With all the talk of grace, receiving grace, achieving the state of grace, etc. in your past posts, why does it seem so difficult for you to accept the actual effect of this grace to really lead an individual to becoming more virtuous, holy, righteous, and blameless before the Lord? How do you know it may not be just such a person who has already removed the log from their own eye so as better to see to remove the speck from yours?
It is not difficult at all. I completely accept that the point is to become virtuous, holy, righteous, and blameless. Pope Francis is not instructing anyone not to strive for these things. Part of being all of these things is not to be judgemental, because you can keep every single commandment there is, receive the Eucharist “worthily” every day of your life, and render it all for naught by putting yourself in the place of God when it comes to judgement. Why is it so hard for you to understand this? Or at the very least, why is it so hard for you to understand that I am not even for a moment suggesting that anyone give up the fight to become holy and blameless?
There is conflict because a plethora of teaching from the Church and the Bible seem to be missing from the Pope’s words, and that is why I feel (when this happens) that we must look beyond the Pope and try to discern what the Holy Spirit is saying. I believe two things are being propagated by the Holy Spirit:
Please cite (give me a specific quote from a specific post) where I made the claim that you advocate “give[ing] up the fight to become holy and blameless.” You’re setting up a straw man.
So again, you are confusing the issue here. Judging and discerning rightly does not place oneself in the place of God, else the scriptures would not have admonished believers to do so. And you continue to avoid answering the question. Did Paul put himself in the place of God when he judged a man in the church at Corinth who was sleeping with his step-mother?
It was way back in post 154, where you claimed it was difficult for me to accept that grace is meant to have the effect of making us holy and blameless.
So again, you’re confused. This thread is about Pope Francis instructing us not to be judgemental, and I’m responding to those who don’t quite grasp that he’s not referring to discerning or judging rightly. No, Paul did not put himself in the place of God there. Pope Francis issued no decree about Paul, nor did he advocate sleeping with one’s stepmother. Nor did I. What was it you were just saying about a strawman?
I feel you are being unkind with your last statement. One can seek to understand what the Pope is saying and yet still accept what he is saying. As I have said before, I think there are times when this Pope does speak words that are difficult to understand, yet if we consider what the Holy Spirit is saying through the Pope, many times the understanding comes to light.
It wasn’t my intention to be unkind to anyone but myself. The whole reason I’ve stuck in this thread so long is because I arrogantly thought that I could bring about some sort of understanding, but it’s up to the Holy Spirit to do that.
I think what you are missing is that for that entire 2,000 years the idea of admonishing the sinner has also existed. That is why people must go farther when trying to understand.
True. If Pope Francis had said that whoever admonishes a sinner is corrupt and a hypocrite, I see how that would be problematic. Just as it would be problematic if he were to condone gay marriage. I can see why a non-believer would want to avoid going farther to try to understand his infamous “Who am I to judge?” quote, but I fail to understand why any believer would persist in misunderstanding the quote in the thread title.
Yeah. Apparently 1neophyte thinks we can’t admonish others without judging them.
And maybe Elijah was wrong for scorning the prophets of Baal.Yeah, apparently. You found me out.Yeah. Apparently 1neophyte thinks we can’t admonish others without judging them.
Because in order to admonish one has to first judge the sin.
Judging is really misunderstood today. We cannot judge a heart or soul–that belongs to God alone. We can and should judge actions, especially our own. If we can literally never judge, then how can we ever know what sins we (or others) commit?Yeah. Apparently 1neophyte thinks we can’t admonish others without judging them.
So I see you read today’s Mass readings…Yeah. Apparently 1neophyte thinks we can’t admonish others without judging them.
I guess we are talking past each other because I don’t believe stating that difficulty accepting the actual effect of grace to really lead an individual to become more virtuous, holy, and righteous before the Lord is the same thing as advocating giving up fighting to become holy and righteous. The reason for my original assertion is you have never acknowledged that it is even possible that a believer can ever judge and discern rightly. It seems as though any time and every time a Christian judges, it necessarily has to be of the negative sort.
I do not think I would use this parallel with the idea of admonishing the sinner. He was crass and rude, and in the end, slew them them all. Surely you do not think our judgement should extend to gutter trash talk and mass “slewing”.Yeah. Apparently 1neophyte thinks we can’t admonish others without judging them.
Unless, as has been noted, you are an Eighth Century BC prophet and the sin is worshiping the demon Baal.