Francis: ‘Whoever judges and scorns others is corrupt and a hypocrite’

[PatrickC]

Really? My reach is infinitesimal compared to the Holy Father’s, so no, I don’t agree with this statement at all.

Let’s thank God’s infinite wisdom for that.

 

[TCEL]

Pope Francis invited frank dialogue.

I agree that it may be more prudent to be circumspect in our criticisms, and not air our dirty laundry. On the other hand, a part of me thinks Pope Francis prefers respectful, frank dialogue, instead of sweeping it under the rug, or whispering behind closed doors. Things can fester that way. Personally, I’ve encountered a spectrum of reactions to Pope Francis. I believe it’s healthier to have honest dialogue.

 

[PatrickC]

Here are some verses from the New Testament that provide some (name removed by moderator)ut about how we are to deal with the problem of flagrant sinners and obstinate dissenters. Don’t shoot the messenger.

Jesus - MT 10:14-15 “Whoever will not receive you or listen to your words—go outside that house or town and shake the dust from your feet. Amen, I say to you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town.”

Jesus - MT 18:15-17 “If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every word may be confirmed by the evidence of two or three witnesses. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.

Jesus - LK 10:10-12 “Whatever town you enter and they do not receive you, go out into the streets and say, ‘The dust of your town that clings to our feet, even that we shake off against you.’ Yet know this: the kingdom of God is at hand. I tell you, it will be more tolerable for Sodom on that day than for that town.”

St. Paul - ROM 16:17-18 I appeal to you, brethren, to take note of those who create dissensions and difficulties, in opposition to the doctrine which you have been taught; avoid them. For such persons do not serve our Lord Christ, but their own appetites, and by fair and flattering words they deceive the hearts of the simple-minded.

St. Paul - 1 COR 5:1-2 It is actually reported that there is immorality among you, and of a kind that is not found even among pagans; for a man is living with his father’s wife. And you are arrogant! Ought you not rather to mourn? Let him who has done this be removed from among you.

St. Paul - 1 COR 5 11-13 But I now write to you not to associate with anyone named a brother, if he is immoral, greedy, an idolater, a slanderer, a drunkard, or a robber, not even to eat with such a person. For why should I be judging outsiders? Is it not your business to judge those within? God will judge those outside. “Purge the evil person from your midst.”

St. Paul - 2 COR 6:14-16 Do not be mismated with unbelievers. For what partnership have righteousness and iniquity? Or what fellowship has light with darkness? What accord has Christ with Be′lial? Or what has a believer in common with an unbeliever? What agreement has the temple of God with idols?

St. Paul - EPH 5:6-8 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for it is because of these things that the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. Therefore do not associate with them, for once you were darkness, but now you are light in the Lord.

St. Paul - 2 THES 3:14 If anyone does not obey our word as expressed in this letter, take note of this person not to associate with him, that he may be put to shame.

St. Paul - 2 TIM 3:1-5 But understand this: there will be terrifying times in the last days. People will be self-centered and lovers of money, proud, haughty, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, irreligious, callous, implacable, slanderous, licentious, brutal, hating what is good, traitors, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, as they make a pretense of religion but deny its power. Reject them.

St. Paul - TITUS 3: 10-11 After a first and second warning, break off contact with a heretic, realizing that such a person is perverted and sinful and stands self-condemned.

St. John - 2 JN 9-11 Anyone who is so “progressive” as not to remain in the teaching of the Christ does not have God; whoever remains in the teaching has the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him in your house or even greet him; for whoever greets him shares in his evil works.

Not to mention, the entirety of the Epistle of St. Jude and the 2nd Epistle of St. Peter.

You know, there was a time and a place where all those things might have had a real impact. Let me ask you this: how do people usually respond to your own ‘admonishments’? Do they generally see the error of their ways and repent, joining you in your way of thinking, or do they write you off, resent your (name removed by moderator)ut, and even double down their resolve? I can tell you personally, that shaming people has led to far more of the later than the former in my own experience. Christ and Paul are ultimately talking about those who are at least have an interest in being faithful, put stock in the authority of the heirarchy, or who otherwise even care what you think. Those are the ones who are easiest to reach. People increasingly no longer respond to the threat of punishment, or condemnation (especially from religious establishment). You can’t shame or freighten someone to repentance who barely even believes the same things as you. Those can only be reached by setting an example, and by mercy. I tend to agree with St Francis, that the example is infinitely more powerful than simple words, especially judgemental words.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

Pope Francis is, without question, God’s gift to the Church and to the world for this moment in history. And what an incredible gift he is.

 

[pnewton]

And yet it is okay to judge people who do so? What a hypocritical statement.

Would you call Jesus a hypocrite?

Yes, he just did. It is important that we hold a mirror to ourselves when our teacher is teaching, and not try and make some sort of infinity tunnel from two mirrors held toward others (i.e., judging others for judging others, for judging others, etc.)

 

[pnewton]

Here are some verses from the New Testament that provide some (name removed by moderator)ut about how we are to deal with the problem of flagrant sinners and obstinate dissenters. Don’t shoot the messenger.

Would you include the obstinate dissenters here, who, instead of listening to the Vicar of Christ choose to harden their hearts and only look at how this applies to others? Of course the application to liberals was justified. There is a real danger to the liberal, or more accurately, moral relativist, who does not see sin in others only because he refuses to recognize sin. However, not all liberals are moral relativist and moral relativist exist across the political spectrum.

 

[pnewton]

. It seems like most of his invective is directed at practicing Catholics (priests, religious and lay) who are at least trying to do what they think is right, even if they are misguided.

Consider the yardstick by which this statement is made. Do you walk with the Pope and follow his every word, or do you read what is written about him, the selections that make the news, or get posted on the internet? For all the hype and disparaging of the main stream media, I still see a lot of people the do not understand the process of presenting news involves filtering what is presented. It is like Admiral Ackbar yelled, “It’s a trap” during all his battle preparations and then believed he had to go through with entering the trap.

Sometimes when something “seems” a certain way, it is intentionally presented to us to be seen that way. In this case, the Pope’s homilies are taken from the readings of the day. This one seems totally apt for this reading.

 

[1neophyte]

The Eucharist is not a means for achieving the state of grace… that is what the sacrament of penance is for.

Are you serious? All seven of the sacraments are a means for achieving the state of grace. If you haven’t received grace from receiving the Eucharist, then something is terribly wrong. If you can’t grasp basic elementary arithmetic, then stay out of calculus-level discussions. You just add the confused mess that already exists, rather than being helpful in any way.

 

[edwest2]

Pope Francis is, without question, God’s gift to the Church and to the world for this moment in history. And what an incredible gift he is.

I agree.

Ed

 

[Indyann]

Are you serious? All seven of the sacraments are a means for achieving the state of grace. If you haven’t received grace from receiving the Eucharist, then something is terribly wrong. If you can’t grasp basic elementary arithmetic, then stay out of calculus-level discussions. You just add the confused mess that already exists, rather than being helpful in any way.

Perhaps, sustaining, rather than achieving might be a more accurate word to use. To me, achieving implies receiving something that was not present prior to the achievement. Such as, a college degree, a job promotion, etc.

 

[1neophyte]

Perhaps, sustaining, rather than achieving might be a more accurate word to use. To me, achieving implies receiving something that was not present prior to the achievement. Such as, a college degree, a job promotion, etc.

So essentially, the Eucharist doesn’t change us in any way? I can eat a piece of chicken and it changes me, but the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus simply maintains and sustains me me as I am?

 

[Indyann]

So essentially, the Eucharist doesn’t change us in any way? I can eat a piece of chicken and it changes me, but the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus simply maintains and sustains me me as I am?

Of course, that is not what I meant. The Eucharist both sustains and increases grace. You chose to use one word, therefore I chose one word. I am not into word games, so have a wonderful, blessed day!

 

[1neophyte]

Of course, that is not what I meant. The Eucharist both sustains and increases grace. You chose to use one word, therefore I chose one word. I am not into word games, so have a wonderful, blessed day!

You said that it was inaccurate to say the Eucharist is “achieving” anything, because achieving implies receiving something that was not present prior to the achievement. That’s not one word, and it isn’t a matter of word games. It goes to the heart of what the fundamental understanding of the Eucharist is. I would say that the most accurate (English) word for what happens when we receive the Eucharist is “gift.” A completely undeserved, unmerited, unwarranted gift. It is not a gift that is given to those who have earned it, because then it would not be given to anyone. And to even remotely insinuate that nothing is “achieved” when this gift is given is dangerous.

But again, this is off topic. And yet, not really. The whole notion of awards and achievements came up because of a reference to Joe Biden getting some award from Pope Francis. I have to confess, I have no idea what the award was, and I don’t even care enough to even try to find out. For all I know it was an award for “Best Dressed American Tourist in the Vatican.” It doesn’t matter. What does matter is the relentlessness with which some people criticize Pope Francis for all of the exact things that Jesus was criticized for in the gospels. It is just as much of an affront to Truth as atheism or abortion or same sex marriage. It is even worse when it’s based on disingenuous deception, such as “Pope Francis gives awards to immoral people, and spits upon those of us who are faithful Catholics doing what we think is right.”

It isn’t only the Eucharist that God gives as an undeserved free gift. It is certainly the highest gift that He gives, but the reliable rhythm we find in nature is just as unmerited and just as necessary, whether it’s the sun rising every morning or every heartbeat that keeps us alive, even when we are not conscious of it. These gifts are given to the worst sinners and and the greatest saints alike. Pope Francis is saying that it is corrupt to spend even a moment judging others, as opposed to letting gratitude for this unfathomable reality be our focus. He is absolutely correct. Jesus said the same thing, and He was absolutely correct as well.

I come to this message board every now and then, desperately searching for signs of life. I don’t have any idea why any allegedly faithful Catholic would even slightly criticize Pope Francis for anything he has done. If he had allowed Joe Biden to concelebrate mass with him, then we would have reason to be upset. If he had promised canonization to Barack Obama immediately upon his death, I would be the first to object. But to complain about some unspecified “award” or a proclamation that we are all sinners who have no basis for judgement of anyone but ourselves? It sounds like absolute nonsense to me. However, since it’s usually wrapped in pious language that sounds really good, I’m am constantly trying to understand what I’m missing. I sincerely want to know what “key” these people have that gives them a better understanding of Truth than Pope Francis or I do.

I heard someone somewhere say that Catholicism is based on both extreme demands and extreme mercy. That rings very, very true to me in light of everything Jesus said and did in His life on Earth (at least the words and actions that we have a record of). When someone comes along and declares that we have to put limits on mercy, and that mercy can’t be too extreme, for fear of lessening the power of the extreme demands, then it seems to me that Truth is being compromised. There is quite literally nothing as important as getting this right. That is why I’m constantly trying to refine my own understanding, and every time I come here, I’m shocked at how far off some people are, to the point where they’re criticizing the pope, and refuse to budge from their position. It isn’t a matter of word games. I really would like for someone to enlighten me as to what I’m missing, but I’m generally ignored.

 

[deaconjohnO]

Are you serious? All seven of the sacraments are a means for achieving the state of grace. If you haven’t received grace from receiving the Eucharist, then something is terribly wrong. If you can’t grasp basic elementary arithmetic, then stay out of calculus-level discussions. You just add the confused mess that already exists, rather than being helpful in any way.

If one is not in a state of grace the normal sacramental means to achieve the state grace is either to be baptized if you have not been baptized or receive the sacrament of reconciliation AKA confession.

Correct me if I am wrong but do you mean we receive graces from all of the sacraments? If so you are correct but… there is a difference between receiving graces and being in a state of grace.

You run the risk of causing confusion here if you are alluding to the fact that one can achieve that state of grace by communion when in fact Catholics are to abstain from communion if they are not in a state of grace.

 

[deaconjohnO]

I agree.

Ed

I agree wholeheartedly. With adding equal weight regarding His predecessors. In my lifetime Paul VI, Saint John Paul the Great, and Benedict XVI.

All of them what an incredible gift that keeps on giving and giving…ie: Humanae Vitae. Sacrum Diaconatus Ordinem, Veritatis Splendor, familiaris consortio, (Wednesday theology of the Body audiences), Deus Caritas est, Evangelii Gaudium, and very likely more to come.

Thank you Lord!

 

[Indyann]

If one is not in a state of grace the normal sacramental means to achieve the state grace is either to be baptized if you have not been baptized or receive the sacrament of reconciliation AKA confession.

Correct me if I am wrong but do you mean we receive graces from all of the sacraments? If so you are correct but… there is a difference between receiving graces and being in a state of grace.

You run the risk of causing confusion here if you are alluding to the fact that one can achieve that state of grace by communion when in fact Catholics are to abstain from communion if they are not in a state of grace.

 

[edwest2]

I agree wholeheartedly. With adding equal weight regarding His predecessors. In my lifetime Paul VI, Saint John Paul the Great, and Benedict XVI.

All of them what an incredible gift that keeps on giving and giving…ie: Humanae Vitae. Sacrum Diaconatus Ordinem, Veritatis Splendor, familiaris consortio, (Wednesday theology of the Body audiences), Deus Caritas est, Evangelii Gaudium, and very likely more to come.

Thank you Lord!

Yes. All of these Popes responded to the call of the Holy Spirit. They knew, on a practical level, what was happening and simply kept on doing the things that needed to be done. Gradually, things are changing. The last 40 years have seen change after change in the outside world. The ship is being set right. The light of the Truth is dissipating the darkness, bit by bit.

God Bless Pope Francis,

Ed

 

[deaconjohnO]

Yes. All of these Popes responded to the call of the Holy Spirit. They knew, on a practical level, what was happening and simply kept on doing the things that needed to be done. Gradually, things are changing. The last 40 years have seen change after change in the outside world. The ship is being set right. The light of the Truth is dissipating the darkness, bit by bit.

God Bless Pope Francis,

Ed

Oh I completely agree the light is spreading. Evidence is in the documents like Summorum Pontificum are a spreading of that light dissipating the darkness.

 

[fin]

It would be well for Pope Francis to follow his own advice.

 

[irenaeus1]

Are you serious? All seven of the sacraments are a means for achieving the state of grace. If you haven’t received grace from receiving the Eucharist, then something is terribly wrong. If you can’t grasp basic elementary arithmetic, then stay out of calculus-level discussions. You just add the confused mess that already exists, rather than being helpful in any way.

Oh my, are you serious? One must be in a state of grace prior to receiving the Eucharist; therefore, receiving the Eucharist is not a means of ‘achieving the state of grace.’

Also, you can feel free to disagree with what I state, but please provide a counter argument rather than being insulting; this would be appreciated.