Francis: Spirit works in laypeople, 'is not property of the hierarchy'

[OraLabora]

I wouldn’t want Pope Francis to teach RCIA or CCD to my kids. He is not very well versed in the Faith, which you would think
would be required of a Pope. Strange times we are living in.

You are way out of line and I suggest reading the forum rules.

 

[otjm]

I have heard dissenting Catholics twist this “Spirit of the Laypeople” to excuse themselves and preach against Church teaching especially promoting liberal ideas.

I wonder if someone inside is telling the Pope to talk about these things or is this something the Pope is truly concerned about? Or maybe I know nothing, and in other countries clericalism is dominating the laypeople?

Actually, to answer a bit more: clericalism is not exactly new to the Church. However, Vatican 1 as cut short by a war, and many people took Vatican 1 far beyond what it said concerning the Pope, and clericalism was off to another running start.

Clericalism is not a particularly well discussed subject, but laity have their own version(s) of it; both among liberals and among conservatives; they just vary in what topics they feel the Pope needs to come out and promote or suppress. What gets ignored is that the Pope is not the CEO and the bishops simply mid level managers; and a good look at Vatican 2 (with over 2,000 bishops) forming the documents should give some clue as to at least part of the issue.

The issue of shepherd, which seems to be a recurring theme in this papacy, is one that too often gets lost. Yes, the Pope - and the bishops - need at times to speak out on something; but too often we look at them as simply law givers, and not as our spiritual guides and shepherds - an image that Christ used time and again.

 

[Vic_Taltrees_UK]

I really, really hope you’re joking, because if you’re not then I have to say that you are grossly misinformed about the Catholic Church. …

Just confused (on my more agnostic days) by mixed messages from clergy and laity alike, that’s all.

 

[Vic_Taltrees_UK]

I’ve known priests who regard themselves as collaborators with useful laity given a rough ride by people who insist they mount a pedestal so that they can be seen creeping to them.

I’ve also heard it advocated that lay people help catechise lay people - long term. Those things aren’t popular with the people that consider themselves “in”.

Hence a huge factor reinforcing clericalism is clericalism by proxy. Dysfunctional manipulators pretend to be subservient but get what they want out of the system. Then full-on predators have an easy way of getting in, by being cronies of the cronies.

Naievety about this is fostered by the Ancien Regime French who got it from the Louis XIII-XIV-XV style Berulleans who passed it on to the global Irish as unfortunately the English Catholics had been too weakened to help . The combined Ancien Regime and global Irish influence is strong in the St Lawrence-Great Lakes area with results we have sadly learned. Also the Irish influence in Australia. I am very very sad about it all as I survey it all through the internet. I think the Irish influence would be much much better if it wasn’t for this.

As I have picked up on this in recent years it explains things we always thought queer about Catholics outside the family as we were never close to clergy, it wouldn’t have occurred to us to be.

Clericalism particularly operates when clergy pretend to be friendly and relaxed and “good craic”. It’s called people-pleasing.

Clericalism whether wilful on the part of the padre or imposed by diseased laity is a major factor in clergy loneliness and breakdowns.

I’ve seen most of the above things in person and read about the rest, in large amounts.