Francis: 'For God, no one is definitively lost. Never!'

  • Thread starter Thread starter gilliam
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
G

gilliam

Guest
ROME Pope Francis reiterated Wednesday that the Catholic church can never consider someone irrevocably separated from its global community, saying that Jesus does not consider anyone “definitively lost” but instead seeks them out to welcome them anew.
In a reflection in his weekly general audience on the Gospel parable of the shepherd who leaves 99 sheep to find one who has become lost, the pontiff said that in Jesus’ vision “there are not sheep who are definitively lost but only sheep meant to be found.”

“We must understand this well: for God, no one is definitively lost,” said the pope. “Never! Up to the last moment, God looks for us.”

“The perspective therefore is … dynamic, open, stimulating, and creative,” said Francis. “It pushes us to go out in search of undertaking a way of fraternity.”

“No distance can keep the shepherd away; and no flock can renounce a brother or sister,” he continued. “Finding who is lost is the joy of the pastor and of God, but is also the joy of the whole flock! We are all sheep who have been found and gathered up by the mercy of the Lord, called to gather together to him the whole flock!”

ncronline.org/blogs/ncr-today/francis-god-no-one-definitively-lost-never#.VyoDXXe1qVs.twitter
 
:flawedunderstandingalert:

This seems to contradict the understanding that God, being eternal, knows the end from the beginning, and therefore already knows who is lost, based on his foreknowledge of the choices that each individual will make, and his foreknowledge of what the status of each individual’s soul will be at the moment of death.

:/flawedunderstandingalert:
 
When Pope Francis said “Up to the last moment. God looks for us.” I took to mean that we are never definitively lost until we die. As the Bible tells us God doesn’t want anyone to be lost. But he wishes everyone to be saved. This is why he created us. To be with Him forever in heaven. To me, looking for the lost sheep means that God gives every opportunity for each person to turn to Him for salvation. We can be definitively lost but not until we die. If we refuse to come to God up to the very end, then we will be lost for eternity.
 
Thinking about the Pope’s statement that “no flock can renounce a brother or sister” I agree in a certain sense. We renounce the sin and not the person. However, sometimes after lovingly and unsuccessfully trying to bring a sinner back to the right path we may need to “treat him as a Gentile.” And in extreme cases sometimes we need to expel someone from the Church. This should not mean a lack of love for that person but a hope that they will repent and return. We can always (and should) continue to pray for such people.
 
prayerandstudy said:
Thinking about the Pope’s statement that “no flock can renounce a brother or sister” I agree in a certain sense. We renounce the sin and not the person. However, sometimes after lovingly and unsuccessfully trying to bring a sinner back to the right path we may need to “treat him as a Gentile.” And in extreme cases sometimes we need to expel someone from the Church. This should not mean a lack of love for that person but a hope that they will repent and return. We can always (and should) continue to pray for such people.
Click to expand...
I don’t hear the Pope say that at all. ‘We need to expel someone from the Church’? Hmmm. I hear him say just the opposite.
 
prayerandstudy said:
sometimes after lovingly and unsuccessfully trying to bring a sinner back to the right path we may need to “treat him as a Gentile.” And in extreme cases sometimes we need to expel someone from the Church.
Click to expand...
Excommunication technically doesn’t sever someone from being in the Church. At least not in an absolute sense. The mark of baptism still remains on excommunicated people, and if asked what religion they are, people should still say they are Catholic even if they’ve been excommunicated. Excommunication is medicinal and it’s supposed to remind someone of the grave damage they are doing to their own souls, but excommunicates are still part of the Church.

Pope Francis knows this. Early in his pontificate he excommunicated a priest for supporting “same-sex marriage,” abortion, and female ordination. source

It is also noteworthy that Pope Francis acknowledges the reality and eternity of hell.

“[M]afia crimes [produce] blood money, it is power soaked in blood, and you cannot take it with you to the next life. Convert, there is still time, so that you don’t end up in hell. That is what awaits you if you continue on this path.” source

“God of infinite mercy… May none of your children be lost to the eternal fires of hell, where repentance is no more.” source
 
ComplineSanFran said:
I don’t hear the Pope say that at all. ‘We need to expel someone from the Church’? Hmmm. I hear him say just the opposite.
Click to expand...
Excommunication is a remedy, not a punishment. If less drastic remedies have failed, sometimes this rare remedy works. Excommunicated persons sometimes come back to the
Sacrament of Reconciliation. They are still in the Church’s concern, still baptized. They are never outside God’s love and attention. Sometimes God uses the Church. I don’t hear Pope Francis saying “we’ll use most means available to us, but we won’t use this remedy because it might make the Church unpopular”.

The thing about the Catholic Church is that there is something definite, solid and loving to come back to. Some denominations are saying you can do whatever you want, believe whatever you want, and you are still a Christian, and they will gladly keep taking your tithes and tell you whatever makes you feel good. The alternative to excommunication would be doctors who told people smoking is harmless, when doctors knew it was very bad. They did not want to lose patients or have stressful conversations. That is what we have in the mainline denominations. Not RCC.
 
After reading these posts I wanted to see how the Church actually explains excommunication. This definition is in the glossary of the Catechism of the Catholic Church: " A severe ecclesiastical penalty, resulting from grave crimes against the Catholic religion, imposed by ecclesiastical authority or incurred as a direct result of the commission of an offense. Excommunication excludes the offender from taking part in the Eucharist or other sacraments and from the exercise of any ecclesiastical office, ministry, or function."
 
ComplineSanFran said:
I don’t hear the Pope say that at all. ‘We need to expel someone from the Church’? Hmmm. I hear him say just the opposite.
Click to expand...
No, I believe the Pope acknowledges that there may be times to expel someone from the church community. Jesus and St. Paul does as well (see Matt 18:15-18 and I Cor 5:5, 13).
 
irenaeus1 said:
No, I believe the Pope acknowledges that there may be times to expel someone from the church community. Jesus and St. Paul does as well (see Matt 18:15-18 and I Cor 5:5, 13).
Click to expand...
So, he is saying, ‘For God, no one is lost. Never! EXCEPT…’?

I’m not trying to challenge church teaching - I am looking at the larger principle here. Which side does the church come down on? Everyone is loved by God and always included? Or there are ways and means to expel someone from God’s love and grace?
 
Pulvis said:
I would love to answer, but i would receive an infraction.
Click to expand...
I also received an infraction, it was worth 10 pts. I commented one of the Pope’s sermons. I did not agree with the meaning another poster gave to it. Mine was more critical but I did not think my words were that bad. Now I am afraid to say what I think. How many infractions are you allowed before they stop letting you on these forums?
 
ComplineSanFran said:
So, he is saying, ‘For God, no one is lost. Never! EXCEPT…’?

I’m not trying to challenge church teaching - I am looking at the larger principle here. Which side does the church come down on? Everyone is loved by God and always included? Or there are ways and means to expel someone from God’s love and grace?
Click to expand...
episcopalchurch.org/library/glossary/excommunication

“The disciplinary exclusion of a person from receiving communion by competent religious authority. It represents exclusion from the corporate life of the church. Excommunication was intended to encourage repentance and not meant to be a punishment. The Prayer Book Disciplinary Rubrics for the Holy Eucharist provide that if the priest “knows that a person who is living a notoriously evil life intends to come to Communion,” the priest shall tell the person not to come to communion until the person “has given clear proof of repentance and amendment of life.” Similarly, the priest shall not allow those who have wronged their neighbors and are a scandal to the other members of the congregation to receive communion “until they have made restitution for the wrong they have done, or have at least promised to do so.” When there is hatred between members of the congregation, the priest shall deny communion to those who refuse to forgive. If one side is open to forgiveness and the other refuses forgiveness, the priest shall allow those who “desire and promise to make up for their faults” to receive communion. The priest shall refuse to allow “those who are stubborn” (BCP, p. 409). These rubrics are a modern language version of disciplinary rubrics in the 1549 Prayer Book. The 1662 BCP added the requirement that the Bishop be notified within 14 days of an excommunication. This safeguard against unwarranted excommunication is continued in the 1979 BCP. It states that in all cases of excommunication the priest must notify the bishop within 14 days, “giving the reasons for refusing Communion.” In pastoral practice, the disciplinary rubric for excommunication is rarely used. Penitent persons at the point of death may not be refused communion.”
 
commenter said:
episcopalchurch.org/library/glossary/excommunication

“The disciplinary exclusion of a person from receiving communion by competent religious authority. It represents exclusion from the corporate life of the church. Excommunication was intended to encourage repentance and not meant to be a punishment. The Prayer Book Disciplinary Rubrics for the Holy Eucharist provide that if the priest “knows that a person who is living a notoriously evil life intends to come to Communion,” the priest shall tell the person not to come to communion until the person “has given clear proof of repentance and amendment of life.” Similarly, the priest shall not allow those who have wronged their neighbors and are a scandal to the other members of the congregation to receive communion “until they have made restitution for the wrong they have done, or have at least promised to do so.” When there is hatred between members of the congregation, the priest shall deny communion to those who refuse to forgive. If one side is open to forgiveness and the other refuses forgiveness, the priest shall allow those who “desire and promise to make up for their faults” to receive communion. The priest shall refuse to allow “those who are stubborn” (BCP, p. 409). These rubrics are a modern language version of disciplinary rubrics in the 1549 Prayer Book. The 1662 BCP added the requirement that the Bishop be notified within 14 days of an excommunication. This safeguard against unwarranted excommunication is continued in the 1979 BCP. It states that in all cases of excommunication the priest must notify the bishop within 14 days, “giving the reasons for refusing Communion.” In pastoral practice, the disciplinary rubric for excommunication is rarely used. Penitent persons at the point of death may not be refused communion.”
Click to expand...
:hmmm: Wonder if this applies to the Episcopal Church USA.
 
ComplineSanFran said:
So, he is saying, ‘For God, no one is lost. Never! EXCEPT…’?

I’m not trying to challenge church teaching - I am looking at the larger principle here. Which side does the church come down on? Everyone is loved by God and always included? Or there are ways and means to expel someone from God’s love and grace?
Click to expand...
No one is ever expelled from God’s love. However, we are free to refuse His love and grace. God will not force Himself or His love on us.

Even when the Church excommunicates someone (and it is very rare that it does), that person is still loved. You might look upon it as “tough love” such as parents might exercise by sending their teen/young adult child away not from lack of love but because they love the child enough to do what may be needed to wake up said child and turn his or her life around. Hopefully, as in the case of the Church, this is a last resort when all else fails and the situation is very serious.
 
DaveBj said:
This seems to contradict the understanding that God, being eternal, knows the end from the beginning, and therefore already knows who is lost, based on his foreknowledge of the choices that each individual will make, and his foreknowledge of what the status of each individual’s soul will be at the moment of death.
Click to expand...
But the Pope is not a Calvinist. I know what you mean, as it is one of the logic arguments against the existence of free will. If God know then future, then man is not free to choose. However, when we speak of God being outside of time, we mean more than he can just see the future. This is more of a discussion for philosophers, but there need not be a contradiction between free will (and the idea that no one is definitely lost) and the ability of God to know what lies ahead for each of us.
 
ComplineSanFran said:
So, he is saying, ‘For God, no one is lost. Never! EXCEPT…’?

I’m not trying to challenge church teaching - I am looking at the larger principle here. Which side does the church come down on? Everyone is loved by God and always included? Or there are ways and means to expel someone from God’s love and grace?
Click to expand...
Here is a good article to read about it that explains it very well:

catholic.com/magazine/articles/strong-medicine
 
JosieN said:
I also received an infraction, it was worth 10 pts. I commented one of the Pope’s sermons. I did not agree with the meaning another poster gave to it. Mine was more critical but I did not think my words were that bad. Now I am afraid to say what I think. How many infractions are you allowed before they stop letting you on these forums?
Click to expand...
Hello Josie,
I have been cautioned by the mods myself. I don’t know the exact rules, but here are some thoughts from me:
  • The mods don’t have an easy job. I have been on other forums away from CAF, and without moderation, they get nasty, irrelevant, and no fun or learning.
  • I find that the few times I was sanctioned, when I thought over the posts I had submitted, they were just me venting my emotions - totally unpersuasive. If anything, they would tend to harden my “opponents” into the viewpoint opposite mine. The important thing about a post is not what gets written, but rather what gets read and understood.
  • The shorter the post, the better. Sometimes I make what I think is a good point, then I can’t resist a little extra poke at the opposition, “so there!” When I do that, invariably there is no response to my good early point. I should have just posted that.
  • Regarding the pope, or some other named, specific person, best to be cautious. If you post, be brief, factual, try not to draw broad conclusions “he’s always doing this sort of thing, here are some of his motives”. The fact that the pope is the most prominent religious leader in the world, a forum could easily turn into a “he said, she said” match if not closely monitored.
  • Keep in mind I have no more connection to CAF than you do. I do not speak for CAF, just my own experiences as a member. Hope to see more of your posts.
 
It’s another way of saying dum spero, spiro. It’s not saying that God doesn’t know the end result, but that we cannot say someone is definitively lost when that someone is still alive (and only with the most extreme caution about those who have died).

I’m reminded, too, of one of the sayings my pastor is fond of: “God is not God the way I would be God if I were God. Thank God.”
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top