Francis to Abolish Summorum Pontificorum?

[Augustinian]

Of course, Pittsburgh’s population is a lot more dense than that in the state of Vermont. But I don’t see it as really that popular here.

The location here is right off the Interstate, I don’'t know how many people it attracts. But they do publish the offerings and it was $4800 for the 4th Sunday of Advent. Not a lot of money, and it would indicate not that many people at the 2 Sunday masses.

 

[stpurl]

or the stereotypical Catholic who puts $1 in the collection plate.

 

[Augustinian]

or the stereotypical Catholic who puts $1 in the collection plate.

I was looking more at the financial reports from other parishes. The Latin Mass folks share space with Holy Wisdom parish which is a pretty down-on-its-luck and thinly populated part of Pittsburgh- Spring Hill, City View, part of the Spring Garden Valley- very low brow, sketchy poverty area. Yet, they don’t collect much more than that parish in spite of attracting people from all over the diocese. I don’t know if being a tightwad is “traditional”

 

[otjm]

By professional, I mean the have no one who does not have voice training. I have no idea that the schola locally were paid to sing at Mass; but listening to them, they were more than just your average weekly choir, who vary from "can “arry a note in a washtub if it has a lid” to “have had voice training”.

God spare us from a choir who cannot perform Palestrina as intended by Palestrina… That would be complicated music done in… well, you get the point.

I flat out don’t want to hear a choir performing such, either well or poorly. And I am not much in favor of a choir meandering through Gregorian Chant. When I was in college seminary, I as part of a schola which recorded a record of chant; I get the difference.

 

[Entwhistler]

Young people may be technologically savvy enough to find what the EF is. However, most young folks have no idea who Julius Caesar is, what Pope came before St. John Paul II, who was President during World War II, or that there is such a thing as the Eastern Catholic Church. If you don’t know what it is, you can’t search for it. And many bishops don’t go out of their way to promote the EF. Or even say, “Hey, y’all. We have a Latin Mass. Go to it and see if you like it.”

 

[otjm]

Perhaps that reflects YouTube usage; but FaceBook is ubiquitous; and certainly anyone interested in or going to an EF can effectively promote it.

 

[otjm]

I don’t intend this as a sippy comment; but those who dislike/detest COTH are rapid to remind everyone that it is an indult. The Ef is also an indult; however, there isply are not that many who desire it. Were there many, then Summorum Pontificum sets forth the means by which to request it - whether the bishop is for it, neutral, or against it.

The primary Mass is the OF - and one look at Coalition in Support of Ecclesia Dei clearly demonstrates that when one looks at the total number of parishes. Pope Benedict, when he wrote SP, did so with a clear direction, and that was to require the EF be requested from the ground up. He certainly could have required the bishops to promote it, and he clearly did not. Faulting the bishops for not promoting it is failing to understand that the OF is the primary and universal for of the Mass, and the EF is allowed by indult, where a stable group (whatever that means) requests it.

Most dioceses do not have the luxury of having as many priests as they need. Their first duty is to The majority, and the great majority prefer the EF - simply shown by the fact that even with dioceses which have a multiple of EFs, They are in a small minority of parishes, many of which offer both.

(name removed by moderator) posted a news story from Lincoln, Nebraska. I quote in part: "Presently there are about 7 or so diocesan priests who offer the Traditional Latin Mass; however, more are learning it. The rector at the diocesan seminary (St. Gregory the Great) offers it to the seminarians once a month.

This is probably one of the more interesting sides of Lincoln. The Latin Mass community is not very large in Lincoln."

Noted in the article is that there 97,000 parishioners in the diocese.

And while the article seems to remark about a lot of EF Masses being said (which in part seems contradicted by the comment quoted), the Coalition notes 2 parishes having a regular EF; Dawson, St Mary Church has one the 1st Sunday at 2 p.m., and Lincoln, St Francis of Assissi Church has 2 every Sunday (8:30 and 10:30) plus every weekday.

So even in what is largely acknowledged as one of the more conservative dioceses, they only seem to have 2 parishes. And that, with the FSSP seminary there.

The bishops simply are not going to promote the EF; it is a very small minority of individuals who desire it enough to form a stabel group and request it; they not only have no duty to promote it, but also have a duty to serve the great majority; there is a shortage of priests, and unless a priest deisres to learn and say the EF, he can’t be required to do so. In addition, in may areas priests are already required to say up to 3 Masses on Sunday, and there is no likelihood that should a small group request the EF, that it will replace one of the OFs already being said.

 

[stpurl]

I thank you for sharing, but I am curious who you’re responding to. I mentioned absolutely nothing about communion in the hand (for that matter, a more apropos indult would be the US one allowing meat to be eaten on Fridays outside Lent; the norm remains abstinence on all Fridays). . . and quite frankly, I do not think that the EF is ‘an indult’. An indult by definition is a permission for something that is ‘outside the norm’ to be allowed, something which in fact is again by definition ‘not the norm.’ The EF is not ‘outside the norm’, the EF is the norm as much as the OF. It was never abrogated. That being the case, if the EF was never abrogated and is still accepted as authentic liturgy today (it is), then it cannot be considered to be a practice ‘allowed in lieu of the OF for some’ which I think is what you consider it. Rather, it is authentic liturgy in its own right (and rite), not an ‘indult’, not something granted by sufferance and able to be whisked away at whim.

 

[pnewton]

I believe Jubilate Deo specifically addressed this issue. And it was to be distributed FREE OF CHARGE to EVERY parish.

I can testify to the truth of this. We even taught in my back water parish, in English, for use during Lent, and Latin on Fridays and Triduum. If my blue collar parish that has scarcely anyone with musical education can learn it, it has to be easy.

 

[otjm]

The EF does not have to be abrogated or suppressed for the OF to be the norm. From the letter accompanying SP: “Already from these concrete presuppositions, it is clearly seen that the new Missal will certainly remain the ordinary Form of the Roman Rite, not only on account of the juridical norms, but also because of the actual situation of the communities of the faithful.”

Paul 6th provided the indult to say the EF; and that is likely (along with the Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy) of the opinion that the OF had replaced the EF.

John Paul 2 expanded the indult (and there was an uproar that he was penurious in doing so).

Benedict 16 expanded on John Paul 2’s increase. The Pope is the ultimate liturgist, and there is nothing in law or in doctrine which would prevent him from prohibiting it’ one might recall that in the Council of Trent, liturgies which were less than 200 years old were suppressed, so it is not as if there is no history of it being done. And as to Trent; it allowed liturgies which were more than 200 years old to continue, so we have several.

And I have already stated my opinion on the topic heading and likelihood.

Nor did I suggest that you said anything about CITH. re-read my post; factually it is correct to refer to indults; but I tire of people beating them as a dead horse - whether it is about CITH or the EF. The likelihood is they are both here to stay, far longer than me.

I also think after looking at SP and the attendant letter, that Pope Benedict was walking a line between the bishops and those of the laity who wanted the EF. He clearly made it an issue which had to come from the bottom, up. As I was trying to say, he did not make the spread of the EF the responsibility of the bishops in any way. It was up to the laity, to form a stable group, and then petition the pastor. And if the pastor could not provide the EF (and he was not required to say it, only to make it available), then, and only then were the group to petition the bishop; and if he could not make it available, then and only then were they to petition Rome.

And it was not unknown that some individuals had created fire storms with bishops over the matter. The letter does not make strong allusion to that, but the matter had become contentious in some circles. Putting the onus on a stable group moved the dynamics some. As it is now available in almost every diocese to some extent, it appears that SP is working. The responsibility has been put directly to the laity; it is up to them to figure out how others of the laity will be educated concerning the EF.

Happy New Year. I presume you are in Vermont; hope the weather gives you a break or two.

 

[Augustinian]

This is probably one of the more interesting sides of Lincoln. The Latin Mass community is not very large in Lincoln."

Noted in the article is that there 97,000 parishioners in the diocese.

And while the article seems to remark about a lot of EF Masses being said (which in part seems contradicted by the comment quoted), the Coalition notes 2 parishes having a regular EF; Dawson, St Mary Church has one the 1st Sunday at 2 p.m., and Lincoln, St Francis of Assissi Church has 2 every Sunday (8:30 and 10:30) plus every weekday.

Considering there are less than 100,000 Catholics and there are 2 TLM’s every weekend and an add;l one once a month, I’d say that is a fairly large community. Pittsburgh has 6 times as many Catholics but fewer Latin masses, and we have a lot of older people here in Pittsburgh too.

 

[FrDavid96]

It also helps you build up your knowledge of grammar.

Grammar? whats that? do they even teaches that anymores semetimes I doubt it cause of how i see people make sentences 2day i wonder if gramar even exists except in some imagnary world people dont bother with gramar anymore then they care about there spelllings so who cares bout gramer

 

[anon65111186]

Grammar? whats that? do they even teaches that anymores semetimes I doubt it cause of how i see people make sentences 2day i wonder if gramar even exists except in some imagnary world people dont bother with gramar anymore then they care about there spelllings so who cares bout gramer

I don’t know if you are kidding and intentionally spelling things wrong and using poor grammar or what to prove a point but yes they still teach it, and knowing grammar is essential for effective communication and become a better speaker and writer

 

[twf]

Vancouver has 400k Catholics and I am aware of three parishes with Sunday EF Masses, and one with daily EF Masses… that being said, I am not aware of any in the other 4 dioceses of the Province.
Mileage really seems to vary.

 

[OraLabora]

Vancouver has 400k Catholics and I am aware of three parishes with Sunday EF Masses, and one with daily EF Masses… that being said, I am not aware of any in the other 4 dioceses of the Province.

Mileage really seems to vary.

Indeed. Quebec also has a special antipathy to Latin and anything pre-Conciliar on account of the Jansenist/clericalist leanings of the pre-Conciliar Church in Quebec and the subsequent “quiet revolution” of the early '60s which coincided with Vatican II time-wise. Those who didn’t bail from the Church at that point, fully embraced the changes of the Council to the point of hostility for anything pre-Conciliar. There is a mild thaw… a slight resurgence in interest in Gregorian chant for instance, in areas where it can be heard (I belong to a schola based in Sherbrooke, Quebec). But beyond that there is very little appetite for the TLM in Quebec.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

Imagine the EF mass was embraced (as in “made a priority”) tomorrow by the entire USCCB. Imagine how many people you would see flooding back into the pews.

This same thing I have heard for decades as a priest. It is simply incorrect.

The Church would do well to see the matters concerning the vetus ordo revisited, re-evaluated…and its occurrence much more limited. Its provision should not be a pastoral priority .

 

[omgriley]

This same thing I have heard for decades as a priest. It is simply incorrect.

Are you still a priest?

I beg to differ. The reception which Summorum Pontificum received was overwhelmingly positive. Because of it the Traditional Latin Mass has seen a large growth in popularity among the Catholic youth. From my own estimates, in my parish alone over half the congregation is under the age of 40.

The Church would do well to see the matters concerning the vetus ordo revisited

What matters are you referring to?

 

[Joe_5859]

I don’t doubt your experience, but if we are talking numbers, I think the vast majority of pew-sitting Catholics could not even tell you what Summorum Pontificorum is, let alone are they clamoring for the old form of the Mass to return.

I hear people talk about the old Mass as though it is the magic wand of evangelization and if the bishops but chose to use it, the whole world would be converted. I think that’s overstating it a bit. I think there’s a sense in which the traditions of the Church are beautiful and attractive, certainly. But I don’t think lack of availability of the old form of the Mass is the primary thing hindering evangelization in the Church today.

I’m glad Benedict promulgated Summorum Pontificum. I’m glad that such obstacles were removed to allow for wider availability. But I think if it were going to attract people to the Church in droves, then that will happen organically. Parishes that offer it will be bursting at the seams as more and more people flock to these Masses. And more Masses at more parishes will need to keep being added to keep up with the demand. But that isn’t what has happened over the past 10 years.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

Are you still a priest?

Of course I am…

 

[Don_Ruggero]

I hear people talk about the old Mass as though it is the magic wand of evangelization and if the bishops but chose to use it, the whole world would be converted. I think that’s overstating it a bit.

It is irrational, actually.