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Augustinian
Guest
What I am trying to say is if you put the Latin versions of both masses side by side, I don’t think that one is more of a treasure than the other.
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O
otjm
Guest
Any boy who serves has contact with the priest; it is false flag to imply that because some of the servers are girls, boys no longer have that contact.
And please don’t give me the “boys won’t serve because they don’t want to be with girls” routine. That, short and sweet, is the “new parenting” model that we don’t want to hurt poor Johnny’s or poor Billy’s psyche. That is simply the abdication of parenting.
We have both girls and boys serving; some of each are high school age.
And in the last 25 years, we have produced 3 priests, 2 deacons, 1 current seminarian in Theology, and 2 young women who have joined what might be called more traditional orders.
And no, we are not a “traditional” parish. Our priests have “said the black and done the red”.
And please don’t give me the “boys won’t serve because they don’t want to be with girls” routine. That, short and sweet, is the “new parenting” model that we don’t want to hurt poor Johnny’s or poor Billy’s psyche. That is simply the abdication of parenting.
We have both girls and boys serving; some of each are high school age.
And in the last 25 years, we have produced 3 priests, 2 deacons, 1 current seminarian in Theology, and 2 young women who have joined what might be called more traditional orders.
And no, we are not a “traditional” parish. Our priests have “said the black and done the red”.
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ProVobis
Guest
Depends on what you mean by treasure. The Gloria, Credo, Pater Noster, Sanctus, and Agnus Dei, and the Roman Canon (except for the slightly modified consecration) have been preserved verbatim. The 62’ Missal however has a lot of the silent prayers which since have been dropped from the current missal.
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TheButler
Guest
Wouldn’t it challenge the infallibility of the Church? If Latin was once fine according to a previous pontiff changing that would suggest the previous pontiff and therefore the Church was wrong, no?
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Randolph
Guest
Jfz178… Perhaps, these excerpts from Vatican II will help you to re-think your position on Latin and the EF. You can see for yourself clearly that the Council Fathers did not see them as “dead” or “anachronistic”. In fact, they insisted on their preservation and on giving them “equal right and dignity.”
–Sacrosanctum Concilium, #4; December 4, 1963:
“Lastly, in faithful obedience to tradition, the sacred Council declares that holy Mother Church holds all lawfully acknowledged rites to be of equal right and dignity; that she wishes to preserve them in the future and to foster them in every way.”
–Sacrosanctum Concilium, #36; December 4, 1963:
“. . .the use of the Latin language is to be preserved in the Latin rites.”
—Sacrosanctum Concilium, #116; December 4, 1963:
“The Church acknowledges Gregorian chant as specially suited to the Roman liturgy: therefore, other things being equal, it should be given pride of place in liturgical services.”
—Orientalium Ecclesiarum, #2; November 21, 1964:
[From the Second Vatican Council document concerning the Eastern Rite Churches.]
“The Holy Catholic Church, which is the Mystical Body of Christ, is made up of the faithful who are organically united in the Holy Spirit by the same faith, the same sacraments and the same government and who, combining together into various groups which are held together by a hierarchy, form separate churches or Rites. Between these there exists an admirable bond of union, such that the variety within the Church in no way harms its unity; rather it manifests it, for it is the mind of the Catholic Church that each individual Church or Rite should retain its traditions whole and entire and likewise that it should adapt its way of life to the different needs of time and place.”
Also, an excerpt from Pope Benedict XVI to the bishops on his Motu Proprio in 2007:
—“There is no contradiction between the two editions of the Roman Missal. In the history of the liturgy there is growth and progress, but no rupture. What earlier generations held as sacred, remains sacred and great for us too, and it cannot be all of a sudden entirely forbidden or even considered harmful. It behooves all of us to preserve the riches which have developed in the Church’s faith and prayer, and to give them their proper place. Needless to say, in order to experience full communion, the priests of the communities adhering to the former usage cannot, as a matter of principle, exclude celebrating according to the new books. The total exclusion of the new rite would not in fact be consistent with the recognition of its value and holiness.“
–Sacrosanctum Concilium, #4; December 4, 1963:
“Lastly, in faithful obedience to tradition, the sacred Council declares that holy Mother Church holds all lawfully acknowledged rites to be of equal right and dignity; that she wishes to preserve them in the future and to foster them in every way.”
–Sacrosanctum Concilium, #36; December 4, 1963:
“. . .the use of the Latin language is to be preserved in the Latin rites.”
—Sacrosanctum Concilium, #116; December 4, 1963:
“The Church acknowledges Gregorian chant as specially suited to the Roman liturgy: therefore, other things being equal, it should be given pride of place in liturgical services.”
—Orientalium Ecclesiarum, #2; November 21, 1964:
[From the Second Vatican Council document concerning the Eastern Rite Churches.]
“The Holy Catholic Church, which is the Mystical Body of Christ, is made up of the faithful who are organically united in the Holy Spirit by the same faith, the same sacraments and the same government and who, combining together into various groups which are held together by a hierarchy, form separate churches or Rites. Between these there exists an admirable bond of union, such that the variety within the Church in no way harms its unity; rather it manifests it, for it is the mind of the Catholic Church that each individual Church or Rite should retain its traditions whole and entire and likewise that it should adapt its way of life to the different needs of time and place.”
Also, an excerpt from Pope Benedict XVI to the bishops on his Motu Proprio in 2007:
—“There is no contradiction between the two editions of the Roman Missal. In the history of the liturgy there is growth and progress, but no rupture. What earlier generations held as sacred, remains sacred and great for us too, and it cannot be all of a sudden entirely forbidden or even considered harmful. It behooves all of us to preserve the riches which have developed in the Church’s faith and prayer, and to give them their proper place. Needless to say, in order to experience full communion, the priests of the communities adhering to the former usage cannot, as a matter of principle, exclude celebrating according to the new books. The total exclusion of the new rite would not in fact be consistent with the recognition of its value and holiness.“
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Entwhistler
Guest
No. Infallibility only applies to faith and morals when the Pope speaks Ex Cathedra. Whether Latin is used or not in the liturgy has nothing to do with those two facets.
J
jfz178
Guest
That is the kind of Church doublespeak that gives me a headache to even read. Why can’t they just say what they mean and provide simple, plain language explanations? I can only assume it is an attempt to obfuscate.
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R_H_Benson
Guest
The man pictured in your avatar wrote an entire encyclical (Veterum sapientia) dedicated to the importance of Latin in the Catholic Church.
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jfz178
Guest
So? I don’t have to agree with him on everything to like him.
R
runningdude
Guest
It would be an incredibly insulting, damaging act to undo a signature act of his immediate predecessor. At the barest of minimum, it would give the left-wing elements of the media amble material with which to attack and mock the church (despite mocking the continued use of Latin previously). It could also drive away traditionally minded persons that otherwise fully accept the modern church.
To do such a damaging act while the immediate predecessor is still living is almost inconceivable. The rumors can only be assumed to be false and malicious in light of the real and immediate damage such actions would cause the church if taken.
To do such a damaging act while the immediate predecessor is still living is almost inconceivable. The rumors can only be assumed to be false and malicious in light of the real and immediate damage such actions would cause the church if taken.
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Spyridon
Guest
Just a quick factual correction.
There are actually 24 Churches which compose the Catholic Church - the Church is actually a communion of multiple Churches. The 23 Eastern Catholic Churches, and the Roman Catholic Church.
There are 6 families of Rites used among those 24 Churches, each of those 6 families having sub-families and differing usages.
The Eastern Orthodox have the Byzantine Rite, West Syrian, and a type of Roman Rite, but no Chaldean, Alexandrian or Armenian Rites.
The Oriental Orthodox use the Alexandrian, Armenian, West Syrian and East Syrian Rites, but have no Roman or Byzantine Rites.
The Assyrian Churches of the East use only the East Syrian/Chaldean Rite.
This is yet but one more example of why the Catholic Church is truly the Universal Church, the Sacrament of Salvation for the whole world.
There are actually 24 Churches which compose the Catholic Church - the Church is actually a communion of multiple Churches. The 23 Eastern Catholic Churches, and the Roman Catholic Church.
There are 6 families of Rites used among those 24 Churches, each of those 6 families having sub-families and differing usages.
- Roman Rite. The Roman aka Latin Rite has the Ordinary Form and Extraordinary Form usages. Other Latin Rites like the Bragan, Ambrosian and Mozarabic are variants of the Latin Rite.
- Byzantine Rite. The Byzantine Rite, which is most prolific among the Eastern Orthodox is used by the Ukrainian Catholics, Greek Catholics, and various others.
- Armenian Rite. The Armenian Rite is used by the Armenian Catholic and Armenian Apostolic Orthodox Churches.
- Alexandrian Rite. Alexandrian Rites are used by Copts, Ethiopians, and Eritreans, both Catholic and Orthodox.
- Antiochian or West Syrian Rite. Used by Syriac Catholics.
- Chaldean or East Syrian Rite. Used by Chaldean(Assyrian Catholics), Syro-Malankara and others.
The Eastern Orthodox have the Byzantine Rite, West Syrian, and a type of Roman Rite, but no Chaldean, Alexandrian or Armenian Rites.
The Oriental Orthodox use the Alexandrian, Armenian, West Syrian and East Syrian Rites, but have no Roman or Byzantine Rites.
The Assyrian Churches of the East use only the East Syrian/Chaldean Rite.
This is yet but one more example of why the Catholic Church is truly the Universal Church, the Sacrament of Salvation for the whole world.
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C
commenter
Guest
The nature of the Mass itself has dogmatic elements. But the FORM of the Mass can be, and has been in the past, modified for pastoral reasons. Both the EF and OF are faithful to the same dogma. This does not affect infallibility at all, it is a different kind of thing.Wouldn’t it challenge the infallibility of the Church? If Latin was once fine according to a previous pontiff changing that would suggest the previous pontiff and therefore the Church was wrong, no?
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omgriley
Guest
LifeSiteNews is garbage. So…
Yes, Francis can revoke Summorum Pontificorum. I seriously doubt he would do that.
Yes, Francis can revoke Summorum Pontificorum. I seriously doubt he would do that.
A
Augustinian
Guest
To be fair, however, Pope Francis is the first pope to have a still-living immediate predecessor in many centuries. The idea of popes resigning is one with no recent precedentsTo do such a damaging act while the immediate predecessor is still living is almost inconceivable. The rumors can only be assumed to be false and malicious in light of the real and immediate damage such actions would cause the church if taken.
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Randolph
Guest
If my memory serves correctly, I recall an interview given by Cardinal Sarah saying that Pope Francis asked the good Cardinal, soon after his papal election, to continue the liturgical reform set forth by Pope Benedict.
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runningdude
Guest
While the predecessor issue is unprecedented in recent history, it only serves as an intensifier for why a damaging rumored action that would be so inconceivable.
It would be widely shocking internally and would be widely mocked externally, for Pope Francis to rescind Pope Benedict’s policy, a policy which itself expanded on the policy of Pope Benedict’s predecessor - Pope Saint Jean Paul II. The right to celebrate according to the 1962 Traditional Missal has only been increasingly expanded.
It is itself nearly inconceivable that Pope Francis would reverse this trend, as it would be a slap in the face of two recent Popes, one of whom is known to be in heaven (Sainted)!
That the other of these two these predecessors is still living in this realm only means the rumors are malicious on their face, and can be discounted with extreme prejudice.
It would be widely shocking internally and would be widely mocked externally, for Pope Francis to rescind Pope Benedict’s policy, a policy which itself expanded on the policy of Pope Benedict’s predecessor - Pope Saint Jean Paul II. The right to celebrate according to the 1962 Traditional Missal has only been increasingly expanded.
It is itself nearly inconceivable that Pope Francis would reverse this trend, as it would be a slap in the face of two recent Popes, one of whom is known to be in heaven (Sainted)!
That the other of these two these predecessors is still living in this realm only means the rumors are malicious on their face, and can be discounted with extreme prejudice.
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commenter
Guest
Keep this in mind when you evaluate future articles from this website.That the other of these two these predecessors is still living in this realm only means the rumors are malicious on their face, and can be discounted with extreme prejudice.
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pnewton
Guest
When I think of Pope Benedict, Summorum Pontificorum doesn’t make the top ten things I thing of about it him. The scope of it was narrow affecting a very small percentage of Catholics.It would be an incredibly insulting, damaging act to undo a signature act of his immediate predecessor.
A
Augustinian
Guest
Good point , if it wasn’t for the internet I would have never remembered it came down. For most people, it really had zero impact on themThe scope of it was narrow affecting a very small percentage of Catholics.
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stpurl
Guest
It’s only been 10 years. The Church’s time runs in millennia. And let’s give the people a chance to let it affect them. I know it’s hard, but let’s imagine that the Catholic in the pew in 1956 had never seen or heard of a vernacular Mass and that the ones who wanted to explore the topic were told ‘it’s never gonna happen’, or were outright forbidden to attend ones that were sanctioned by the Church because their bishop didn’t even want to have them around. Just how many people who had been accustomed to the "Latin Mass’ then do you think would have been interested in a vernacular Mass? Yeah, that’s right. The average Catholic who had been accustomed most of his life to the Latin Mass and who had little to no opportunity to attend a vernacular Mass which he was told was ‘perfectly valid and acceptable’ yet his priests and bishops sneered at it, derided it and its followers, said it was inferior or only for losers, is going to take the time and trouble to attend that Mass anyway.
Because that is exactly the way that the EF is ‘presented’ to the average U.S. Catholic --as some sort of inferior, less than useful, unnecessary, outright WRONG that only the crazies and losers would be interested in.
And it takes a very strong-minded person to fight against that kind of perception from the very people who are supposed to help him or her with the Catholic faith, and to persevere in an atmosphere of sneering contempt at best and outright hostility and venom at worst.
Because that is exactly the way that the EF is ‘presented’ to the average U.S. Catholic --as some sort of inferior, less than useful, unnecessary, outright WRONG that only the crazies and losers would be interested in.
And it takes a very strong-minded person to fight against that kind of perception from the very people who are supposed to help him or her with the Catholic faith, and to persevere in an atmosphere of sneering contempt at best and outright hostility and venom at worst.
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