P
ProVobis
Guest
Not every time and in every place, but I would think you of all people could make a case that the pipe organ and Gregorian chant would be the default, having had so many bishops overwhelmingly approve that document.
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P
ProVobis
Guest
Bogus argument IMO because hardly anyone attending the Latin Mass speaks the language fluently.
O
otjm
Guest
I don’t question that. That, however, does not show an intent that there permanently be two forms of the rite; it appears far more likely it was intended to last only for a period of time of transition. Paul 6th was the first pope to ahve to deal with Lefbrvre, and accounts are that it was rocky. The final act of ordaining bishops occurred later; but the tenor of the Archbishop’s reactions to Vatican 2 was already at play. What, if anything that had to do with the indult I will leave to historians, should there be any written or recorded memos.
In any event, back to the OP’s question; I regard it at the very best to be minimally within a possibility that Pope Francis would abrogate the current permission while Pope Benedict is alive; and hardly within the realm of possibilities that he would eliminate it after Pope Benedict’s death. I think OraLabora more likely describes what may happen - some clarification to some vague points, and specifically what constitutes a "stable group’.
In any event, back to the OP’s question; I regard it at the very best to be minimally within a possibility that Pope Francis would abrogate the current permission while Pope Benedict is alive; and hardly within the realm of possibilities that he would eliminate it after Pope Benedict’s death. I think OraLabora more likely describes what may happen - some clarification to some vague points, and specifically what constitutes a "stable group’.
O
OraLabora
Guest
I wish it were so, but I’m realistic. And since I have the option to attend Mass every week where the pipe organ and Gregorian chant are the default (in the Ordinary Form), perhaps I’m a little less in a hurry to see it everywhere. In any event, for our schola, Gregorian chant and the pipe organ are our default, it’s our raison d’être (one of our choristers is also an excellent organist so he plays a prelude, offertory and postlude at the Masses we sing at).
But rather than stick to one parish we’re trying to “spread the word” by singing in different parishes every month (plus a couple of recitals for the “unchurched”). So at least I can say, if it doesn’t become the default, it wasn’t because we didn’t try. So far though, no joy. Instead of seeing the spread of chant everywhere, we instead created groupies (I kid you not) that follow us around and try to attend Mass where they know we’ll be singing.
But rather than stick to one parish we’re trying to “spread the word” by singing in different parishes every month (plus a couple of recitals for the “unchurched”). So at least I can say, if it doesn’t become the default, it wasn’t because we didn’t try. So far though, no joy. Instead of seeing the spread of chant everywhere, we instead created groupies (I kid you not) that follow us around and try to attend Mass where they know we’ll be singing.
O
otjm
Guest
I think there were some who were hoping for a revival of Gregorian chant. My recollection (and I will bow to OraLabora) is that while it had not faded from view, it was making a good appearance of fading away.
But done properly requires a serious amount of work; it is not something a congregation can do anything but mangle; and I have heard at least one choir 2 years ago who would get at best a D- from a monk I knew about 50 years ago. They were an embarrassment to anyone who knows a minimal amount about chant, and they seemed pretty happy with themselves. Something about the blind leading the blind…
But done properly requires a serious amount of work; it is not something a congregation can do anything but mangle; and I have heard at least one choir 2 years ago who would get at best a D- from a monk I knew about 50 years ago. They were an embarrassment to anyone who knows a minimal amount about chant, and they seemed pretty happy with themselves. Something about the blind leading the blind…
O
OraLabora
Guest
Correct; chant is exceedingly rare in Quebec now. There are two monasteries (one of men, one of women) that use it daily, and about 4 scholas/choirs that I know of that do it, all in small cities or Montreal. Quite proficiently I might add, but as you note, it takes LOTS of work, especially for the Propers. Most of our choristers have many years of experience (15 for myself); newbies are told basically to lip synch at Mass (but not at rehearsals), until they start to get the hang of it. I’m sort of the informal novice master, the choirmaster likes to put newbies next to me so I can coach them, explain things, and provide a steady on-pitch voice to hitch onto.
The faithful can handle the simpler or better-known settings of the Ordinary (Kyrie XVI, Sanctus/Agnus XVIII, Gloria VIII or XV for example) with some coaching but beyond that, forget about it! Even the Graduale Simplex antiphons, designed for less experienced choirs, would require some work.
To put it plainly, in the small rural parish where I live… ain’t gonna happen anytime soon unless we expand our road show to take in this parish once in a while. A bit of a problem as the parish is 90 km away from where our schola is based. Every time I sing in the schola, it’s 2 hours of driving when the weather is good, and bringing the entire schola here would be a logistical problem as our choir master and a couple of choristers don’t drive.
The faithful can handle the simpler or better-known settings of the Ordinary (Kyrie XVI, Sanctus/Agnus XVIII, Gloria VIII or XV for example) with some coaching but beyond that, forget about it! Even the Graduale Simplex antiphons, designed for less experienced choirs, would require some work.
To put it plainly, in the small rural parish where I live… ain’t gonna happen anytime soon unless we expand our road show to take in this parish once in a while. A bit of a problem as the parish is 90 km away from where our schola is based. Every time I sing in the schola, it’s 2 hours of driving when the weather is good, and bringing the entire schola here would be a logistical problem as our choir master and a couple of choristers don’t drive.
P
ProVobis
Guest
I believe Jubilate Deo specifically addressed this issue. And it was to be distributed FREE OF CHARGE to EVERY parish.The faithful can handle the simpler or better-known settings of the Ordinary (Kyrie XVI, Sanctus/Agnus XVIII, Gloria VIII or XV for example) with some coaching
O
otjm
Guest
You really need to get off your soap box. I do flat out deny there is suppression of the EF. Summorum Pontificum specifically sets out the proccess by which a stable group may request the EF. If the parish priest cannot accomodate them (and he specifically does not have to be the one to say the EF, by SP) then appeal is to be made to the bishop, and then it specifically sets out how the appeal can be made to Rome.
I have not said (nor anyone else in this thread) that the EF is a threat to or competition with the OF, or to be feared… Let’s knock off the straw men comments.
As to your comment about the document on the liturgy, any clear reading indicates the rite was to be modified (and it was). Had they wanted two forms it would have come up. It didn’t. Not only it didn’t, but Paul 6th (who was at the center of the issue) only made it available by indult; and that speaks volumes.
The growth has been slow; so the charge comes back “It is being suppressed!”. But SP provides the means to stop that suppression, “it has only been ten years!” And how long have we had the internet, and YouTube, and FaceBook, and all the instantaneous communications we now have?
I am not mad at you. I presume you attend the EF, and I am glad it is available to you. I grew up on the EF. And I also have watched, since before SP was issued; and I have listened to those who prefer it; and I have repeatedly noted that its growth has been slow and appears at stasis. At my age, I probably don’t have 20 years to watch it; but I watch, and periodically I get into these conversations by bringing facts to the table, and uniformly people get upset with the facts.
My background includes having been an attorney. And attorneys deal in facts. I am not trying to insult you or demean you; but the facts are there are few out of all practicing Catholics who want the EF, and that gives no appearance of change.
God bless.
I have not said (nor anyone else in this thread) that the EF is a threat to or competition with the OF, or to be feared… Let’s knock off the straw men comments.
As to your comment about the document on the liturgy, any clear reading indicates the rite was to be modified (and it was). Had they wanted two forms it would have come up. It didn’t. Not only it didn’t, but Paul 6th (who was at the center of the issue) only made it available by indult; and that speaks volumes.
The growth has been slow; so the charge comes back “It is being suppressed!”. But SP provides the means to stop that suppression, “it has only been ten years!” And how long have we had the internet, and YouTube, and FaceBook, and all the instantaneous communications we now have?
I am not mad at you. I presume you attend the EF, and I am glad it is available to you. I grew up on the EF. And I also have watched, since before SP was issued; and I have listened to those who prefer it; and I have repeatedly noted that its growth has been slow and appears at stasis. At my age, I probably don’t have 20 years to watch it; but I watch, and periodically I get into these conversations by bringing facts to the table, and uniformly people get upset with the facts.
My background includes having been an attorney. And attorneys deal in facts. I am not trying to insult you or demean you; but the facts are there are few out of all practicing Catholics who want the EF, and that gives no appearance of change.
God bless.
O
otjm
Guest
I attended Midnight Mass at Our Lady of Guadalupe abbey a week ago. A little over 50 years ago, when I was still exploring vocations, I spoke with one of the monks concerning what they looked for in a candidate. His response was that one had to be able to sing (he was pretty emphatic). The abbey had somewhere between 40 and 50 monks, and were still chanting the Office in Gregorian Chant, in Latin.
Sadly, they are now down to about 24 monks, and if I were to take a WAG, the average age might be 75; I think there are three professed and one other under the age of 50.
They now do plain chant, and due to age, have nowhere near the musical ability they once had.
Then, again, the life of a Trappist is not exactly alluring to most who may have a vocation. The abbey in Utah is closed, due to advanced age, serious health problems among the 10 remaining (if they are all still alive; 6 were in advanced care a year or so ago), and I have serious concerns long term for the local one. I have not been to Mt. Angle, but the last time I was there, the Office was in English with plain chant.
And so it goes.
Sadly, they are now down to about 24 monks, and if I were to take a WAG, the average age might be 75; I think there are three professed and one other under the age of 50.
They now do plain chant, and due to age, have nowhere near the musical ability they once had.
Then, again, the life of a Trappist is not exactly alluring to most who may have a vocation. The abbey in Utah is closed, due to advanced age, serious health problems among the 10 remaining (if they are all still alive; 6 were in advanced care a year or so ago), and I have serious concerns long term for the local one. I have not been to Mt. Angle, but the last time I was there, the Office was in English with plain chant.
And so it goes.
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R
Randolph
Guest
None taken. Let’s move on while charity is still intact.
God bless…
God bless…
O
OraLabora
Guest
The situation at our abbey is similar. When I joined as oblate-novice in 2002, there were around 40 monks in choir, with a couple out of the monastery for various reasons (chaplain to nuns, assisted living facility, on assignment in Rome).
The average age is now 70, and there are, on a good day, 27 in choir and one of those is iffy and presently in hospital and may never return; he’s over 90!!! They still do Gregorian chant, but the choirmaster has wisely put together a booklet of simplified Mass chants for various occasions (seasons, commons, proper feasts for the monastery/diocese/country). They are still drawn from the Graduale Romanum, but the simpler introits, graduals, etc. are used. Mostly at weekday Masses, occasionally on Sundays if the schola is not at full strength. Last winter, a flu outbreak really messed up with the chant.
For the Office, other than Lauds and Vespers and the hymns at the other hours, all is in French, recto-tono or simple melodies (for Compline). The schola still sings well, but the community less so. One side of the choir is very weak. It’s the choirmaster’s side, and his voice dominates(he’s in his early 60s, close to my vintage, I turn 60 in June).
Normally they never encouraged oblates to sing because few did it well enough, in fact they actively discouraged us. I usually attend weekday Mass there on Wednesdays when I volunteer at the abbey library; so I get to hear the “simplified” chants from the in-house book fairly often. Well, a couple of weeks before Christmas the choirmaster bumped into me and gave me a copy. Clearly he was not trying to discourage me from singing, and I took it as a subtle sign that they need all the help they can get, even from an amateur like myself.
So to my previous comment about stepping up to the plate (for those who want chant), I should probably add: pray for vocations! Monasteries, especially of the Solesmes Congregation, have always held chant in special esteem, and they have been the predominant places in which chant could not only be heard, but also for Gregorian chant scholarship. The recordings from Solesmes in particular have been very important for chant practice, and their palaeographic laboratory invaluable for scholarship and ongoing study of Gregorian chant.
Without vocations to sustain all this, chant will go downhill pretty fast. We won’t have a “standard” any longer on which to base ourselves, and chant will slowly denature into every individual choirmaster’s private interpretation of it. This happened once before, and the Vatican appointed Solesmes to correct the situation back in the 19th Century. The 1908 Vatican Edition of the Graduale Romanum was the result, and it still forms the foundation of the 1974 Graduale Romanum for the OF which for the most part has all the same chants except for new feasts added in the 20th century such as Christ the King.
The average age is now 70, and there are, on a good day, 27 in choir and one of those is iffy and presently in hospital and may never return; he’s over 90!!! They still do Gregorian chant, but the choirmaster has wisely put together a booklet of simplified Mass chants for various occasions (seasons, commons, proper feasts for the monastery/diocese/country). They are still drawn from the Graduale Romanum, but the simpler introits, graduals, etc. are used. Mostly at weekday Masses, occasionally on Sundays if the schola is not at full strength. Last winter, a flu outbreak really messed up with the chant.
For the Office, other than Lauds and Vespers and the hymns at the other hours, all is in French, recto-tono or simple melodies (for Compline). The schola still sings well, but the community less so. One side of the choir is very weak. It’s the choirmaster’s side, and his voice dominates(he’s in his early 60s, close to my vintage, I turn 60 in June).
Normally they never encouraged oblates to sing because few did it well enough, in fact they actively discouraged us. I usually attend weekday Mass there on Wednesdays when I volunteer at the abbey library; so I get to hear the “simplified” chants from the in-house book fairly often. Well, a couple of weeks before Christmas the choirmaster bumped into me and gave me a copy. Clearly he was not trying to discourage me from singing, and I took it as a subtle sign that they need all the help they can get, even from an amateur like myself.
So to my previous comment about stepping up to the plate (for those who want chant), I should probably add: pray for vocations! Monasteries, especially of the Solesmes Congregation, have always held chant in special esteem, and they have been the predominant places in which chant could not only be heard, but also for Gregorian chant scholarship. The recordings from Solesmes in particular have been very important for chant practice, and their palaeographic laboratory invaluable for scholarship and ongoing study of Gregorian chant.
Without vocations to sustain all this, chant will go downhill pretty fast. We won’t have a “standard” any longer on which to base ourselves, and chant will slowly denature into every individual choirmaster’s private interpretation of it. This happened once before, and the Vatican appointed Solesmes to correct the situation back in the 19th Century. The 1908 Vatican Edition of the Graduale Romanum was the result, and it still forms the foundation of the 1974 Graduale Romanum for the OF which for the most part has all the same chants except for new feasts added in the 20th century such as Christ the King.
S
Spyridon
Guest
LOL.we instead created groupies (I kid you not)
Gregorian chant groupies! Hahah
O
OraLabora
Guest
It is pretty funny, but at the same time serious but in a good way. One of them, a provincial police constable, was so inspired it reinvigorated his faith and he went on to become a permanent deacon. When he was on duty, he’d try to pop into one of our Masses, in uniform, to hear us.LOL.
Gregorian chant groupies! Hahah
C
commenter
Guest
I hesitate to guess the intent of people making decisions now, let alone those who died long ago. Regardless, the Council Fathers could not have foreseen that some people who had not grown up with the TLM might, in the future, like it. Pope Benedict is one of the rare survivors who was at that Council. He seems to regard expansion of the Latin Mass as not inconsistent with the Council.I don’t question that. That, however, does not show an intent that there permanently be two forms of the rite; it appears far more likely it was intended to last only for a period of time of transition
Arguments about numbers are meaningless unless you keep in mind 99% of younger people are not exposed to the TLM. You can’t say “it hasn’t caught on yet” when the vast majority have not really heard of it. What is known is that of the tiny minority that are exposed to it, a surprising number seem to like it, without any rejection of the OF.
To repeat, if 10 out of 1000 Catholics accept the EF, that is only 1%. But if only 20 out of that 1000 have been exposed to it, and 10 of those 20 like it, that is a very good percentage (50%) . It suggests exposing more young Catholics to it would be a good idea.
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otjm
Guest
Unless and until someone actually does a survey, all the talk about how many young people want the EF, love the EF, or are interested in the EF is pure unadulterated speculation.
And it would not be all that complicated to accomplish (except for time and distance); one would only need to gp tp those parishes which have both the EF and the OF and do a nose count - after defining what “young” consists of, so the count is consistent.
The same could be said for anyone older than the “young” category.
In cities with more than one parish within the city boundaries, for the most part there is ony one parish which has the EF on Sunday. The few cities include Houston, Philadelphia, San Francisco (3, one with 2 on Sunday and 2 with one 5 p.m. Mass), Jacksonville, Still River, Detroit, Kansas City, Manhattan, Cincinnati, Cleveland, Tulsa and Portland. And it is well known that those Masses draw from across the city from other parishes.
There have been comments in the past about Standing Room Only, none of which say how many were attending, and none of which allude to a parish which has had the EF for a long time - each such comment has been about a new Parish startiong to present the EF.
By all rights of what you say, the Ef should be growing, if not rapidly, certainly faster than it has. And certainly, one would think that there would be reports of how many come to the EF in that parish, compared to how many parishioners there are in the parish.
Let me give an example, and I will follow up with this question myself.
Near me (within about a 45 minute drive of where I have lived for about 38 years) is a parish with 3,000 families, Families, not parishioners. They have 3 OF Masses in English, 2 OF Masses in Spanish, and one OF Mass in Vietnamese; and one EF Mass. I will inquire, as the pastor was one of my classmates when I was in college seminary.
I will get back to you.
Perhaps there is someone out there who is actually making or has made such a survey; As CARA does not publish their surveys I will inquire there too.
And by the way, stating numbers is not arguing. It is providing perspective.
Irt also helps to keep in mind that any Pope is dealing with the world, not the US; so Pope Benedict’s comments cannot in any way be presumed to reflect what is going on in the US unless they are specific to that. “Youth” may be a response in Europe, for all we know; and given that on average it appears that about 5%of Catholics attend Mass in many if not most Catholic European countries, what is occurring there may or may not have any relevance to what occurs in the US.
And it would not be all that complicated to accomplish (except for time and distance); one would only need to gp tp those parishes which have both the EF and the OF and do a nose count - after defining what “young” consists of, so the count is consistent.
The same could be said for anyone older than the “young” category.
In cities with more than one parish within the city boundaries, for the most part there is ony one parish which has the EF on Sunday. The few cities include Houston, Philadelphia, San Francisco (3, one with 2 on Sunday and 2 with one 5 p.m. Mass), Jacksonville, Still River, Detroit, Kansas City, Manhattan, Cincinnati, Cleveland, Tulsa and Portland. And it is well known that those Masses draw from across the city from other parishes.
There have been comments in the past about Standing Room Only, none of which say how many were attending, and none of which allude to a parish which has had the EF for a long time - each such comment has been about a new Parish startiong to present the EF.
By all rights of what you say, the Ef should be growing, if not rapidly, certainly faster than it has. And certainly, one would think that there would be reports of how many come to the EF in that parish, compared to how many parishioners there are in the parish.
Let me give an example, and I will follow up with this question myself.
Near me (within about a 45 minute drive of where I have lived for about 38 years) is a parish with 3,000 families, Families, not parishioners. They have 3 OF Masses in English, 2 OF Masses in Spanish, and one OF Mass in Vietnamese; and one EF Mass. I will inquire, as the pastor was one of my classmates when I was in college seminary.
I will get back to you.
Perhaps there is someone out there who is actually making or has made such a survey; As CARA does not publish their surveys I will inquire there too.
And by the way, stating numbers is not arguing. It is providing perspective.
Irt also helps to keep in mind that any Pope is dealing with the world, not the US; so Pope Benedict’s comments cannot in any way be presumed to reflect what is going on in the US unless they are specific to that. “Youth” may be a response in Europe, for all we know; and given that on average it appears that about 5%of Catholics attend Mass in many if not most Catholic European countries, what is occurring there may or may not have any relevance to what occurs in the US.
O
otjm
Guest
And since you keep repeating your “10 out of 20”, I will repeat that the youth today are the most facile with electronic communications and the most able to recruit and/or spread the work about the EF, I am waiting to see actual results.
You are the one saying "What is known is that of the tiny minority that are exposed to it, a surprising number seem to like it, " and I await actual numbers.
It may well be true; but it also can have the validity of comments in the past proposing that the EF was spreading like wildfire: the actual numbers showed that to be hyperbole in the extreme.
I am not in the least opposed to the EF, nor am I opposed to the spread of it. I have the EF available to me for those times I choose to participate in it.
Personally, I will avoid any Mass in which a choir of professional singers presents a Mass from Palestrina (and I have attended those too) as I do not want to go to a Mass with what I perceive to be a concert. That is just my personal opinion; however in the past when it was available I would take those who had recently joined the Church to Mass there, and without a single personal comment from me. I have far more respect for others’ spirituality, be it OF, EF, Ruthenian Rite (Portland) or Maronite Rite (Portland) or any other recognized form of the Mass. Don’t make the presumption that when I quote numbers, I am against something.
You are the one saying "What is known is that of the tiny minority that are exposed to it, a surprising number seem to like it, " and I await actual numbers.
It may well be true; but it also can have the validity of comments in the past proposing that the EF was spreading like wildfire: the actual numbers showed that to be hyperbole in the extreme.
I am not in the least opposed to the EF, nor am I opposed to the spread of it. I have the EF available to me for those times I choose to participate in it.
Personally, I will avoid any Mass in which a choir of professional singers presents a Mass from Palestrina (and I have attended those too) as I do not want to go to a Mass with what I perceive to be a concert. That is just my personal opinion; however in the past when it was available I would take those who had recently joined the Church to Mass there, and without a single personal comment from me. I have far more respect for others’ spirituality, be it OF, EF, Ruthenian Rite (Portland) or Maronite Rite (Portland) or any other recognized form of the Mass. Don’t make the presumption that when I quote numbers, I am against something.
P
ProVobis
Guest
It may very well seem like a concert, but didn’t composers such as Palestrina, Bach, Mozart, et al write for the glory of God and therefore music suitable for His worship? Not to mention passing the test of time.Personally, I will avoid any Mass in which a choir of professional singers presents a Mass from Palestrina (and I have attended those too) as I do not want to go to a Mass with what I perceive to be a concert.
As to professional, I doubt if the money is all that great.
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S
stpurl
Guest
I’m delighted that you have the opportunity to attend the EF. Many don’t.
In the entire state of Vermont, there exist exactly two places where the EF is offered.
One place is in the largest city of Burlington. The other is in Bradford, pretty much due east. Burlington is on the west, bordered by Lake Champlain. Both are located in the northern one-third of the state. The Northwest has a few not too small towns, the Northeast (known as the Northeast Kingdom) is sparsely populated.
Vermont is about 200 miles 'north to south. So people in the towns that are most southerly (Bennington in the west, Brattleboro in the east) would have to travel a distance of about 150 miles (each way) to attend Mass.
Many people live in areas where the joke is ‘you can’t get there from here’, meaning that they not only can’t take a ‘straight line’ to get from one place to another, they often have to strike out for many miles north, south, east or west before even TRYING to go to either Burlington or Bradford. Often the roads are unpaved. Often they are snow-covered as well.
If the EF were to be offered as well in places like Montpelier (the state capital, 35 miles south of Burlington ), Rutland in the center, Bennington and Brattleboro, we might see quite a jump in attendance, as they all have Catholic schools in the area.’
Did I mention that there currently is no direct bus transportation from southern to northern cities, and the two Amtrak routes terminate in Rutland and in St. Albans? Plus, weekend travel is near non-existent.
Is there interest? Yes, there is, but it is stifled from the get-go, from some priests ( “We HAVE it available in Burlington, if you don’t CHOOSE to go then I guess you don’t really want it”), to laity who are die-hard members of the “I never want to hear Latin” club who exaggerate the supposed difficulties in comprehension and maximize the ‘beauty’ of the OF and 'bloom where you’re planted, especially since most of you are planted well away from any EF." But even with the not-so-subtle denigration, among Catholics who hear anything even remotely ‘not negative’ (let alone positive) about the EF, they are curious and certainly willing, if not eager, to experience it. I don’t know much about your socioeconomic status, but I do know that if a person does not have much in the way of disposable income, and has to contend with huge fuel bills and housing costs (rent or buy), extremely high food costs, and fluctuating but never really cheap gas prices, that person might be interested in attending the EF but it’s going to be out of reach for them. (and that same person might be interested in attending many other things but find those out of reach as well). If there are only two places in the entire STATE and you’re 150, or even 100, or 50, miles from them, they might as well be on the moon.
In the entire state of Vermont, there exist exactly two places where the EF is offered.
One place is in the largest city of Burlington. The other is in Bradford, pretty much due east. Burlington is on the west, bordered by Lake Champlain. Both are located in the northern one-third of the state. The Northwest has a few not too small towns, the Northeast (known as the Northeast Kingdom) is sparsely populated.
Vermont is about 200 miles 'north to south. So people in the towns that are most southerly (Bennington in the west, Brattleboro in the east) would have to travel a distance of about 150 miles (each way) to attend Mass.
Many people live in areas where the joke is ‘you can’t get there from here’, meaning that they not only can’t take a ‘straight line’ to get from one place to another, they often have to strike out for many miles north, south, east or west before even TRYING to go to either Burlington or Bradford. Often the roads are unpaved. Often they are snow-covered as well.
If the EF were to be offered as well in places like Montpelier (the state capital, 35 miles south of Burlington ), Rutland in the center, Bennington and Brattleboro, we might see quite a jump in attendance, as they all have Catholic schools in the area.’
Did I mention that there currently is no direct bus transportation from southern to northern cities, and the two Amtrak routes terminate in Rutland and in St. Albans? Plus, weekend travel is near non-existent.
Is there interest? Yes, there is, but it is stifled from the get-go, from some priests ( “We HAVE it available in Burlington, if you don’t CHOOSE to go then I guess you don’t really want it”), to laity who are die-hard members of the “I never want to hear Latin” club who exaggerate the supposed difficulties in comprehension and maximize the ‘beauty’ of the OF and 'bloom where you’re planted, especially since most of you are planted well away from any EF." But even with the not-so-subtle denigration, among Catholics who hear anything even remotely ‘not negative’ (let alone positive) about the EF, they are curious and certainly willing, if not eager, to experience it. I don’t know much about your socioeconomic status, but I do know that if a person does not have much in the way of disposable income, and has to contend with huge fuel bills and housing costs (rent or buy), extremely high food costs, and fluctuating but never really cheap gas prices, that person might be interested in attending the EF but it’s going to be out of reach for them. (and that same person might be interested in attending many other things but find those out of reach as well). If there are only two places in the entire STATE and you’re 150, or even 100, or 50, miles from them, they might as well be on the moon.
A
Augustinian
Guest
Are there Latin Masses being offered across the state line in NH or NY, that might be more convenient to some Vermontites?If the EF were to be offered as well in places like Montpelier (the state capital, 35 miles south of Burlington ), Rutland in the center, Bennington and Brattleboro, we might see quite a jump in attendance
2 Latin Mass sites for a diocese with only 118,000 doesn’t seem like that few. The Pittsburgh diocese has more than 5 times as many Catholics and only one Latin Mass parish.
O
OraLabora
Guest
Indeed. The Archdiocese of Quebec has over 1 million Catholics in its jurisdiction… and only 1 EF Mass (offered by the FSSP); 2 for 118k seems like luxury! The Archdiocese of Montreal has 2 listed, for a population of 1.6 million.2 Latin Mass sites for a diocese with only 118,000 doesn’t seem like that few.
But they aren’t the only places where Gregorian chant is used as there are scholas in Montreal and Quebec City, and a couple of Benedictine abbeys in the province as well, that use chant for the OF.
The Archdiocese of Sherbrooke, where our schola is based (I live in a neighbouring diocese), has 1 for 300k Catholics, and I believe it is a former indult parish where a very traditionalist families have established a traditional Catholic community,
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