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PrintzLeonhard
Guest
If you think continence is the same as celibacy I don’t blame you. Beyond that I’m not sure exactly what’s to be confused about.
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Hazen_Pingree
Guest
Printz,
You wrote earlier that “desire in and of itself is not sinful.” But what about lust? And where is the dividing point between desire and lust? If desire is a neutral feeling, an inclination, a condition or state of emotional self awareness that doesn’t lead to lust, then I suppose it is not sinful in and of itself. But, if desire is a mask for lust (that is, a disordered desire for sexual gratification), then it becomes a pernicious and soul destroying vice.
The CCC states that “homosexual acts (my italics), are intrinsically disordered” (CCC 2357), but then it parses the subject further to state (in CCC 2358), that the inclination itself is “intrinsically disordered.” The inclination is the desire, and this desire – if it is harbored in the heart – leads to sin. Homosexual attraction is dangerous to the soul.
Heterosexual attraction is the normative and necessary ground for the survival of the species. It is an intrinsic and compelling human behavior that enables us to respond to God’s first commandment that we be “fruitful and multiply.” Homosexual behavior and desire, on the other hand, is aberrant.
We need to look carefully at what the Pope is saying (or not saying). I’m not certain that I understand what he is saying, but I pray that I might become better informed and always compliant with the teachings of the Church.
You wrote earlier that “desire in and of itself is not sinful.” But what about lust? And where is the dividing point between desire and lust? If desire is a neutral feeling, an inclination, a condition or state of emotional self awareness that doesn’t lead to lust, then I suppose it is not sinful in and of itself. But, if desire is a mask for lust (that is, a disordered desire for sexual gratification), then it becomes a pernicious and soul destroying vice.
The CCC states that “homosexual acts (my italics), are intrinsically disordered” (CCC 2357), but then it parses the subject further to state (in CCC 2358), that the inclination itself is “intrinsically disordered.” The inclination is the desire, and this desire – if it is harbored in the heart – leads to sin. Homosexual attraction is dangerous to the soul.
Heterosexual attraction is the normative and necessary ground for the survival of the species. It is an intrinsic and compelling human behavior that enables us to respond to God’s first commandment that we be “fruitful and multiply.” Homosexual behavior and desire, on the other hand, is aberrant.
We need to look carefully at what the Pope is saying (or not saying). I’m not certain that I understand what he is saying, but I pray that I might become better informed and always compliant with the teachings of the Church.
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PrintzLeonhard
Guest
Without a doubt lust is sinful, that goes for both heterosexuals and for those who are homosexuals, and all the various people in between those categories.
To be pure means more than simple not feeling various sexual attractions. Very few virgins escaped temptations. St. Alphonsus de Ligouri struggled often against his concupiscence. These all represent dangers. All of them. If you’re a man, and a woman walks by you, and its a woman you happen to like, that can lead to you feeling sexually attracted. That attraction is not evil in and of itself… its part of the drive that makes couple seek out eachother. However if it starts produce voluntary sexual fantasies in you, then you’re definitely engaging in lust.
Those two situations are as clearly different, as a person sipping wine at a dinner party, and someone alone drinking his twelth beer.
So we while we agree on that. Not all sexual attraction is wrong.
You seem to imply that even involuntarily feeling homosexual attraction somehow being sinful, and that simple doesn’t square with moral theology. I would say yes, if it was sought out for its own sake. If one looks at gay pornography, if one flirts with guys (being a guy oneself), if one fantasizes about a particular person you know, or even a dreamt up person.
All that would be species of lust.
But there’s a world of difference between that and a person with SSA feeling sexually attracted to another guy, per accidens, doesn’t assent to it and focuses on something else.
Hard truth. Almost no one with SSA are ever healed of it, neither through prayer, rosaries, sacraments, penances, fastings or meditations. Its simple an involuntary ingrained part of how their bodies work.
Most people with SSA are however still capable of forming emotional and even sexual relationships with a woman, because they’re also attracted to women. Few homosexuals are entirely monosexual, many of them have bisexual tendencies as well. And then there’s all those who are outright bisexual.
If this desire is mostly exclusively towards guys, then that leads to you be called to a life of celibacy. You’re unfit for marriage, the priesthood or the religious vocation (depending on the level of attachment, and the discretion of the superior of course). However you will no more be called to control what gives you an erection, or accidentally causes you to be aroused, than anyone else is.
To be pure means more than simple not feeling various sexual attractions. Very few virgins escaped temptations. St. Alphonsus de Ligouri struggled often against his concupiscence. These all represent dangers. All of them. If you’re a man, and a woman walks by you, and its a woman you happen to like, that can lead to you feeling sexually attracted. That attraction is not evil in and of itself… its part of the drive that makes couple seek out eachother. However if it starts produce voluntary sexual fantasies in you, then you’re definitely engaging in lust.
Those two situations are as clearly different, as a person sipping wine at a dinner party, and someone alone drinking his twelth beer.
So we while we agree on that. Not all sexual attraction is wrong.
You seem to imply that even involuntarily feeling homosexual attraction somehow being sinful, and that simple doesn’t square with moral theology. I would say yes, if it was sought out for its own sake. If one looks at gay pornography, if one flirts with guys (being a guy oneself), if one fantasizes about a particular person you know, or even a dreamt up person.
All that would be species of lust.
But there’s a world of difference between that and a person with SSA feeling sexually attracted to another guy, per accidens, doesn’t assent to it and focuses on something else.
Hard truth. Almost no one with SSA are ever healed of it, neither through prayer, rosaries, sacraments, penances, fastings or meditations. Its simple an involuntary ingrained part of how their bodies work.
Most people with SSA are however still capable of forming emotional and even sexual relationships with a woman, because they’re also attracted to women. Few homosexuals are entirely monosexual, many of them have bisexual tendencies as well. And then there’s all those who are outright bisexual.
If this desire is mostly exclusively towards guys, then that leads to you be called to a life of celibacy. You’re unfit for marriage, the priesthood or the religious vocation (depending on the level of attachment, and the discretion of the superior of course). However you will no more be called to control what gives you an erection, or accidentally causes you to be aroused, than anyone else is.
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Hazen_Pingree
Guest
Thank you Prinz,
As someone who has struggled with pornography in the past, I can assure you that, despite what you say, a man can – and must – control his erection. And, when he finds himself aroused, he must immediately turn away from that which, for him, will become an occasion for sin. With God’s grace, all of this is possible. We are not slaves to our sexual members nor to our sinfulness.
As someone who has struggled with pornography in the past, I can assure you that, despite what you say, a man can – and must – control his erection. And, when he finds himself aroused, he must immediately turn away from that which, for him, will become an occasion for sin. With God’s grace, all of this is possible. We are not slaves to our sexual members nor to our sinfulness.
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PrintzLeonhard
Guest
About all a person can do in those cases, at least in my humble experience, is to turn away from the source of temptation and it typically subsides on its own.
I’m very impressed with your pious self-control if you’re in fact capable of voluntarily controlling your erections. That’s very saintly.
Beyond that I’d suggest to anyone not to worry much more about it. That’s bound to cause scruples, confess your sins to a good confessor and follow his advice.
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Hazen_Pingree
Guest
Printz,
Only by the grace of God. Without Him, I can do nothing.
Only by the grace of God. Without Him, I can do nothing.
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PrintzLeonhard
Guest
At any rate, we don’t seem to disagree… beyond that odd thing about erections. People who are starting to see the near occassion of lust, should turn to something else.
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RACJ
Guest
Or, the ultimate justice and judgment of God.
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Hazen_Pingree
Guest
Printz writes: “Almost no one with SSA are ever healed of it, neither through prayer, rosaries, sacraments, penances, fastings or meditations. Its simpl
an involuntary ingrained part of how their bodies work.”
I think there may be problems with this statement.
First, if a person with SSA needs to be “healed,” the implication is that he (or she) is sick. If so, what is the “sickness”? Is it a physical sickness, a mental illness, an emotional disability, a sexual dysfunction? Or, is it the sickness of sin – a “soul” sickness? My sense is that it is the last in this litany of maladies that is most common.
Secondly, what is it about this sickness that prayer, penance and sacraments supposedly cannot heal? I am confident that God, in His mercy, can (and, in the end, will) mend all that ails us. He can bring sight to the blind, heal the leper and raise the dead back to life. The person with SSA is not without hope. God is far more powerful than any of our failings. To suggest that a man or woman with homosexual tendencies is beyond the reach of God’s mercy is simply not true.
Finally, as to the inherent, “involuntary” and “ingrained” qualities of homosexual desire, I find this the most difficult of all to believe. Thieves are not bound to steal, liars need not lie, the proud can become humble, and even murderers are not sentenced to murder again and again. We can rebuke our sins, repent of our sinfulness, and refuse to ever return to that which has brought us to live against God’s will. And, if we are sincere in our repentance, God’s grace will be our inheritance, and He will be our ROCK!
We do our SSA brothers and sisters an injustice if we refuse to call their sin a sin. We cannot pretend that what is happening in their lives is somehow beyond the reach of a loving God. No one should have to live like that, lost in sin and away from the salvation of God.
I don’t want to judge these people – that’s God’s business – but I also don’t want judgement heaped upon my brow because I refused to help someone escape from the chains of sin.
an involuntary ingrained part of how their bodies work.”I think there may be problems with this statement.
First, if a person with SSA needs to be “healed,” the implication is that he (or she) is sick. If so, what is the “sickness”? Is it a physical sickness, a mental illness, an emotional disability, a sexual dysfunction? Or, is it the sickness of sin – a “soul” sickness? My sense is that it is the last in this litany of maladies that is most common.
Secondly, what is it about this sickness that prayer, penance and sacraments supposedly cannot heal? I am confident that God, in His mercy, can (and, in the end, will) mend all that ails us. He can bring sight to the blind, heal the leper and raise the dead back to life. The person with SSA is not without hope. God is far more powerful than any of our failings. To suggest that a man or woman with homosexual tendencies is beyond the reach of God’s mercy is simply not true.
Finally, as to the inherent, “involuntary” and “ingrained” qualities of homosexual desire, I find this the most difficult of all to believe. Thieves are not bound to steal, liars need not lie, the proud can become humble, and even murderers are not sentenced to murder again and again. We can rebuke our sins, repent of our sinfulness, and refuse to ever return to that which has brought us to live against God’s will. And, if we are sincere in our repentance, God’s grace will be our inheritance, and He will be our ROCK!
We do our SSA brothers and sisters an injustice if we refuse to call their sin a sin. We cannot pretend that what is happening in their lives is somehow beyond the reach of a loving God. No one should have to live like that, lost in sin and away from the salvation of God.
I don’t want to judge these people – that’s God’s business – but I also don’t want judgement heaped upon my brow because I refused to help someone escape from the chains of sin.
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CrossofChrist
Guest
To the people who questioned this: this sentence is an example of what Catholics DON’T believe, and how Catholics should distance themselves from this position.
See the rest of his post:
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Hazen_Pingree
Guest
DaddyGirl writes:“I’m very curious as to how you are confident about this…when billions of people have prayed thousands of times, century after century, for God to heal what ails them…and they do not get healed.”
My confidence comes from personal experience and from revelation. I know that God is real. And I know that he is truth. And I know that God is love. I know that he loves me, and that he loves you very much. I have seen (and by the grace of God, continue to see) his miracles every single day.The billions who have prayed throughout history have (or will have) their prayers answered because God honors every prayer. Our problem is that we can’t always understand or accept his answer. And this, I think, has more to do with the temporality of earthly existence. We are defined by time, but God is not. We think he is not hearing our prayer, but we can’t imagine the immensity of his concern for us. If we hear “not now,” does that mean “never”? I do not think so. His ways are mysterious but they are always loving. We have eternal souls and God’s plans for us are for eternity. Knowing this, and knowing that God loves us so gives me confidence. I trust in God and he will not fail. That does not mean that I will never cry, never hurt, never sin again; I will. But I will endeavor with my heart to be as close to God as two coats of paint.
I said that my confidence comes from experience and, rather than spend time on the detail, just let me say that I have seen the bottom of the world, a pit dug deep and narrow by my own efforts, so deep that I could not see the sky above – and God was there. In the end, he’s always there. I began to pray. That’s the beginning, prayer. It’s the beginning of relationship. Once we are in relationship, God will never abandon us come hell or high water.
The revelation I write of is found in Sacred Scripture and the teachings of the Church. Here’s one – perhaps the most important one in light of your concerns: “And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.” (Revelation 21:4)
My confidence comes from personal experience and from revelation. I know that God is real. And I know that he is truth. And I know that God is love. I know that he loves me, and that he loves you very much. I have seen (and by the grace of God, continue to see) his miracles every single day.The billions who have prayed throughout history have (or will have) their prayers answered because God honors every prayer. Our problem is that we can’t always understand or accept his answer. And this, I think, has more to do with the temporality of earthly existence. We are defined by time, but God is not. We think he is not hearing our prayer, but we can’t imagine the immensity of his concern for us. If we hear “not now,” does that mean “never”? I do not think so. His ways are mysterious but they are always loving. We have eternal souls and God’s plans for us are for eternity. Knowing this, and knowing that God loves us so gives me confidence. I trust in God and he will not fail. That does not mean that I will never cry, never hurt, never sin again; I will. But I will endeavor with my heart to be as close to God as two coats of paint.
I said that my confidence comes from experience and, rather than spend time on the detail, just let me say that I have seen the bottom of the world, a pit dug deep and narrow by my own efforts, so deep that I could not see the sky above – and God was there. In the end, he’s always there. I began to pray. That’s the beginning, prayer. It’s the beginning of relationship. Once we are in relationship, God will never abandon us come hell or high water.
The revelation I write of is found in Sacred Scripture and the teachings of the Church. Here’s one – perhaps the most important one in light of your concerns: “And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.” (Revelation 21:4)
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at9009
Guest
So I’ve been following your discussion here. As a guy with SSA, let me give my perspective. So, I tried the whole pray for the attractions to be remove. I believed that if I had enough faith, God would remove this particular cross of mine. I think that is a total distortion of our faith with God. It changes from us submitting to God to God submitting to us. Basically with the mentality of if I’m faithful enough, God will give me X (whether that be cure from illness, a spouse, better job, escape from a bad situation, whatever). When X, doesn’t come, one begins to doubt their faith with Christ, doubt their salvation, and even quite possibly doubt God’s existence. It nearly destroyed my faith because I incorrectly associated the removal of my attractions with being in a state of grace and savable (if that makes sense). It actually took grace from God for me to realize my error in viewing faith and actually trust God (that I wasn’t evil or unlovable because of my attractions). I’m not to saying this is your perspective but just it’s healthy to realize that God’s ways are not our own and our crosses or trials might remain with us this side of Heaven.
So, can God remove my attractions. Absolutely, He’s God, He can do anything. Will He remove them? I don’t know what His Will for me is. It is quite possible these attractions will remain for the rest of my life and represent my cross to bear (like Paul’s thorn in his side [2 Corinthians 12:8-10]). Does that mean I’m screwed… NO. What God does promise is to always give us the grace to resist our temptations or even an escape route (1 Corinthians 10:13).
Additionally, often our crosses help us truly see our dependence on Christ and are a reminder for us to constantly to be looking to him. So, while the cross is annoying and an inclination to sin, it in a weird sense is also a blessing because it reminds me of my utter dependence on Christ (which can be said with any cross).
Hope my perspective and rambly response helps
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Hazen_Pingree
Guest
Thank you at9009. I couldn’t agree with you more. God does indeed give us the grace we need to bear our cross and live in this world. May God continue to bless you always.
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at9009
Guest
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unafraid
Guest
The Holy Father, true to his tender nature, is once again offering his compassion to those who “struggle”, and I emphasize again, “struggle”, with this complex, and mysterious, proclivity.
He in no way is condoning, nor embracing the political/cultural subversive movement that has darkly risen from this peculiarity of the human condition. We can be completely clear in our knowledge that the pope is fully aware that there is a diabolical aspect to this phenomenon that quite frankly can no longer be ignored.
Homosexuality has mysteriously crept to the forefront of modern moral, religious, and cultural polemics. It has become a thing which cuts at the holy fabric of God’s Law, and his Holy Word. Pope Francis is not blind to this truth. He knows that mercy finds its ending point at the gates of Hell, and with Satan himself, who is the author of all discord.
The “father of all lies” continues to confound us with his tangled web of lies, distortions, and machinations. Homosexuality is just another means to achieve his foul and hateful ends. We shall see how far this will all go, but we must always remember that the “Man of Sin” who will come, wil be one drenched in the rank stench of carnal filth, and will embrace every type of impurity. To stand against his ways will probably demand martyrdom. Frightening, but true.
Repentance and conversion is the “Clarion Call” of our religion. Pope Francis, as the head of our Catholic Church, states this with every mass he celebrates. He is calling the sinners to come to the mercy of Christ. Any other interpretation of his actions is patently false.
He in no way is condoning, nor embracing the political/cultural subversive movement that has darkly risen from this peculiarity of the human condition. We can be completely clear in our knowledge that the pope is fully aware that there is a diabolical aspect to this phenomenon that quite frankly can no longer be ignored.
Homosexuality has mysteriously crept to the forefront of modern moral, religious, and cultural polemics. It has become a thing which cuts at the holy fabric of God’s Law, and his Holy Word. Pope Francis is not blind to this truth. He knows that mercy finds its ending point at the gates of Hell, and with Satan himself, who is the author of all discord.
The “father of all lies” continues to confound us with his tangled web of lies, distortions, and machinations. Homosexuality is just another means to achieve his foul and hateful ends. We shall see how far this will all go, but we must always remember that the “Man of Sin” who will come, wil be one drenched in the rank stench of carnal filth, and will embrace every type of impurity. To stand against his ways will probably demand martyrdom. Frightening, but true.
Repentance and conversion is the “Clarion Call” of our religion. Pope Francis, as the head of our Catholic Church, states this with every mass he celebrates. He is calling the sinners to come to the mercy of Christ. Any other interpretation of his actions is patently false.
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JB_Brother_4446
Guest
The people in the genocide were killed by people not by God. They are in a better place.
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Luigi_Daniele
Guest
Could you please let us (me in particular
) know how you like the book, ok? (via PM, if I miss your reply).Thanks!
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christofirst
Guest
I’m on chapter 3 of “The Name of God is Mercy” right now, and it is vintage Pope Francis: So encouraging! If someone wants a triumphalist sort of “Tough love” or “Drill sergeant Catholicism”, this might not be the book for them. But I am loving every page. Of course, my favorite Pope Benedict book is “Light of the World”, the interview book he did with Peter Seewald. There’s something about the interview format that lets their humanity shine through. I’ll let you know, one way or another, my final review once I finish the book.Could you please let us (me in particular
Thanks!
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Dominique1234
Guest
It appears that the National Catholic Reporter has a petition against it concerning dissent from the Catholic Faith for teaching/reporting false doctrine. I suggest finding a better source concerning what the Pope says and means.
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christofirst
Guest
Are you talking about the Pope’s book, “The Name of God is Mercy”? Is there some specific dissent that you are aware of? The words of the book, after all, are those of Pope Francis himself, as told to the journalist.
There is a very telling passage in the book: The journalist (Andrea Tornielli) sent a copy of the still unpublished book to Pope Francis for him to proofread. The Holy Father made a very specific correction, which Tornielli admitted came about because of an instance of careless note-taking. It was only one word missing, but the pope very much wanted it to be included, which in the end it was. This indicates to me that the Pope says things much more deliberately than some of us seem to think. The fact that he remembered one specific phrase told to the journalist weeks before tells me he very likely chooses his words much more carefully than some of us realize or want to admit.
Anyway, I’ve finished reading the book myself, and I stand by my initial recommendation. The last quarter of the book is actually the official Vatican statement concerning the Jubilee Year of Mercy, the papal bull, Misericordiae Vultis. The rest of the book is a very encouraging explanation of the Mercy of God, told with many real life, often gritty, anecdotes from Pope Francis’ own ministry. I don’t think I’ve ever read a Pope who talks so frankly about the miserable situations we get ourselves into, like prostitution and irregular marriages. Yet even these situations are not beyond the reach of God’s mercy. Good news, indeed!
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