Mtt 26:[26] And whilst they were at supper, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and broke: and gave to his disciples, and said: Take ye, and eat. This is my body.
Those analogies ring false. Better, one might ask if hearing that a person “took the daily Times” or “received the daily Times” meant the same thing, and the answer would be yes. “Taking a paper” is an idiom, and carries no connotation in the slightest of helping oneself. The same goes for “taking Communion,” which is why it has been used in that sense for centuries. See further, e.g., [4], [5], [6].
Ironic that the poster has left this conversation after spouting his rant and does nothing for rebuttal no? Troll…I think yes.
So what do you think it should be? (Note two uses of the verb accipere. Can they have the same connotation?)
WHOA THERE!!! The concept of Hymn existed before Christianity itself! I had to learn that in a music-history class. And there are examples of Hymns BEFORE Luther anyway: Christe Redemptor omnium (it’s an old chanted hymn), most of the old German hymns we sing in the CATHOLIC church are of CATHOLIC origin, like Grosser Gott (Holy God, We Praise Thy Name) and Hail Holy Queen. The German hymns are a TYPE of hymns called “Chorale”, which IS a type of polyphony, but simpler, and easier to sing. Be Thou My Vision is also of Catholic origin.
) . The organ was used in Churches because it imitated the sound of every instrument with different stops and ranks and such. Trombones (or Sakbuts, if you want to get periodical) were first church instruments. As a trumpet player and someone who cannot sing for the life of me with many vocalist friends, I know that achieving a’capella take LOTS of practice, even for simple chorales. Because nobody has the time to rehearse this, besides maybe two or three people, and many can’t read music, it’s just SMART to use instruments. Does this mean I think that we shouldn’t ever have a’cappella and switch to Christian pop music in Church? Heck No!!! I do think it’s acceptable to use guitars, if, and only if there’s no better option, which many times is the case. Also, I hope people realize that the accordion is a type of organ…
My suggestion is that you send an appropriately worded e-mail to Bishop Slattery (Diocese of Tulsa, Oklahoma) and correct him. This was something he wrote after all, not something I came up with out of my own little imagination.Anyway, I’m not usually this…angry-sounding(?)…It just upsets me when people make claims without much knowledge on things and assume thing like “Hymns are Protestant”, and go on to say things that discourage newer young musicians to make music for the Church. And thus ends my vent.
This is opinion.
So how do you feel about classical accompaniments to the Mass, such as those written by most composers from Bach on up?
Ephemeral floating quality?! I would say droning, creepy quality. GloriousOrder, this is purely an opinion, and I’m glad that you and others appreciate chant. But many people do not hear it with the same soul that you hear it! Like I said in my above post, I dislike Gregorian chant a lot. It does NOT “shake me to the core,” but rather, it grates on my nerves and makes me want to yell, “If you get near a melody, sing it.”
And do you think this would be a good thing, for all these people to leave the Catholic Church? You like the idea of getting rid of the chaff?
This is quite a huge assumption about people. How can you possibly judge the state of people’s souls and assume that they are only attending Mass for the “sense of community?” How can you assume that someone who prefers contemporary music or traditional hymns does not “have a sense of the terrible righteousnes and awe of almighty God?”
Again, this is purely opinion. There are many people who feel as I do about chant. It is foreign to our Western ears, and we have a difficult time staying focused on worship because of the irregular melody and metre, and we find the “non-harmonic world” disturbing and confusing. It makes me think of various occult practices.
But that’s just it. Pitches that can be added or subtracted as needed so the theological meaning isn’t compromised. In chant you can do that; in what we call hymns today, you can’t, or at least it’s difficult. You try to find the right syllables, and often even verses full of them, to fit some catchy tune. What’s your focus, writing something Mass-related and theologically correct or finding clever semi-spiritual, semi-secular lyrics to sell to a semi-perceptive crowd?
Then I guess Vatican II didn’t take your point of view into consideration.
WHOA THERE!!! The concept of Hymn existed before Christianity itself! I had to learn that in a music-history class. And there are examples of Hymns BEFORE Luther anyway: Christe Redemptor omnium (it’s an old chanted hymn), most of the old German hymns we sing in the CATHOLIC church are of CATHOLIC origin, like Grosser Gott (Holy God, We Praise Thy Name) and Hail Holy Queen. The German hymns are a TYPE of hymns called “Chorale”, which IS a type of polyphony, but simpler, and easier to sing. Be Thou My Vision is also of Catholic origin.
Also, I dislike how many “Traditionalists” abhor any and all composers that wrote church music after Vatican II and clump them with Marty Haugen like there’s no difference. There are PLENTY of decent young composers out there, like myself, who can right good reverent Mass music that doesn’t take forever to learn, like extremely melismatic chants. And they certainly have more creativity than whoever wrote Kyrie XVI, Sanctus XVIII, and Agnus Dei XVIII (although, back in the first centuries, and up until the Renaissance era, music wasn’t supposed to be creative, just pitches to say words to). Mind you, there is good chant, but is seems to be very hard to come by now-a-days.
And then there’s the “Instruments in Church = Mortal Sin” thing (I know it’s not quite that emphasized, but I tend to exaggerate things…don’t know why
Anyway, I’m not usually this…angry-sounding(?)…It just upsets me when people make claims without much knowledge on things and assume thing like “Hymns are Protestant”, and go on to say things that discourage newer young musicians to make music for the Church. And thus ends my vent.
:bowdown:I don’t mind classical accompaniments, but interestingly, I see it as “Protestant”–and that’s OK. I don’t have the same aversion to “Protestant” music in the Mass that some of the posters have.
I try not to, but it’s like a reflex. Perhaps if I had been raised with it all the time in church, I would think of it as “worship” music.Nonsense. Mark Thompson’s reply to this argument clearly shows that the notion behind “take” and “receive” is the same, regardless of the particular word that is used. Is there really a “difference in English theology and attitude,” or are you simply being argumentative about an issue that clashes with your personal preferences?
What makes you think that Latin is the answer to every issue in the Church? There was a poster here on CAF a couple of years ago who said that his Portuguese grandmother was taught all of the Latin prayers, prayed them her whole life and never once understood what it was she was praying. Is this preferable to you? Do you think that this is the best way to commit our hearts, minds and intellects to our faith?
And that’s OK. I understand that and fully appreciate that the Church has the authority, and that I don’t have authority.Then I guess Vatican II didn’t take your point of view into consideration.
Perhaps if people who love ancient forms of music were more charitable, those of us who dislike ancient music would be more open.
Lol exactly! It’s the first I’ve ever heard anyone say they dislike or hate Gregorian Chant. Even those who prefer not to participate or have chant in the mass still appreciate its value or artistic form. Heck, just read some of the comment on YouTube, some people are self-proclaimed atheist, but they say they still love the beauty of it.Then I guess Vatican II didn’t take your point of view into consideration.
