to inform you, but at one time, Gregorian Chant was also new, and perceived to be “different” and “unsuitable”.

Just because it is old, does not make it more liturgical, or more suitable.

The participation of the people is a LOT more important than whether or not a piece of music has a long history with the church.*
This is clearly a flawed opinion.

I did not state that Gregorian Chant was the only acceptable form of music. However, in answering the question whether Gregorian Chant is better than “Gather us In”, it is obvious where the Council Fathers and the Holy See stand on the issue.

As far as development of sacred music, I have no argument with you. I quite enjoy many of the original compositions that can be heard at the Basilica of the National Shrine of the Immaculate Conception. Likewise, the Mass accompaniment at the Holy Father’s Mass in Scotland was wonderful, as well. All of which are very modern (new) works.

Works that reflect cultural differences are also appropriate when the Liturgy is celebrated in different cultures. Hearing some Arabesque style music in a Maronite Mass is wonderful, but it would not be appropriate in a Latin Rite parish within the US. The cultural reasons are obvious. Likewise, music appropriate in Africa would not be appropriate here, even if both parishes are Latin Rite…that is, of course, unless the parish in the US was a majority African **immigrant **parish. And so on.

But please don’t assume that I think that Gregorian chant and ONLY Gregorian chant is the only acceptable form of music. I don’t. Having said that, I can never see a situation where pseudo-Protestant music that talks about how wonderful we are and how we are going to build the City of God on God’s behalf…and so on and so forth…is ever appropriate in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Ever.

Actually "Gather us in " and “bult a city of God” fit nicely with Catholic Doctrine. THe mass is a communial worship and Christ called us to build the Kingdom, to bring it here on earth.

 

[latingirl]

Listening to chant right now…you just can’t beat that otherworldly sound!
:heaven::harp:

 

[jilly4ski]

Actually "Gather us in " and “bult a city of God” fit nicely with Catholic Doctrine. THe mass is a communial worship and Christ called us to build the Kingdom, to bring it here on earth.

Gather Us In Lyrics
Here in this place, new light is streaming
now is the darkness vanished away,
see, in this space, our fears and our dreamings,
brought here to you in the light of this day.

Gather us in the lost and forsaken
gather us in the blind and the lame;
call to us now, and we shall awaken
we shall arise at the sound of our name.

We are the young – our lives are a mystery
we are the old – who yearns for your face.
we have been sung throughout all of history
called to be light to the whole human race.

Gather us in the rich and the haughty
gather us in the proud and the strong
give us a heart so meek and so lowly
give us the courage to enter the song.

Here we will take the wine and the water
here we will **take **the bread of new birth
here you shall call your sons and your daughters
call us anew to be salt of the earth.

Give us to drink the** wine of compassion**
give us to eat the bread that is you
nourish us well and teach us to fashion
lives that are holy and hearts that are true.

I don’t know about you, but those last 2 verses don’t seem to “fit” real nicely with Catholic theology.

give us the courage to enter the song.

It’s like he knew the song was bad.

 

[At_Trent]

Listening to chant right now…you just can’t beat that otherworldly sound!
:heaven::harp:

Well, yes, it does take us far from the mundane world we live in. And that is a good thing for the soul imo

 

[rben20]

…
but my question is, for all of you who want only Gregorian chant at Mass,
do we tell all the Franciscans that Francis was wrong and totally unorthodox?

Sigh…Maybe you haven’t realized that the Franciscans do their thing and Romans do their own? And just maybe as already referenced the Romans have a huge preference for Gregorian Chant according to their tradition?

That is the opinion of one Priest, one who obviously does not like, or appreciate, contemporary music.

Hate to inform you, but at one time, Gregorian Chant was also new, and perceived to be “different” and “unsuitable”.

Just because it is old, does not make it more liturgical, or more suitable.

The participation of the people is a LOT more important than whether or not a piece of music has a long history with the church.

Do we go back to those days, when, “The difference between Protestants and Catholics is that Catholics don’t sing”?

I pray every day that the “traditionalists” never get sway over the Church again. If they do, they will drive out a very large proportion of the Roman Catholic faithful.

What an ignorant post.

 

[rben20]

Touche !

“Even if Catholics faithful to Tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ.”
St. Athanasius

“What if some novel contagion seek to infect the whole Church, and not merely a small portion of it? Then he will take care to cling to antiquity, which cannot now be led astray by any novel deceit.” St. Vincent of Lerins

“Indeed, the true friends of the people are neither revolutionaries, nor innovators: they are traditionalists.”
Pope St. Pius X

And to the OP, Fr Z is right imo.

 

[Elizabeth502]

I have not read either the link in the OP, or the rest of the thread. However, I feel fully qualified to comment on the mere question posed by said priest being featured.

I am a musician, from a family with well-trained ears and excellent musical exposure to all kinds of music. I am not prejudiced or narrow. I like an enormous variety of music, as almost all true musicians do, because what all good music has in common is certain standards of musicianship, but most especially tune and beat itself (the melody). If there are chords involved, then naturally chord progression and harmonies become part of the aesthetic package as well. Style is another aspect. Good classical, rock, reggae, country, folk, blues, etc. all have that in common.

The “music” of Gather Us In is just bad, as music. Simplistic, unappealing, repetitive. The ‘chorus’ tune is particularly grating, and the verses are practically indistinguishable melodically, from the ‘alternating’ line. (Not nearly enough contrast to provide an actual pattern.) Add to that the trite words, the odd concepts behind the words (If we’re so ‘haughty and proud’ when God ‘gathers us in,’ maybe we need to go to Confession before we “take” Communion. ) We’re not really supposed to literally “come as we are,” displaying our faults and sins in cavalier fashion. We’re supposed to adopt a much better interior disposition than letting our worst features hang out as we are “gathered in.”

I also don’t subscribe to “our lives” being a “mystery.” What is the meaning behind such a phrase? What does it mean to have 'courage to enter a song?" (Because we’ll be off-key?) I also find it trite to mention “our dreamings” (not a real word; a participle being used as a plural noun, when dreams would be the proper form for that) As if that’s not enough, we have the gall to proclaim (haughtily) that “we” “have been sung throughout all of history.” (We’re a historically famous congregation now, too? “Proud” indeed, and not in a positive way but in a rather deluded way.)

This just sounds like the worst of supposed (not actual) Vatican 2 spin-offs (perversions of V2). A simplistic view of God, of the Mass, of our responsibility in our relationship with God.

I’m really surprised when our cantor chooses this song, which is thankfully not too often, but often enough to make me squirm whenever it’s used as the processional. He usually has very good musical taste – easily 90% of the time.

 

[archangel04]

Sigh…Maybe you haven’t realized that the Franciscans do their thing and Romans do their own? And just maybe as already referenced the Romans have a huge preference for Gregorian Chant according to their tradition?

What an ignorant post.

It happens a lot the poster post an “ignorant” reply, but never responds to any of the other post the challenge his/her statement. Not trying to be uncharitable, but usually what we call trolls do this online.

 

[archangel04]

Here is what I like in no prefferance order, and I do use them in the background during prayer,

Old Roman chant - Statuit ei Dominus youtube.com/watch?v=Qbh8eg_1tDA&feature=related

Arabic Orthodox Chant - Holy Friday youtube.com/watch?v=6K-u6UYSjpY
Te Deum - 5th Century Monastic Chant youtube.com/watch?v=sqwV9l-U8ds
Miserere Mei Deus by Allegri youtube.com/watch?v=fcWo1hKHu40
Aspereges Me Domine youtube.com/watch?v=53QT2gsuwBc&feature=related

Finally Pange Lingua with modern tune in background and IMHO the best version of this song around! youtube.com/watch?v=-RH1qa4QjFM

 

[excubitor]

That is the opinion of one Priest, one who obviously does not like, or appreciate, contemporary music.

Hate to inform you, but at one time, Gregorian Chant was also new, and perceived to be “different” and “unsuitable”.

Do you have any evidence to substantiate this statement? Or have you constructed it in order to justify any new thing which is deemed different and unsuitable.

I pray every day that the “traditionalists” never get sway over the Church again. If they do, they will drive out a very large proportion of the Roman Catholic faithful.

If they don’t then the Catholic change will be driven by the fickle storms of whatever is new, novel and different, whether it is deemed suitable or not.

The anti-traditional modernist period post V2 has almost entirely devastated the church. If the church is to survive it needs to return to its ageless and traditional roots. Which of course include Gregorian chant.

 

[laszlo]

Here we will take the wine and the water
here we will take the bread of new birth
here you shall call your sons and your daughters
call us anew to be salt of the earth.

Give us to drink the wine of compassion
give us to eat the bread that is you
nourish us well and teach us to fashion
lives that are holy and hearts that are true.

I don’t know about you, but those last 2 verses don’t seem to “fit” real nicely with Catholic theology.

What is the theological difference between the take and receive? Ism’t the Catholic teaching since St Pius X that we should actively participate in the Eucharist?

drbo.org/cgi-bin/s?q=compassion&b=drb&t=2 is about the 15 occurrences of the word compassion in the Duoay-Rheims translation, mostly Jesus felt it. What is wrong with that?

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, as to give his only begotten Son;

isn’t this compassion?

The Mass for centuries was considered only and exclusively Christ’s sacrifice an affair between Him and the priest, excluding any active participation from the part of the laity. St Pius X understood that this is wrong, and we should understand him.

Yes, we need the understanding of our protestant brothers and sister to make full our incomplete understanding. And some hymns help us in this understanding.

 

[markomalley]

Actually "Gather us in " and “bult a city of God” fit nicely with Catholic Doctrine. THe mass is a communial worship and Christ called us to build the Kingdom, to bring it here on earth.

But what is the purpose of music in the Liturgy? Is the purpose of the music to draw us into the Sacred Mysteries or is it to inspire us to go forth and do good works? I would submit that the former is the purpose. (CCC 1157)

The only place where I could even REMOTELY see the song (City of God) being appropriate would be as a recessional hymn. Unfortunately, I usually see it being used as a processional hymn.

(And I’m stretching it here a LOT. I actually agree with Bishop Slattery’s analysis (posted above)

I don’t know about you, but those last 2 verses don’t seem to “fit” real nicely with Catholic theology.

That too, but I wasn’t even proposing a detailed analysis. I am talking about the overall themes of this type of music.

 

[Monte_RCMS]

Visit Google and type in:

Why Catholics Don’t Sing.

There is even a book about that!

 

[sing4joy]

The thing is, we can’t let the music stand in the way of the Mass. My central reason for becoming Catholic was the Real Presence :bowdown2:. It’s why I stay Catholic. The liturgical abuses at my parish make my skin crawl :bigyikes:, but I must receive Jesus. I admit that if the choir isn’t singing that weekend * I go to a different parish.

As for songs worse than “Gather Us In”, how about a really old one…".Sons of God, hear His holy word. Gather round the table of the Lord. Eat His Body Drink His Blood and we’ll sing a song of love Allelu Allelu Allelu Alleluia." Talk about happy claptrapping. yuck.:doh2:*

 

[heathernoel]

I’m only in RCIA, due to be confirmed on Pentecost but I’m really intimidated by posts like these.

Gregorian chant is beautiful! It fills my soul, but I don’t understand a word of it. I can’t imagine going to Mass and not being able to be in communion with my brothers and sisters because I don’t know how to sing it or know what it means to boot

I don’t know if you all mean to purposely tear apart “Gather Us In” or if you mean any of the songs in the Red Worship Book in general, but I feel that would be throwing the baby out with the bath water. I happen to like “Gather Us In”, and other songs found within that book.

 

[StTommyMore]

I’m only in RCIA, due to be confirmed on Pentecost but I’m really intimidated by posts like these.

Gregorian chant is beautiful! It fills my soul, but I don’t understand a word of it. I can’t imagine going to Mass and not being able to be in communion with my brothers and sisters because I don’t know how to sing it or know what it means to boot

I don’t know if you all mean to purposely tear apart “Gather Us In” or if you mean any of the songs in the Red Worship Book in general, but I feel that would be throwing the baby out with the bath water. I happen to like “Gather Us In”, and other songs found within that book.

For the Liturgy, it is not a case of “liking” or “not liking”. Music in the liturgy is to draw us into prayer, rather than to entertain.

 

[ProVobis]

What is the theological difference between the take and receive?

I think you can throw theology out the window when you have popular tunes that require a certain number of syllables to make them “singable.” That’s why they should be discouraged if not forbidden.

 

[markomalley]

I’m only in RCIA, due to be confirmed on Pentecost but I’m really intimidated by posts like these.

Gregorian chant is beautiful! It fills my soul, but I don’t understand a word of it. I can’t imagine going to Mass and not being able to be in communion with my brothers and sisters because I don’t know how to sing it or know what it means to boot

I don’t know if you all mean to purposely tear apart “Gather Us In” or if you mean any of the songs in the Red Worship Book in general, but I feel that would be throwing the baby out with the bath water. I happen to like “Gather Us In”, and other songs found within that book.

The problem is that the modern “happy clappy” songs tend to draw us away from the real purpose of the Mass.

St Paul said that “Christ our Passover is sacrificed for us.” (I Cor 5:7). The purpose of the Mass is to draw us into that great Mystery. The CCC not only indicates that this is a remembrance of what he did for us, but it is a re-presentation of this sacrifice and it is a reflection of heaven, as well (See CCC 1090).

The chanting within the Mass is supposed to support that worship and draw us deeper into the paschal mystery so that we can truly worship God in spirit and in truth.

Unfortunately, most of the modern “happy clappy” songs are so banal in nature that they drive us away from that heavenly worship: the consecration of the bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Christ and the oblation of the Victim to God. And what we’re left with as the highlight of the mass being a communal seder dinner, as it were.

Lex Orandi Lex Credendi. As we pray, we believe. As a result of this banality, our very theology and belief in the real presence is diluted.

 

[Brendan]

I think you can throw theology out the window when you have popular tunes that require a certain number of syllables to make them “singable.” That’s why they should be discouraged if not forbidden.

Exaclly,

jilly4 posted this earlier which proves the point

Here we will take the wine and the water
here we will take the bread of new birth
here you shall call your sons and your daughters
call us anew to be salt of the earth.

We do not ‘take’ the Eucharist, we recieve it, it is a gift.

But Haugen cannot use ‘recieve’ as it will not fit the meter.

So we have theological error presented simply to make the song singable.

Since the bishops have correctly noted that the purpose of the hymn is to be liturgical, there should be no theological error in our liturgy.

We then have to ask, what is the purpose of a hymn? Is it to simply sing, or is it to pray? That determines the emphasis.

If it is simply to sing, then yes, the music should be primarly and the text be made to fit the music.

But that is NOT what the Church teaches a hymn is. It is a prayer, a liturgical action. Therefore, the integrity of the text, it’s expression of theology, MUST come first.

The music should fit the text, not the text to fit the music.

Chant, by it’s nature, is variable meter, so it can accomodate any text.