Francis to Abolish Summorum Pontificorum?

[OraLabora]

Actually, there has been a decline in Protestant church attendance since the 1960’s as well- and they always used the vernacular and didn’t have any changes at all as a result of the Vatican council.

Not directly, but in some cases indirectly, such as the Anglican Church of Canada’s « Book of Alternative Services ». It was at least partly influenced by Vatican II, and was not without its own controversies resembling a bit our own EF vs OF debate. It came out 10 years after the new Roman Missal and like it was the product of experimentation in the 60’s.

For those anti-EF folks arguing that the OF was a Protestant-influenced liturgy, in this case it appears to be the other way around, as the Book of Common Prayer is very close to the EF except for use of the vernacular.

 

[OraLabora]

When it appeared to some that the Church had rejected its own heritage and had embraced the vast majority of the secular and Protestant teachings, some felt they had ‘nowhere to go’.

Which « secular and Protestant teachings » specifically did the Church embrace?

As far as I can see, the pillars of Catholicism are still there, poor carechesis notwithstanding. The Sacraments, in particular the Eucharist. The Creed. The Virgin Birth and perpetual virginity of Mary. Just to name a few.

Sorry, I don’t see any “Protestant” dogmatic changes.

 

[stpurl]

That’s why I wrote ‘appeared to some’. I never said the Church did embrace secular and Protestant teachings. However, individuals within the Church did and do appear to accept secular views in some cases (from Catholics for Choice to those Catholics advocating not simply for responsible stewardship but for veganism and ZPG, to name a few things only which you will find preached over the last 40 years as ‘gospel’ in many parishes), as well as those who for example speak of Martin Luther as being ‘correct’ in his interpretations or those who offer communion to ‘all people’ and not to Catholics who should also be in a state of grace as well. . .
not to mention some who seem to put more emphasis on a subjective ‘quality of life’ but find abortion and euthanasia something that they ‘personally would not do’ but advocate its use ‘according to circumstance’. Again, I do not say the Church has embraced these, but many within the Church do, including clergy, and while that should not ever be an excuse to ‘leave the Church’, it did appear to some people more that the Church ‘left them’, or that it was swapped out for an institution that was pretty much ‘one of many’. . . indifferentism and relativism leading many to conclude that going to a service at St.Newbie which had the same format, gestures, words, vestments, and teachings as the service at the local United Church, or the First Baptist, or the Episcopal Church (and where the latter three had better music and better fellowship to boot) meant that there isn’t anything inherently different or better or necessary that the Catholic Church has to offer, plus ‘we’ have the ‘sex scandal’ to live down as well.

 

[commenter]

• The Church can handle different forms of the Latin Rite at the same time. Where I live, there are Eastern Catholic Churches with their own rites, they are fully compatible with the Catholic community.
• The OF will almost certainly be the majority form used in the Latin Rite for the foreseeable future.
• Catholic schools and religious education programs occasionally attend Eastern Rite Divine Liturgies, and some on occasion have an ecumenical speaker and service. There is no reason why they can’t have the EF once a year, with explanation. It seems ridiculous to exclude the EF, when the schools are constantly talking about diversity, celebrating ethnic “roots” and so on. Isn’t this more genuinely their “roots” than dressing in ethnic costumes?
• Parishes also talk about their “roots”. If they can hold ecumenical services, they certainly could offer the EF once a year, perhaps on their anniversary or patron’s feast day.
• The SSPX is more and more a separate denomination, with fewer people involved who had any prior involvement in the Catholic Church itself. This gradual transformation, year after year, is more significant than the annual press releases.

 

[Brendan]

There was no specific prohibition against offering both species. At a Wedding Mass, the married couple were often offered the chalice, in recognition of their role as Ministers of the Sacrament of Marriage.

In addition, both my parents received First Holy Communion via Intinction. This was in Ireland in the 30’s. They have also told me that Holy Communion was offered that way on Holy Thursday, in recognition of the establishment of the Sacrament of the Holy Eucharist.

 

[Augustinian]

If they can hold ecumenical services, they certainly could offer the EF once a year, perhaps on their anniversary or patron’s feast day.

I think the problem here is that the number of priests who are both competent in Latin and practiced in the rules for saying Latin mass isn’t that great in 2017.

 

[stpurl]

And why is that, I wonder, when priests who are to be ordained are supposed to be fluent and capable in Latin?

It really is not that huge a deal, although from the wails and moans one would think we’re expecting priests to be able to deliver whole memorized passages from Cicero, to give master degree theses in Latin, and to perform a professionally choreographed routine capable of appearing on Broadway, in order to be considered capable of saying a Mass in the EF.

Priests go off to the missions. . .or to the inner cities. . .and learn how to say Mass in Spanish, French, Portuguese. . .as well as Korean, Japanese, or Swahili. . . they learn all sorts of customs among people whose lifestyles they knew nothing of, and which are incredibly ‘different’. . .and nobody bats an eye. . .

But 'Latin?" A rite which involves silence, careful movement, and attention? Something which their teachers even today knew themselves and were taught, but which they disliked and would rather not do as a choice because once it was ‘the norm’, and so it feels ‘forced’ on them (a wrong assumption but apparently painfully ‘present’ to many). Oh perish the thought.

Luckily the pendulum is starting to ‘swing back’. I believe the OF will always be with us, though it may one day be ‘extraordinary’ itself, but enriched through the EF. . .which is closer to the original aspirations of the council anyway.

 

[commenter]

I suspect it is growing.

 

[Augustinian]

I suspect it is growing.

Are there any statistics out there on this? Has the number of attendees at Latin Masses been rising over the years?

Do the sons and daughters of Lat(name removed by moderator)hile Catholics continue to support and attend Latin Mass when they move out of the nest and raise their own families? Even if and when they marry mainstream Catholic spouses?

 

[otjm]

Are you referring to the urban myths concerning how many up and left the Church with the introduction of the OF?

There is not one single study done, including by CARA, showing any such event. The loss of Catholics" in the pew" has been gradual since the late 1950’s, at or near 1% per year and appears to have leveled off. Statistics high in the 1950’s are variously stated as in the low 70’s to high to mid 60’s (CARA) and have moved to the low 20’s as a percentage of Catholics attending Mass weekly, out of all Catholics. That is a 40%+ to a 50%+ drop over 60 years.

And if you actually speak with Catholics who now attend Protestant churches, you will find a plethora of answers, including at their base something between very poor and exceedingly poor catechesis when young, and the added issues of parents not attending regularly, and marrying a Protestant spouse. Believe me; I have first hand experience of the matter with 6 out of 11 cousins on one side of my family. And beyond that, 15 years of Catholics Returning Home.

I have yet to meet a single person who left the Church over the vernacular. None.

 

[otjm]

I don’t know of anyone anywhere who has much information on the SSPX adherents. In part, that may be to the attitude of isolation which seems to permeate them; in part it may be that the SSPX themselves have this information, but have no reason to promulgate it.

From the few individuals I have known, and from the comments I have read over the decades, either by the SSPX clergy or supporters, the people attracted to them are somewhere between very conservative and ultra conservative and some appear to be particularly attracted to conspiracy theories.

Nor have I seen any information as to how they “recruit” individuals. One of the individuals was a member of my parish, a coach and teacher. I realized, when I ran into him one day, that I had not seen him in quite some time. As soon as we started talking, he started in with the (garbage) espoused by the SSPX. I have to admit I stood there with my mouth open. That was probably about 15 years ago. No clue as to how he hooked up with them; my guess was through the internet.

 

[OraLabora]

Apart from poor catechesis, which is the Church’s responsibility, the problems you cite are more the general rebelliousness of the era. The same thing happened on the Protestant side. Their difference is that many of the mainstream Protestant denominations adapted themselves to the changing times and adapting some practices like same-sex “marriage”.

While individual clergy members may have done so in the Catholic Church, the Church as a whole has not adapted her dogmas to these ideas. And that’s to her credit, she has held fast against popular trends, to the point of being treated with derision or worse by the media, social liberals, etc.

If anything social media is making it far too easy to fall prey to strange ideas even within the Church. The Church can do nothing more than try to hold fast to her dogmas while reaching out in love to the lost sheep in the hopes of bringing them home.

Reading St. Paul’s Epistles make it clear, nothing really much has change in 2000 years except the speed at which we can self-destruct.

 

[commenter]

I was referring to the numbers of priests ready to offer the EF. It is likely growing due to high ordinations at fssp and others.

 

[Augustinian]

I was referring to the numbers of priests ready to offer the EF. It is likely growing due to high ordinations at fssp and others.

There a total of 129 FSSP seminarians, the total number of all Catholic seminarians worldwide is 118,000, That’s only 1/10th of 1% of the total.

Although I think looking at the faithful is the key anyhow. If not so many people want to assist at Latin Mass, there won’t be that many offered regardless of how many are ready.

 

[2towers]

well…if it can be taken away then. … it can be bought back by someone else!

 

[otjm]

The two predominate communities in the Archdiocese of Portland beyond native English speakers are the Hispanic and the Vietnamese.

Yes, Rome has stated that Latin is to be taught; and I suspect that Rome is not naive that Latin may or (more likely) may not be taught to seminarians.

On the other hand, as to the two other communities, the Vietnamese seem to have a higher proportion of their population being ordained, and I know one priest who had all three communities in his parish. He flat out hit the wall with trying to say Mass in Vietnamese. He did say Mass in Spanish, including his homilies, and considered himself “somewhat fluent” in it.

And there are far, far more Masses said in Spanish than there are in Latin in this diocese. Given the number of Hispanics in the US who may be first generation, or second generation and yet reasonably fluent in Spanish, where is a seminary responsibly to put its efforts? and please, don’t pass this off as “Well, if you know Lating, you will easily get Spanish”.

I don’t take Rome to be naive as to what is happening in seminaries. If they feel a need to correct it, they have ample ability to do so. And it is patently clear they are not doing so.

If you have one onehundredth of one percent (0.01%) of your population which wants the EF, and 20 to 30% wants the Mass in Spanish, where will you put your efforts and education? It ain’t gonna be in Latin.

You are clearly one of the “true believers” about the EF coming back. Never mind what I wrote about the number of parishes which have some EF Mass offered at some time. There are parishes which have two or more Masses on Sunday and weekday Masses; if you want a count I will provide it. It is a minimal part of all the parishes in the US; minimal being 62 parishes out of the total in the US of 17,290+/-. That works out to less than 1/2 of 1% of all parishes in the US; actually to 0.3586%

As a percentage of all parishes which currently have a weekly Sunday EF, it is 25%.

And that is after 10 years. The reality is the EF is going to continue to be the unusual, and the OF is going to be the usual. If we add the 57 parishes which have had an EF and have discontinued it (with no note of it being transferred) and ignoring the parishes which no longer have the EF, but it was transferred to another parish, that is a loss of 9.421% of parishes that started to have an EF and dropped it. Or close to 1% per year start and stop.

The short of it is that the EF has pretty much reached stasis; and there is no current evidence whatsoever of it growing substantially. It meets the needs of a very minor part of the population. That is good; but there is nothing to indicate there is any likelihood of anything of significant growth.growth.

 

[otjm]

The FSSP currently has 135 seminarians world wide. As seminaries always have some attrition due to either the candidate, or the Church, or both deciding that is not their vocation, many to most will eventually be ordained. but likely not all. And as they serve world wide, there is no indication they will be serving to any particular extent in the US beyond what they currently do.

I seem to recall that some years ago there was a bit of a dustup within the FSSP concerning whether or not they could say the OF. My recollection was that Rome said they had no ability to prevent their priests from saying the OF.

Assuming for the moment that the above is correct, I would also presume that their priority would be to serve in parishes which are devoted to the EF (at least primarily) While that might mean that they come to a diocese which already has a parish with several EF Masses (and possibly some OF Masses), the likelihood is that they would be put in parishes such as these which currently have a diocesan priest, who could them be stationed in an OF parish. The simple availability of an FSSP priest is not likely to have any impact on the number of people who wish to have an EF Mass in a parish which is OF now.

The simple availability of FSSP priests is not going to convert an OF parish to an EF parish. And if it is an OF parish which wants to add an EF Mass, I would think the FSSP would rather put their efforts elsewhere, given their world wide mission.

Interestingly, in all of the dioceses listed as having the EF (per Coalition in Support of ECClesia Dei), only one has two parishes in the same city having more than one Sunday Mass regularly; that is in Massachusetts, Worcester diocese, Still River; One noted as St Ann House and the other as St. Benedict Center.

As some dioceses have been down sizing in their large cities and closing some parishes, it is possible that the FFSP might be brought in to take over a closed parish church and start having multiple Sunday EF Masses; but that wold also entail stopping some fo the parishes in the city from the one they have and telling those attached to the EF to go to the now EF Parish.

There have been threads concerning the angst parishioners go through when their parish closes. Whether this scenario would work or not is up to question, because it would require people people to go longer distances. Some might, some might not.

Unless there is a sizable number of people willing to do so, it is unlikely the FSSP would be administering the parish, and it would remain closed.

 

[otjm]

None that I am aware of. I would be interested to see if there are any.

I have no idea if CARA has done any research on this; and if they have, one would have to pay for a copy as they do not release all their studies gratis.

 

[ProVobis]

Maybe not the sole reason but when one sees the Protestant service as familiar and the people there are warm to him, then all those old Examination of Conscience questions about “Have you ever attended a non-Catholic Mass?” (or however it was phrased) may not be taken that seriously. But I don’t know this as a fact; I’ve only attended one Lutheran service and it was a memorial for my niece. I saw quite a few ex-Catholics there.

 

[Augustinian]

I’ve only attended one Lutheran service and it was a memorial for my niece. I saw quite a few ex-Catholics there.

Lutheranism has been in decline over the past 50 years here in America, but a lot of protestant denominations have gone downhill as far as membership. I suppose they’d be even worse off without ex Catholics.