Framented Christianity

[AJTheMan]

I love that guy!

His name, nonstampcollector, parodies the fact that some people assume that atheism is a religion. He says that atheism is a religion in the sense that not collecting stamps is a hobby. Most of his other videos are not Christian-friendly though.

 

[StrawberryJam]

His name, nonstampcollector, parodies the fact that some people assume that atheism is a religion. He says that atheism is a religion in the sense that not collecting stamps is a hobby. Most of his other videos are not Christian-friendly though.

Some are, some are not so much. I like “Cooking with Yaweh” and the one you posted, and a few others. I sent a few links to a non catholic christian and they admitted they were funny.

But, the new funny to her is this guy Jonathan Acuff who does the whole “side hug” thing.

 

[planten]

Many of the OP’s frustrations and questions have been expressed before on CAF, and will certainly be voiced again and again.

A question to ask is: Does any church truly represent the faith established by Jesus and spread by His first disciples? The answer is not very encouraging.

We have taken a relatively simple and beautiful teaching about how we relate to God and how we can achieve eternal bliss with God and have buried it in layers of non-essential stuff: doctrines and dogmas, fancy vestments and sacred vessels, lavish rituals and rites, petty rules and intricate laws, vanity and exclusiveness. Where is God in all this? Where is the church of Jesus? He really doesn’t appear to be accurately represented by most of the Christian churches that I have seen.

Did Jesus give us volumes of laws and rules to follow in every aspect of life? No, He gave us basic commandments, reiterating and emphasizing the essentials from the Jewish commandments, and told us to love God and one another. Then He expected us to apply those basic commands in each and every aspect of our lives.

What fancy raiment did Jesus wear? What about his Apostles? What clothing did they wear at the Last Supper? Most likely, the simple, everyday clothing that the poor wore. What do you think the cups and dishes at that meal were made of? Gold and silver? Hardly.

What rituals and rites did Jesus perform? Not many; He even passed up the required washing of hands before a meal. No, His focus was on performing acts of love and mercy as evidence of one’s faith, not prescribed rituals.

And try to compile a list of the doctrines that came from the mouth of Jesus…not many that some today consider so critical to being part of the “right faith”. But certainly some that are eternal: Do to others as you would have others do to you; turn the other cheek; forgive those who offend you; Love your neighbor (who is everyone in the world). No complex teaching there. And no real “mysteries”.

Did Jesus command us to follow Him because He was powerful and could crush us on a whim? No, He taught, He preached, He gave us many examples of humility and service. He rejoiced when anyone, rich or poor, favored or disenfranchised, caught on to His meaning and message. And He did not gather in just a few chosen ones, but ALL mankind. All are ONE in God.

One big reason for the Reformation was that the Catholic Church strayed far from these basic tenets; unfortunately most Protestant churches have not done much better. So we have a fragmented Christianity, because of what man has done over the centuries to the meaning and message of Jesus. It is in there somewhere, but very difficult to discern amongst all the clutter.

Is the Kingdom of God to be found in a large brick building with stained glass windows, in rich furnishings, vestments and chalices, or in exacting ritual and incense? Is that where we should look for Jesus? No, He said nothing about “going to church” but rather that we would find Him in the sufferings of “the least of our brothers and sisters”, in the spirit of true community, and in purity of heart. To find Jesus today, just look around. He is within us, and we are within Him. But not too many of us are recognizing His presence there. We say we see, but yet we are blind. And the Christian churches in general are not doing a very good job of lifting the mask of ignorance.

Excellent post of good opinion, good advice, leading to spiritual world instead of more material thinking. Some sentences and paragraphs of the above post are really very good. May Allah bless the poster with more guidance towards more real Jesus like way of life. Amen.

Love of God, prayer and perseverence (steadfastness) are the keys to success. But it is really a very sorry condition to see the Christians (and Muslims) divided into many sects. I heard from some one (From a Protestant) that there were 30,000 diferent sects amongst the Protestants. I could hardly believe such a thing.

I also wish and pray that all christians unite in their faith, in their love of God.

 

[KathleenGee]

There could even be 4,000 more.

So all the more need we to pray for Christian unity, as the Christians are the biggest block in the USA but totally fragmented…divorced from each other…can’t see the Lord among us.

I am going to try to my best now to just pray and work on fasting.

 

[CMatt25]

Not exactly sure of your point here. As I read it Jesus did and does welcome all to the table, but there are some requirements to be in communion. Help me better understand what you are trying to share. Thanks.

It’s probably going to be hard to help you understand if you read it as Jesus welcoming to the table only those who meet requirements. We just read it differently. I know all about discerning and receiving unworthily. But my faith is Christ would not turn away the sinner. I sometimes scratch my head when I think of how we pray at the Mass just before the supper, Lord I am not worthy to receive you but only say the word and I shall be healed. Then someone feels called at that moment to receive yet we keep them from doing so. But that’s me.

 

[StrawberryJam]

It’s probably going to be hard to help you understand if you read it as Jesus welcoming to the table only those who meet requirements. We just read it differently. I know all about discerning and receiving unworthily. But my faith is Christ would not turn away the sinner. I sometimes scratch my head when I think of how we pray at the Mass just before the supper, Lord I am not worthy to receive you but only say the word and I shall be healed. Then someone feels called at that moment to receive yet we keep them from doing so. But that’s me.

this may or may not help you. A believer could help you better I am sure.

Here are my thoughts, feel free to reject them.

Communion. Think about what that word means. In unity.

If there are grave differences in unity, there is no real communion.

I understand your desire that all christians should be in unity. Jesus prayed they would be. It truly is a scandal to non believers that they are not in unity in fullness.

But, it is not called just Communion. It is called Holy Communion, or Eucharist.

so, I am guessing one must be of like mind to join together about something so sacred.

I agree, it is a sad thing.

But, I am sure this is not done to punish anyone but to insure that people who recieve are sure that they can say Amen together in unity and mind and consider this mystery together.

I really don’t know what else to tell you because I wonder about that also. It’s all I can come up with because I am sure it is not a punitive in nature, but more of a declaration of one’s belief in communion.

I hope that made some sense, if not disregard it.

 

[CMatt25]

this may or may not help you. A believer could help you better I am sure.

Here are my thoughts, feel free to reject them.

Communion. Think about what that word means. In unity.

If there are grave differences in unity, there is no real communion.

I understand your desire that all christians should be in unity. Jesus prayed they would be. It truly is a scandal to non believers that they are not in unity in fullness.

But, it is not called just Communion. It is called Holy Communion, or Eucharist.

so, I am guessing one must be of like mind to join together about something so sacred.

I agree, it is a sad thing.

But, I am sure this is not done to punish anyone but to insure that people who recieve are sure that they can say Amen together in unity and mind and consider this mystery together.

I really don’t know what else to tell you because I wonder about that also. It’s all I can come up with because I am sure it is not a punitive in nature, but more of a declaration of one’s belief in communion.

I hope that made some sense, if not disregard it.

Strawberry, thanks. I do understand Catholic teaching on this. I am not disregarding what you said. It makes some sense. I just in the end still have to reject the teaching because I believe Christ would welcome all believers called to His table. Even those with differences. Even sinners. Especially sinners. If Christ expected perfection at His table, He would be eating alone. He welcomed those He knew would deny and betray HIm. He saved the thief. And there were differences from the beginning among the Apostles. On who the greatest was. And Paul corrected Peter. And so forth. So I simply come to this conclusion based on what Christ tells us. It really is for me one of the clearest things in the NT. “I will never turn away anyone who comes to me.” (GNT which bears the Imprimatur of the National Conference of Catholic Bishops) But I understand if someone thinks differently. God bless you on your journey.

 

[MaryandJoseph]

Oh my goodness,such confusion in the world.

I see the point that others have made,there has always been differing opinions and challenges since the beginning of Christianity.

In a quirky sort of way, it was the confusion, Catholic bashing and lack of complete unity among the Protestants that lead me to study further the Catholic Church.

I believe the Catholic Church is the TRUE and ONLY Church started by our Lord and I base that on Scripture and History and of course, the Early Church Fathers writtings.

It would be in my spiritual best interest not to even worry about why there are so many differing protestant beliefs floating around and just stick to learning my faith better.

 

[dsears]

I think the main question though we have to ask is how did it come to be this way? I believe (and I"m probably over looking way too much, but hey I’ve only had CH 100 here) is that it all has to do with personal intrepratation of the scriptures. Once Luther let the cat out of the bag it just ran wild. That is why you have conservative Christians verses Liberal Christians and it seems like sometimes bother Conservative and Liberals versus us.

Now I also think though that we need to ask what can we do to better the cause of unity without compramise. I know of a church back home (actually the Cathedral) who opens up a soup kitchen everyday and then on every Thanksgiving they team up with a United Methodist Church to cook turkey dinners and to get them to people in need. It is afterall a start. But I think we cannot just role over and let the protestants have their way. I think we need to call them to a higher level of truth We need to call them to find our Lord in the Eucharist. That is what I did (of course with the help of CAF) and that is why I pray that others will as well.

I’ve been a confirmed Catholic now for nearly 3 months! Man does time really fly when your having fun!

 

[schaick]

I get soooo frustrated with so many different “types” of Christian faiths.

ONE GOD means He gave us ONE message of salvation

ONE GOD means He has only ONE truth

On my study and journey to the Christain faith (out of the darkness of Atheism), I was confused about which church to worship my new found belief. So many different types of Christain churches with so many differing beliefs.

church “A”…Water baptism not needed for salvation

church “B”…Water baptism needed to wash away original sins

church “C”…No such thing as Original sins

church “D”…Jesus took ALL our sins to the Cross so our salvation is “assured”

I studied and studied all the differing Protestant faiths, and Yes, they have a deep and wonderful love of God and truly wish to follow Him, but after much study on the different denominations, I almost gave up hope that there truly was a God at all. After all, there is only ONE truth, not many!

If not for the Grace of God in leading me to the Catholic Church, I may well have fallen back to my old atheist views (which would have meant Death to my soul)

If Protestants believe the Catholic Church was “derailed” at some point, then why is there not only One protestant church?, Why are there Church of Christ and Church of God and Baptist and Methodist and and and…you get the idea.

Did Jesus teach many different Truths and does God teach that, as an example, that Baptism is right for this group but wrong for the other?

Am I missing something here?

Jesus’ prayer was that all would be One as He and the Father are One. Maybe I just don’t understand the definition of ONE:shrug:

Whether some accept it or not we are ONE.

The Christian Church is One Church with belief in One Truth and One Salvation, with each of it’s members celebrating the the One Faith diffrently.

People are diverse are birthdays all celebrated the same way?

LOL!! I have never taken my children to Chucky Cheese for their birthday-many parents have!
I dread the thought if that was the only way to celebrate their birthdays- I wouldn’t! No actually I would take them out of love, but we **have found much more meaningful **ways to celebrate birthdays.

 

[Jon_Hus]

Oh my goodness,such confusion in the world.

I see the point that others have made,there has always been differing opinions and challenges since the beginning of Christianity.

In a quirky sort of way, it was the confusion, Catholic bashing and lack of complete unity among the Protestants that lead me to study further the Catholic Church.

I believe the Catholic Church is the TRUE and ONLY Church started by our Lord and I base that on Scripture and History and of course, the Early Church Fathers writtings.

It would be in my spiritual best interest not to even worry about why there are so many differing protestant beliefs floating around and just stick to learning my faith better.

So basically friend, your OP is not really asking a question(s) but is rather a statement of your personal faith trying to look like a question(s), no?

Take care,
Jon

 

[MaryandJoseph]

but celebrating a birthday is not a Salvation issue, thumbsup:and smart choice Not to go to Chucky Cheese…)

Jesus Himself said to Baptise in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, so this must be Incredibly important don’t ya think? but yet not all protestant faiths believe in baptism.

Jesus Himself said that unless we Eat of His Body and Drink of His Blood we have no life in us. but yet not all protestant faiths place any great importance on communion.

i guess the point I am trying to make is, that what Jesus commanded us to do, and through His appointed apostles taught us to do as required for salvation is not practiced in many (not all) protestant faiths.

If Jesus said Get Baptised…then ALL faiths should put great importance on this sacrament.

If Jesus said to EAT His Body and DRINK His Blood…Then ALL faiths should do this greatest of sacraments.

Secular, non salvation issues, activities, customs and (t)raditions of course are going to vary among peoples, and Thank God for that, but those teachings that apply to the Salvation of our Souls should Not vary from the original teachings of Jesus.

Understand that I am a zealous convert with much to learn. I spent a great many years in darkness doing things my own way (atheism IS darkness…I should know),so now, as I journey further into my faith, I realize that i do not have all the answers and I lack a great deal of understanding, so be patient with me as I continue to learn:thumbsup:

 

[schaick]

but celebrating a birthday is not a Salvation issue, thumbsup:and smart choice Not to go to Chucky Cheese…)

Jesus Himself said to Baptise in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, so this must be Incredibly important don’t ya think? but yet not all protestant faiths believe in baptism.

Jesus Himself said that unless we Eat of His Body and Drink of His Blood we have no life in us. but yet not all protestant faiths place any great importance on communion.

i guess the point I am trying to make is, that what Jesus commanded us to do, and through His appointed apostles taught us to do as required for salvation is not practiced in many (not all) protestant faiths.

If Jesus said Get Baptised…then ALL faiths should put great importance on this sacrament.

If Jesus said to EAT His Body and DRINK His Blood…Then ALL faiths should do this greatest of sacraments.

Secular, non salvation issues, activities, customs and (t)raditions of course are going to vary among peoples, and Thank God for that, but those teachings that apply to the Salvation of our Souls should Not vary from the original teachings of Jesus.

Understand that I am a zealous convert with much to learn. I spent a great many years in darkness doing things my own way (atheism IS darkness…I should know),so now, as I journey further into my faith, I realize that i do not have all the answers and I lack a great deal of understanding, so be patient with me as I continue to learn:thumbsup:

When I said: *Whether some accept it or not we are ONE.

The Christian Church is One Church with belief in One Truth and One Salvation, with each of it’s members celebrating the the One Faith diffrently*.

I should have added Trinitarian Christians. Are there any Trinitarian Christians that don’t Baptise?

I believe in the Presence in the Eucharist.

I see no problem in someone that believes that because Jesus had not yet died on the cross before the Last Supper that His Body and Blood were not present in the Bread and Wine during that meal and so His words were symbolic.

PLEASE Read Romans 14

 

[AmericanJosiah]

I get soooo frustrated with so many different “types” of Christian faiths.

ONE GOD means He gave us ONE message of salvation

ONE GOD means He has only ONE truth

On my study and journey to the Christain faith (out of the darkness of Atheism), I was confused about which church to worship my new found belief. So many different types of Christain churches with so many differing beliefs.

church “A”…Water baptism not needed for salvation

church “B”…Water baptism needed to wash away original sins

church “C”…No such thing as Original sins

church “D”…Jesus took ALL our sins to the Cross so our salvation is “assured”

I studied and studied all the differing Protestant faiths, and Yes, they have a deep and wonderful love of God and truly wish to follow Him, but after much study on the different denominations, I almost gave up hope that there truly was a God at all. After all, there is only ONE truth, not many!

If not for the Grace of God in leading me to the Catholic Church, I may well have fallen back to my old atheist views (which would have meant Death to my soul)

If Protestants believe the Catholic Church was “derailed” at some point, then why is there not only One protestant church?, Why are there Church of Christ and Church of God and Baptist and Methodist and and and…you get the idea.

Did Jesus teach many different Truths and does God teach that, as an example, that Baptism is right for this group but wrong for the other?

Am I missing something here?

Jesus’ prayer was that all would be One as He and the Father are One. Maybe I just don’t understand the definition of ONE:shrug:

We all know that The Catholic Church, officially and currently, is in full agreement with The Catholic Church in all matters that The Catholic Church currently views as necessary for agreement. It has a unity of ONE: self alone with self alone. ** SO WHAT?**

AT LEAST as much can be said of every other denomination, too. The Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod is offically and currently in agreement with The Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod in all matters that The Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod currently views as necessary to agree upon. It has a unity of one, too. Self with self (actually, it is in full doctrinal unity with hundreds of OTHER denominations, too - albeit all of the Lutheran tradition). Heck, I’m in official and current agreement with everything that I currently feel good to agree upon, I have a unity of one: self with self (AT LEAST), **SO WHAT? ** The Trabernacle of The Apostle Bob (yes, it exists) is officially and currently in full doctrinal agreement with The Tabernacle of The Apostle Bob in all matters that The Tabernacle of The Apostle Bob currently regards as necessarily for agreement. SO WHAT?

The Catholic Church is NO BETTER (and often worse) in this regard than other denominations. It has a unity of exactly ONE; Self alone with self alone. And even that, only currently and only officially. It agrees with ONE. AT LEAST that can be said for every other teacher, denomination, institution, organization. SO WHAT? WHY is that signfiicant for The Catholic Church?



.

 

[CMatt25]

We all know that The Catholic Church, officially and currently, is in full agreement with The Catholic Church in all matters that The Catholic Church currently views as necessary for agreement. It has a unity of ONE: self alone with self alone. ** SO WHAT?**

AT LEAST as much can be said of every other denomination, too. The Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod is offically and currently in agreement with The Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod in all matters that The Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod currently views as necessary to agree upon. It has a unity of one, too. Self with self (actually, it is in full doctrinal unity with hundreds of OTHER denominations, too - albeit all of the Lutheran tradition). Heck, I’m in official and current agreement with everything that I currently feel good to agree upon, I have a unity of one: self with self (AT LEAST), **SO WHAT? ** The Trabernacle of The Apostle Bob (yes, it exists) is officially and currently in full doctrinal agreement with The Tabernacle of The Apostle Bob in all matters that The Tabernacle of The Apostle Bob currently regards as necessarily for agreement. SO WHAT?

The Catholic Church is NO BETTER (and often worse) in this regard than other denominations. It has a unity of exactly ONE; Self alone with self alone. And even that, only currently and only officially. It agrees with ONE. AT LEAST that can be said for every other teacher, denomination, institution, organization. SO WHAT? WHY is that signfiicant for The Catholic Church?



.

You forgot the Orthodox.

 

[CMatt25]

I believe in the Presence in the Eucharist.

I see no problem in someone that believes that because Jesus had not yet died on the cross before the Last Supper that His Body and Blood were not present in the Bread and Wine during that meal and so His words were symbolic.

PLEASE Read Romans 14

:clapping: :tiphat: :dancing: :extrahappy:

 

[CMatt25]

I think the main question though we have to ask is how did it come to be this way? I believe (and I"m probably over looking way too much, but hey I’ve only had CH 100 here) is that it all has to do with personal intrepratation of the scriptures. Once Luther let the cat out of the bag it just ran wild.

Actually wasn’t it before Luther? Didn’t the various sees have friction? East and west excommunicated each other?

 

[gtrenewed]

If anyone is still reading this thread, a few points to consider:

1. by the time Jesus came what had started as God’s way had been layered on by the rules of man - rules of man make the word of God of no effect according to scripture;
2. Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life - don’t equate a church today to the only following of Jesus;
3. it is wonderful you have had a spiritual enlightment, hopefully the first of many but don’t make your enlightment universal and mandatory as the only true way, for Jesus said to the apostles I have other flocks you do not know about;
4. there are many ways to follow Jesus, that is why He is a personal God, but only one way to the Father and that is through Jesus;
5. the Roman Catholic church is also divided on following Jesus as evidenced by the numerous societies. When greater fulfillment is needed in following Jesus these men and women looked beyond the regular traditions and rituals to find a deeper way of worship. Granted they stayed within the legal framework of the church but I use this to show there can be men and women who need to follow in their own way. Because of the systemic corruption of church authority some of these men and women felt a need to completely break authority ties in order to follow Jesus. And so today we continue to see the freedom to break ties in order to follow Jesus.

And so, a Christian is one who seeks to follow Jesus as a disciple, outwardly identifiable as loving God with devotion and loving fellow man with practical goodness.
Faith is a journey with help needed along the way, if you have found help in the RC church there are many fine examples to follow but don’t cut out the rest who have made and are making the journey as a disciple of Jesus outside of the RC.

 

[ML561]

I too have been frustrated and confused by conflicting messages sent by some Protestant churches, all of whom claim to have the truth. I converted to Catholicism from the Methodist Church after years of study and soul-searching. However, sadly, I later married a man who was not only not Catholic, but an anti-Catholic Protestant who drifted from church to church as (so he claimed) the Holy Spirit told him. As his wife, he said I should obey him as the spiritual head of the household and so he forbade me to go to Mass and insisted that I accompany him to whatever church he felt led to on any given Sunday. In the three years we were married he belonged to at least seven different Protestant churches. (The marriage took place because we were going to have a baby. If that had not been the case I am certain that we would not have been married, as religious differences were the cause of our divorce. BTW, the marriage was in a court house. I am wondering if I need to seek an annulment under these circumstances.) Anyway, back to the topic, the constant wandering from church to church, and my husband’s insistence that the Holy Spirit was guiding him, nearly led me to forsake the Catholic Church. Once, when I was at home with our baby, a couple from the Legion of Mary stopped by. I was glad to have any visitors as I was at that time always at home with no means of transportation. I welcomed this lovely couple and accepted their literature as well as a small rosary which I put on my son’s crib. I invited them to come back at any time. When my husband came back from work and saw the rosary he was very angry. One would have thought I had placed a statue of the Devil by the crib!! He removed it and said he would not have the child confused. When the people from the Legion of Mary returned a week later my husband was there and ordered them off the premises. Then later he brought home a box of Jack Chick tracts which he said he was going to distribute to the people at his workplace. That was the last straw for me. I had tried sincerely to understand his beliefs and had gone to church with him, but this hate literature was too much.

After our divorce, I was still so confused and felt brainwashed, but I knew I needed to go back to the Catholic Church. Fortunately, in my former parish there was a program called
“The Journey Home” for Catholics who had been away from the church. I signed up right away and rejoined my parish. The deacon and his wife who led the program were just wonderful. We had several meetings and the doubts that had been placed in my mind by my husband about the Church were dispelled in a kind and loving manner. I cannot thank them enough. Now I am a very active member in my parish and have been an RCIA sponsor. My son lives with relatives–due to circumstances which are personal–and my former husband and I do not have contact with each other now. (The last time I spoke to him he had decided that he had no need for any church as the Lord Himself will guide him. Well, OK. I will keep him in my prayers, what else can one do? )

I thank the Lord every day for leading me to the Catholic faith. Mary and Joseph, welcome home. This is a good site to visit if you are continuing to have questions or want to know more about the faith. My prayers are with you.

 

[AmericanJosiah]

I too have been frustrated and confused by conflicting messages sent by some Protestant churches, all of whom claim to have the truth.

We all know that The Catholic Church, officially and currently, is in full agreement with The Catholic Church in all matters that The Catholic Church currently views as necessary for agreement. It has a unity of ONE: self alone with self alone. SO WHAT?

AT LEAST as much can be said of every other denomination, too. The Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod is offically and currently in agreement with The Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod in all matters that The Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod currently views as necessary to agree upon. It has a unity of one, too. Self with self (actually, it is in full doctrinal unity with hundreds of OTHER denominations, too - albeit all of the Lutheran tradition). Heck, I’m in official and current agreement with everything that I currently feel good to agree upon, I have a unity of one: self with self (AT LEAST), SO WHAT? The Trabernacle of The Apostle Bob (yes, it exists) is officially and currently in full doctrinal agreement with The Tabernacle of The Apostle Bob in all matters that The Tabernacle of The Apostle Bob currently regards as necessarily for agreement. SO WHAT?

The Catholic Church is NO BETTER (and often worse) in this regard than other denominations. It has a unity of exactly ONE; Self alone with self alone. And even that, only currently and only officially. It agrees with ONE. AT LEAST that can be said for every other teacher, denomination, institution, organization. SO WHAT? WHY is that signfiicant for The Catholic Church?

The Catholic Church claims to have the truth - in fact, it’s the only denomination on the planet that insists that it is INCAPABLE of error and thus exempts itself from accountability for what it teaches and instead demands that all just accept whatever it says “with docility.” But it agrees with NO OTHER. How is that not “fragmented?” How is self alone being in unity and agreement with self alone an indication of Christianity having a united message? It is AT LEAST as “bad” as any other denomination on the planet.

.