Fr. Zuhlsdorf on Cardinal Muller

[pnewton]

I’m not sure I get what you are saying. The result of a mortal sin is the loss of sanctifying grace in your soul if it was present when you committed the mortal sin. The issue of whether a particular sin is mortal in a particular situation is separate.

No it is not a separate issue. If what you said was so, no Protestant could get into Heaven for the mortal sin of missing Mass, or rejecting the Catholic Church. Yet I have never seen any Catholic claim that all non-Catholics are devoid of sanctifying grace for these mortal sins. Why? Because in their particular case, there are two other elements needed. The particular situation is everything to God, and it is he who judges all.

 

[pnewton]

Did Jesus teach in such a way that the disciples needed an entire team of canon lawyers following them around to provide interpretation as to the basic commandments? I think not.

If taking scandal is a sin, then giving scandal is just as much, if not more, of a sin. The lack of response from PF speaks volumes. As I stated earlier: “Credibility has already been lost.”

I have you never read John 6 and the scandal he gave? Have you never read Jesus explain why he spoken in parables, or the times, just the ones recorded that Jesus had to explain a parable? I actually see Pope Francis as teaching in a way much more similar to Jesus than most popes have. In fact, I think it is precisely because his style is so much like Jesus that he is misunderstood by many who do not look at things the way God does, but as Man does.

 

[exnihilo]

No it is not a separate issue. If what you said was so, no Protestant could get into Heaven for the mortal sin of missing Mass, or rejecting the Catholic Church. Yet I have never seen any Catholic claim that all non-Catholics are devoid of sanctifying grace for these mortal sins. Why? Because in their particular case, there are two other elements needed. The particular situation is everything to God, and it is he who judges all.

I’m sorry I still don’t see how you are linking these. Whether a sin is mortal depends on as you mention several factors. But that doesn’t change the fact a mortal sin (meeting all three factors) does cause the loss of sanctifying grace. That is basic Catholic theology.

If a non Catholic did commit a mortal sin I think they would lose sanctifying grace if they previously had it. That of course means they in fact knew what they were doing to be wrong and that it was grave matter. You are right that God is the judge, but that doesn’t mean we can’t identify particular actions as being objectively wrong. Saying mortal sins cause a loss of sanctifying grace doesn’t mean we are saying all Protestants can’t get to Heaven if they commit a mortal sin. God can distribute graces, including sanctifying grace, as He sees fit.

 

[3_Dog_Night]

I have you never read John 6 and the scandal he gave? Have you never read Jesus explain why he spoken in parables, or the times, just the ones recorded that Jesus had to explain a parable? I actually see Pope Francis as teaching in a way much more similar to Jesus than most popes have. In fact, I think it is precisely because his style is so much like Jesus that he is misunderstood by many who do not look at things the way God does, but as Man does.

It seems to me that Pope Francis is more merciful than Jesus himself. Have you never read Jesus explain about marriage and divorce and adultery in Matthew 19?

v.3 And Pharisees came up to him and tested him by asking, "Is it lawful to divorce one’s wife for any cause? v.4 He answered, “Have you not read that he who made them from the beginning made them male and female, v.5 and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one’? v.6 So they are no longer two but one. What therefore God has joined together, let no man put asunder.” v.7 They said to him, “Why then did Moses command one to give a certificate of divorce, and to put her away?” v.8 He said to them, “From your hardness of heart Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so. v.9 And I say to you: whoever divorces his wife, except for unchastity, and marries another, commits adultery; and he who marries a divorced woman commits adultery.” RSV (Navarre Bible)

As a Catholic I shouldn’t have to choose between Jesus’ words and Pope Francis’ words, but it is becoming increasingly clear that these two men are saying very different things.

Do you (or anyone else for that matter) really want to accuse our Lord of scandal? But if I have to make a choice between Jesus’ words and Pope Francis’ words, I choose Jesus.

I think these verses (Jesus’ words) are crystal clear. A twelve year old could read them and understand what is being commanded; there is no need for canon lawyers.

** By the way, with respect to “hardness of heart”, Moses allowed divorce so that these men would not kill their wives and thus be able to marry again. Divorce was preferable to murder. (Or so says Jeff Cavins in the Ascension Press Bible Study on Matthew.)

 

[Tobin44]

So then, since my wife who was married before as a non-Catholic, divorced then converted to catholicism then had her marriage officially annulled then married myself who has never been married; are you saying that is a mortal sin and we both are damned?

 

[Tobin44]

In addition, we have 2 children. If it is adultery as the bible states, what is to be done to be in a state of grace?

 

[pnewton]

I’m sorry I still don’t see how you are linking these. Whether a sin is mortal depends on as you mention several factors. But that doesn’t change the fact a mortal sin (meeting all three factors) does cause the loss of sanctifying grace. That is basic Catholic theology.

Yes, that is what it means. However, what little we know of the interview with Cardinal Muller, the words quoted used the phrase “mortal sin” as the objective act only. Jimmy Akin said this was a puzzle. The act does not mean one has lost sanctifying grace, not unless two other conditions are met. That is why we take interviews with a grain of salt. The interview might be done dishonestly by the media, phrase and context omitted, or it might even catch the one questioned being inexact. Interviews with journalist are not the mechanism of Church communication.

 

[pnewton]

It seems to me that Pope Francis is more merciful than Jesus himself.

To respond to this, I will turn to St. Faustina.

“All grace flows from mercy, and the last hour abounds with mercy for us. Let no one doubt concerning the goodness of God; even if a person’s sins were as dark as night, God’s mercy is stronger than our misery. One thing alone is necessary; that the sinner set ajar the door of his heart, be it ever so little, to let in a ray of God’s merciful grace, and then God will do the rest.”

“‘Oh how much I am hurt by a soul’s distrust! Such a soul professes that I am Holy and Just, but does not believe that I am Mercy and does not trust in My Goodness. Even the devils believe in My Justice, but do not glorify My Goodness. My Heart rejoices in this title of Mercy.’”

No one is can even understand the depth of Jesus’ mercy, much less be more merciful.

 

[Wandile]

“CANON VII.-If any one saith, that the Church has erred, in that she hath taught, and doth teach, in accordance with the evangelical and apostolical doctrine, that the bond of matrimony cannot be dissolved on account of the adultery of one of the married parties; and that both, or even the innocent one who gave not occasion to the adultery, cannot contract another marriage, during the life-time of the other; and, that he is guilty of adultery, who, having put away the adulteress, shall take another wife, as also she, who, having put away the adulterer, shall take another husband; let him be anathema.”

**- Council of Trent session 24 **

 

[3_Dog_Night]

Thank you for an inspirational passage from St. Faustina. It was beautiful.

I think I will stick with the canons from the Council of Trent and Holy Scripture – these are a much firmer foundation than the writings of a single Pope who contradicts 2,000 years of Catholic Church history and teaching ***or ***the writings of a Saint taken out of context.

Jesus’ mercy cannot be separated from his judgment and his holiness. And forgiveness cannot be separated from faith and repentance. Repentance includes a firm resolution to, as Jesus said to the woman caught in adultery, “go and sin no more.”

 

[Tobin44]

“CANON VII.-If any one saith, that the Church has erred, in that she hath taught, and doth teach, in accordance with the evangelical and apostolical doctrine, that the bond of matrimony cannot be dissolved on account of the adultery of one of the married parties; and that both, or even the innocent one who gave not occasion to the adultery, cannot contract another marriage, during the life-time of the other; and, that he is guilty of adultery, who, having put away the adulteress, shall take another wife, as also she, who, having put away the adulterer, shall take another husband; let him be anathema.”

**- Council of Trent session 24 **

Can you put this in laymen’s terms? Sorry to ask

 

[JimG]

So then, since my wife who was married before as a non-Catholic, divorced then converted to catholicism then had her marriage officially annulled then married myself who has never been married; are you saying that is a mortal sin and we both are damned?

If your wife’s first marriage was declared null from the beginning by a tribunal, that means that a valid marriage bond never existed. So her marriage to you is the first marriage for both of you.

 

[JimG]

In addition, we have 2 children. If it is adultery as the bible states, what is to be done to be in a state of grace?

From what you have said, your marriage is valid, since your wife’s first marriage was declared null. None of this affects the children. You are not living in adultery but in marriage. No worries.

 

[Tobin44]

Awesome. Thank you. I was deeply concerned

 

[Wandile]

Can you put this in laymen’s terms? Sorry to ask

Sure it is simply saying:

*"If anyone says that the Church is wrong when it teaches, in accordance with apostolic doctrine, that :

-The bond of matrimony cannot be dissolved on the basis of adultery and neither of the spouses can marry another person (while both spouses still live), lest they commit adultery

Let that person be anathema"*

Even simpler, it is teaching Matthew 19. Second marriages are adulterous while your spouse still lives.

 

[Wandile]

Why Pope Francis should answer the Dubia is because:

**“Not to oppose error is to approve it; and not to defend truth is to suppress it; and indeed to neglect to confound evil men, when we can do it, is no less a sin than to encourage them.”

• Pope St. Felix III**

 

[Tobin44]

So then my marriage to my wife pits me in the category of adulterer even though the church tribunal said her first marriage was not valid? If so, what does one do to rectify this with God?

 

[Wandile]

So then my marriage to my wife pits me in the category of adulterer even though the church tribunal said her first marriage was not valid? If so, what does one do to rectify this with God?

No if her first marriage was not valid then she was never married to begin with. It was *null *. In the eyes of God and his Holy Catholic Church, you are her first and only husband. Your marriage is fine

 

[3_Dog_Night]

Why Pope Francis should answer the Dubia is because:

**“Not to oppose error is to approve it; and not to defend truth is to suppress it; and indeed to neglect to confound evil men, when we can do it, is no less a sin than to encourage them.”

• Pope St. Felix III**

Thank you. I truly appreciate this quote. I agree 100%. I am relieved to find other Catholics who understand what is happening in the Church and what is at stake here. Blessings.

 

[Tobin44]

No if her first marriage was not valid then she was never married to begin with. It was *null *. In the eyes of God and his Holy Catholic Church, you are her first and only husband. Your marriage is fine

Thank you. I thought I read 2 different meanings in this forum