Francis: ‘Whoever judges and scorns others is corrupt and a hypocrite’

[1neophyte]

The father in the prodigal son parable allowed the selfish son to go; he did not chase after him and give him an award his behavior. It wasn’t until the son returned, begging for mercy, that the father showered his mercy upon him. We are intentionally not told what came of the other son, but what we are told is that when someone is asking for mercy and forgiveness, we should grant them. There is a vast gulf of difference between this sort of mercy and rewarding those in persistent opposition to what the Church teaches. This is the concern being shown.

As well, to be a counter-cultural refuge entails standing up to said culture. Part of the culture of the time was for the money changers to ply their trade in the temple. Christ certainly stood up to them. He also certainly stood up to the men who brought him the woman to be stoned for adultery. The Kingdom is not divided against itself by admonishing those who stand against it.

It is worth adding that you, in these posts, are judging and scornful. To address as whiners those who pine for the truth is evidence of this.

You know, it’s funny…it feels like you’re trying to present a counter-argument to what I said, but all you’re doing is making my point for me. The father allowed the selfish son to go, he did not chase him. My contention is that the Church should do exactly the same thing. However, it seems that many would rather have the Church’s business be about regulating (for lack of a better term) pop culture or the zeitgeist. Look at the internal debates we have. When people make a mess of their lives with regard to marriage, and they come to the Church for mercy, there are many who would say these people should be denied the sacraments because they have violated the institution of marriage. I seem to remember a certain Someone who scornfully judged those who tied up heavy burdens and didn’t lift a finger to help those carrying those burdens. Yet there was no scorn towards those individuals caught in sin…just a captivating, inexplicable mercy that inspired conversion. The Church should be dripping with such mercy, yet there is a relentless effort to pedantically defend doctrine, in the Church’s Jubilee Year of Mercy, and denounce the POPE in the process. It’s absolutely baffling and indefensible.

 

[BChartowski]

You know, it’s funny…it feels like you’re trying to present a counter-argument to what I said, but all you’re doing is making my point for me. The father allowed the selfish son to go, he did not chase him. My contention is that the Church should do exactly the same thing. However, it seems that many would rather have the Church’s business be about regulating (for lack of a better term) pop culture or the zeitgeist. Look at the internal debates we have. When people make a mess of their lives with regard to marriage, and they come to the Church for mercy, there are many who would say these people should be denied the sacraments because they have violated the institution of marriage. I seem to remember a certain Someone who scornfully judged those who tied up heavy burdens and didn’t lift a finger to help those carrying those burdens. Yet there was no scorn towards those individuals caught in sin…just a captivating, inexplicable mercy that inspired conversion. The Church should be dripping with such mercy, yet there is a relentless effort to pedantically defend doctrine, in the Church’s Jubilee Year of Mercy, and denounce the POPE in the process. It’s absolutely baffling and indefensible.

The Church spends considerable time rectifying marriage issues. Attempting to break a marriage is not the same as someone who has slipped up outside of marriage. Marriage is a sacrament, not an institution. In both Matthew and Mark Jesus explains very clearly with regard to marriage: "So they are no longer two but one. What therefore God has joined together, let not man put asunder.” The Church cannot simply proclaim that a person in an invalid remarriage is suddenly not in a state of mortal sin. This is why the Church is willing to determine if there is a case of nullity, so that the person can be in full communion without jeopardizing their soul by partaking of the Eucharist while in a state of mortal sin. We know that to partake in the Eucharist in this way is to eat and drink judgment. What you’re suggesting should be viewed in similar light to God banishing Adam and Eve from Eden, thereby cutting off their access to the tree of life. The tree of life would allow you to live forever, which some would wrongly consider merciful, but without seeing the entirety of the situation and the truth they would be wrong. To partake in its fruits while in a state of mortal sin would ensure that they would live forever in a state of sin, eternally separated from God.

God Himself created marriage; we did not. God Himself also tells us that it is not something that we can take apart. It is not a burden that we have “tied up” and with which we “will not lift a finger to help.” Marriage is what God has made it, and if it is found that there was no marriage to begin with, then the Church recognizes such. To allow someone to persist in a state of sin is not merciful; it is wicked.

Again, you are heaping scorn upon those who defend what the Church teaches by calling those people pedantic.

 

[irenaeus1]

Who is talking about rewarding those in opposition to what the Church teaches? Rewarding them how?

Did you miss one of the points in Post #53?

 

[1neophyte]

The Church spends considerable time rectifying marriage issues. Attempting to break a marriage is not the same as someone who has slipped up outside of marriage. Marriage is a sacrament, not an institution. In both Matthew and Mark Jesus explains very clearly with regard to marriage: "So they are no longer two but one. What therefore God has joined together, let not man put asunder.” The Church cannot simply proclaim that a person in an invalid remarriage is suddenly not in a state of mortal sin. This is why the Church is willing to determine if there is a case of nullity, so that the person can be in full communion without jeopardizing their soul by partaking of the Eucharist while in a state of mortal sin. We know that to partake in the Eucharist in this way is to eat and drink judgment. What you’re suggesting should be viewed in similar light to God banishing Adam and Eve from Eden, thereby cutting off their access to the tree of life. The tree of life would allow you to live forever, which some would wrongly consider merciful, but without seeing the entirety of the situation and the truth they would be wrong. To partake in its fruits while in a state of mortal sin would ensure that they would live forever in a state of sin, eternally separated from God.

God Himself created marriage; we did not. God Himself also tells us that it is not something that we can take apart. It is not a burden that we have “tied up” and with which we “will not lift a finger to help.” Marriage is what God has made it, and if it is found that there was no marriage to begin with, then the Church recognizes such. To allow someone to persist in a state of sin is not merciful; it is wicked.

Again, you are heaping scorn upon those who defend what the Church teaches by calling those people pedantic.

No, I’m heaping scorn upon those who defend only part of what the Church teaches, and who twist the rest. Everything you’re saying about marriage is correct, but the sacraments are made for us, not the other way around. Jesus gave the Church the power to loosen or hold bound things on earth and promised that they would also be loosed or held bound in Heaven. Does that mean that marriages should be imprudently nullified willy nilly? Of course not. But if someone is in the state of mortal sin, it’s completely self-defeating to deny someone the sacraments to avoid jeopardizing their soul, when their soul is already in jeopardy. Yes, it is wicked to allow someone to persist in a state of sin, which is exactly why they desperately need the sacraments. The Eucharist is not a prize for self-achieving the state of grace…it is the means for achieving the state of grace.

But this has gotten far away from the point. My main assertion is that it is incredibly harmful to be critical of Pope Francis every time he says anything that directly echoes what Jesus has said. Just as it is an absurd misunderstanding when “the world” concludes that he condones same sex marriage when they hear the quote “Who am I to judge?”, it is equally absurd to conclude that he is targeting faithful Catholics when he denounces judgementalism. No one is encouraging you to sin. No one is condoning sin. He is simply trying to rouse the Church into being the means of mercy that Jesus intended it to be. If you want to consider yourself a faithful Catholic, you have to accept that the Holy Spirit works through the elected pope, even when it occurs in ways that are outside of your limited understanding and experience. Doubting and questioning the authority of the Church is the same whether you’re supporting abortion or unlawful marriage, or if you’re denouncing the Church’s saving merciful work towards sinners. Anyone who wants to oppose the pope on either side of the spectrum should just be like Luther and go start a new church.

 

[1neophyte]

Did you miss one of the points in Post #53?

You mean the pope associating with Joe Biden? So, you would criticize Pope Francis for the same reason Jesus was criticized when He associated with sinners and tax collectors certain “sorts” of women? Good luck with that.

 

[xNoOnex]

It’s strange, to see some political conservative people’s responses to some of the things that Pope Francis said. Maybe its because American Catholics have long allied themselves, due to the abortion issue, with the Right and with them, the hellfire and brimstone mindset of fundamentalist Protestantism and in rubbed off.

Pope Francis is not saying anything that previous popes haven’t said about economy and the poor. He’s not saying anything previous popes haven’t said on immigration and refugees. He’s not saying anything that previous popes haven’t said about the environment. He might be saying it louder, and his words might be harsher… But maybe he’s tired of so many Catholics not listening to what the Church says on those issues?

 

[1neophyte]

It’s strange, to see some political conservative people’s responses to some of the things that Pope Francis said. Maybe its because American Catholics have long allied themselves, due to the abortion issue, with the Right and with them, the hellfire and brimstone mindset of fundamentalist Protestantism and in rubbed off.

Pope Francis is not saying anything that previous popes haven’t said about economy and the poor. He’s not saying anything previous popes haven’t said on immigration and refugees. He’s not saying anything that previous popes haven’t said about the environment. He might be saying it louder, and his words might be harsher… But maybe he’s tired of so many Catholics not listening to what the Church says on those issues?

I love it when someone says exactly what I’m thinking in a much more polite way than I am able to.

 

[Randolph]

You mean the pope associating with Joe Biden? So, you would criticize Pope Francis for the same reason Jesus was criticized when He associated with sinners and tax collectors certain “sorts” of women? Good luck with that.

Not the same…Jesus spent time with the sinners, prostitutes and tax collectors to shepherd them and eventually told them to “sin no more”. Whereas, Sanders and Biden are public officials who used the platform at the Vatican to booster their political ideologies–many of which are contrary to the teachings of the Church. Furthermore, Hayek, Clooney and Gere denounced Church, and support abortion (planned parenthood) and gay marriage, and gender ideology. Pope Francis gave them awards. Did Jesus give awards to sinners, prostitutes and tax collectors?

 

[ComplineSanFran]

Whereas, Sanders and Biden are public officials who used the platform at the Vatican to booster their political ideologies–many of which are contrary to the teachings of the Church. Furthermore, Hayek, Clooney and Gere denounced Church, and support abortion (planned parenthood) and gay marriage, and gender ideology. Pope Francis gave them awards. Did Jesus give awards to sinners, prostitutes and tax collectors?

So what do you think the lesson learned is in this instance? What is the Pope teaching by his example?

 

[1neophyte]

Did Jesus give awards to sinners, prostitutes and tax collectors?

He did, and does. Membership in the Kingdom of Heaven is an “award” of sorts, and prostitutes and tax collectors enter the Kingdom before the righteous. It may not be “fair” by human standards, but it’s just the way it is. If you don’t like it, take it up with Jesus, not me.

By the way, I understand the point you were trying to make, but you have to be careful how you word things. If such public supporters of sin are ever to come to true repentance, they must have the same encounter with Jesus that the tax collectors and prostitutes in the gospels had. That is what the Church is for. If the Church’s position is “we’ll sit here and hold mercy ransom until you’re as righteous as us,” then Jesus’ death and resurrection were for nothing.

 

[irenaeus1]

You mean the pope associating with Joe Biden? So, you would criticize Pope Francis for the same reason Jesus was criticized when He associated with sinners and tax collectors certain “sorts” of women? Good luck with that.

Not merely association, but awards or accolades and no “gentle” admonition to repentance.

 

[irenaeus1]

The Eucharist is not a prize for self-achieving the state of grace…it is the means for achieving the state of grace.

The Eucharist is not a means for achieving the state of grace… that is what the sacrament of penance is for.

 

[Randolph]

Not the same…Jesus spent time with the sinners, prostitutes and tax collectors to shepherd them and eventually told them to “sin no more”. Whereas, Sanders and Biden are public officials who used the platform at the Vatican to booster their political ideologies–many of which are contrary to the teachings of the Church. Furthermore, Hayek, Clooney and Gere denounced Church, and support abortion (planned parenthood) and gay marriage, and gender ideology. Pope Francis gave them awards. Did Jesus give awards to sinners, prostitutes and tax collectors?

So what do you think the lesson learned is in this instance? What is the Pope teaching by his example?

I want to first preface my response by stating that I am full support of Pope Francis as my Holy Father, and I am not against him. I will obey the Holy Father.

As commanded by Christ, Pope Francis has emphasized reaching out to the lost sheep, the poor, the disillusioned, and really to everyone. It is a great thing.

It is a good thing to reach out, dialogue and eventually evangelize. But it is quite another to allow political figures (Sanders and Biden) to use the Vatican potentially as political platform during an election year. Has the same courtesy extended to political opponents in the opposing party? It’s been a long standing practice of the church to distance itself from political activities.

As for giving out awards to people who denounced the Church, isn’t the Church sending the wrong message to the faithful and the world? Instead the message is reaching out to people and evangelizing to them, but the message can be misconstrued as “even Catholic authority recognizes the flaws in its teachings, that is why they gave out awards to those who denounced them and opposed their teaching.” Each year, there are millions abortions done in the US alone. Planned Parenthood is a major abortion provider. Clooney supports and campaigns for them. What message is then sent to Pro-Life people who have fought so hard to save babies from death?

 

[LaetenturCaeli]

As for giving out awards to people who denounced the Church, isn’t the Church sending the wrong message to the faithful and the world?

Whatever message the Holy Father sends out, frankly, it’s not even half as bad as those Catholics who feel terribly free to publicly call him out on things they disagree with.

We Catholics need to better learn how to say certain things behind closed doors in front of those who are actually able to do something, rather than airing every thought like so much dirty laundry.

Forgive me, but prefacing dirty laundry with commendable and wonderful statements of obedience does not suddenly make the dirty laundry clean.

 

[irenaeus1]

He did, and does. Membership in the Kingdom of Heaven is an “award” of sorts, and prostitutes and tax collectors enter the Kingdom before the righteous.

You misunderstood the question… unless, of course, you believe that Pope Francis is awarding membership in the Kingdom to unrepentant public sinners.

 

[irenaeus1]

As for giving out awards to people who denounced the Church, isn’t the Church sending the wrong message to the faithful and the world?
LaetenturCaeli;13945238:

Whatever message the Holy Father sends out, frankly, it’s not even half as bad as those Catholics who feel terribly free to publicly call him out on things they disagree with

.

Really? My reach is infinitesimal compared to the Holy Father’s, so no, I don’t agree with this statement at all.

 

[1neophyte]

I want to first preface my response by stating that I am full support of Pope Francis as my Holy Father, and I am not against him. I will obey the Holy Father.

As commanded by Christ, Pope Francis has emphasized reaching out to the lost sheep, the poor, the disillusioned, and really to everyone. It is a great thing.

It is a good thing to reach out, dialogue and eventually evangelize. But it is quite another to allow political figures (Sanders and Biden) to use the Vatican potentially as political platform during an election year. Has the same courtesy extended to political opponents in the opposing party? It’s been a long standing practice of the church to distance itself from political activities.

As for giving out awards to people who denounced the Church, isn’t the Church sending the wrong message to the faithful and the world? Instead the message is reaching out to people and evangelizing to them, but the message can be misconstrued as “even Catholic authority recognizes the flaws in its teachings, that is why they gave out awards to those who denounced them and opposed their teaching.” Each year, there are millions abortions done in the US alone. Planned Parenthood is a major abortion provider. Clooney supports and campaigns for them. What message is then sent to Pro-Life people who have fought so hard to save babies from death?

I first would like to say that I have the utmost respect for you, and agree with everything you say.

Having said that, you’re sending the completely wrong message with this post, and creating scandal by questioning Church authority.

 

[Randolph]

b

I first would like to say that I have the utmost respect for you, and agree with everything you say.

Having said that, you’re sending the completely wrong message with this post, and creating scandal by questioning Church authority.

Thank you for your advice. I will think and reflect on it, and I will appropriately incorporate it in my future posts. I love and respect the Catholic Church, and would never defame it or question its authority as it came directly from Christ. If I inadvertently caused a scandal by questioning the authority of the Church, I ask for forgiveness. It was never my intention.

Pope Francis wants, through mercy, forgiveness and love, to reach out to everyone–especially those who are lost, disenfranchised, or disillusioned. That’s great and wonderful. He is the Holy Father, and is worthy of our support and obedience. I often pray for Pope Francis as I had prayed for Pope Benedict XVI and Pope John Paul II.

Mother Theresa of Calcutta (soon to be canonized) once said abortion is the greatest evil of our time. She also said: “It is a true travesty for a mother to kill her own child so that she can live as she wishes.” Millions of abortions are done every year in the US alone. Planned Parenthood is a major abortion provider. Most of its business comes from performing abortions. Sanders, Biden and Clooney have supported and campaigned for abortions and Planned Parenthood. As a matter of public acts and records, Biden and Sanders were invited to the Vatican during an election year, while Clooney was given an award. I don’t understand it, and I am unable to comprehend it. It is entirely possible that my lack of understanding and comprehension is immature and misguided. In the meantime, I ache for Pro-life people who work so hard to save the babies.

 

[PatrickC]

I first would like to say that I have the utmost respect for you, and agree with everything you say.

Having said that, you’re sending the completely wrong message with this post, and creating scandal by questioning Church authority.

Who on earth honestly feels ‘scandalized’ by anything anymore, let alone a lone poster on an online forum? You’re using the concept of ‘creating scandal’ to shut down someone disagreeing with you, and I find that dishonest at best. You’ll get over it.

 

[PatrickC]

It’s strange, to see some political conservative people’s responses to some of the things that Pope Francis said. Maybe its because American Catholics have long allied themselves, due to the abortion issue, with the Right and with them, the hellfire and brimstone mindset of fundamentalist Protestantism and in rubbed off.

Pope Francis is not saying anything that previous popes haven’t said about economy and the poor. He’s not saying anything previous popes haven’t said on immigration and refugees. He’s not saying anything that previous popes haven’t said about the environment. He might be saying it louder, and his words might be harsher… But maybe he’s tired of so many Catholics not listening to what the Church says on those issues,

Maybe it’s a Northeast thing, but while I find positions on both the Democrat and Republican side equally repulsive, but I find the inability of American Catholics to consider anything other than abortion and homosexual issues of any real worth. I’m thoroughly convinced that half of this forum would vote for an absolute dictator so long as he was against abortion.