Francis to create commission to study female deacons in Catholic church

[deaconjohnO]

That’s a pure speculation, but one thing is sure: if the Second Person of the Trinity had become incarnate as a woman, there could be no male priests.

I suggest people read the installment of St. John Paul’s theology of the body. It does a very good job in presenting the marriage relationship between the Priesthood and the bride of Christ.

It presents the cosmic theological understanding of the Priesthood as representative of the bridegroom. Additionally like the priest stands in persona Christi the deacon stands in as the sacramental sign of Christ the Servant.

Its life changing reading. Go for it.

 

[irishpatrick]

Deacons in the Catholic Church have received the sacrament of Holy Orders. They are ordained. Therefore based on your statement the Church has no authority to ordain women as deacons. For female deacons to be possible the title would have to mean something completely from the order of deacon. Deacons are the SACRAMENTAL sign of Christ the servant. ( I have heard some say in the person of Christ the servant) . Creating a title deaconess or female deacon would be very confusing and problematic for all parties involved.

Take note that I wrote, deaconesses, not deacon. Big difference.

 

[deaconjohnO]

The nature of the priesthood is that the priest acts ‘in the person of Christ,’ most particularly in confecting the Eucharist. He uses Jesus’ exact words ‘this is my body,’ ‘this is my blood.’ He doesn’t speak in the third person. If Christ were female, a man could not act in persona Christi. Since he is male, a woman cannot act in persona Christi. The theology on that is not going to change.

The deacon stands in as Christ the Servant. Sacramentally that is.

 

[deaconjohnO]

Take note that I wrote, deaconesses, not deacon. Big difference.

Mea Culpa

 

[irishpatrick]

Indeed. I could be taken out back and shot for saying this on CAF, but matters are closed until a future pope reopens them. And if that should happen, the Church will proclaim, “As it has always been taught…” when teaching something new. It’s an old Catholic joke – but one that perhaps originated in truth…

I have no dog in this fight as it doesn’t bother me that women can’t be priests. So bear that in mind, fellow Catholics, when you think to yell at me for this post.

I won’t yell at you.

There has never been an infallible teaching that was changed. Never. And, if you think about it, if they really are infallible, how can they ever change?

People confuse Church disciplines with infallible/unchangeable teachings. For example, Priests cannot marry by Church discipline, and that can change.

 

[irishpatrick]

Mea Culpa

 

[_Abyssinia]

Check out from this report what this document from 380 says regarding Deaconesses:

Constitutions of the Holy Apostles from around 380, which stressed that deaconesses had “no liturgical function,” but rather devoted themselves “to their function in the community which was service to the women.”

The function of a deaconess, the document read, was summed up in the constitutions thus: “The deaconess does not bless, and she does not fulfil any of the things that priests and deacons do, but she looks after the doors and attends the priests during the baptism of women, for the sake of decency.”

While deaconesses were able to carry out the anointing of women in baptism for decency’s sake and to visit sick women in their homes, “they were forbidden to confer baptism themselves, or to play a part in the Eucharistic offering.”

Even in the fourth century, the document read, “the way of life of deaconesses was very similar to that of nuns.”

While history proves that the ministry of female deacons did indeed exist, the text noted that it was “developed unevenly” in the different parts of the Church, and that affirmed that it is clear “that this ministry was not perceived as simply the feminine equivalent of the masculine diaconate.”

catholicnewsagency.com/news/pope-francis-says-hes-open-to-studying-the-female-diaconate-94916/

This corresponds with the International Theological Comission which said, "the deaconesses of history “were not purely and simply equivalent to the deacons.”

catholic.com/blog/deacon-jim-russell/what-should-i-know-about-pope-francis-and-‘women-deacons’

So anybody that thinks Deaconesses can exist now and they can have the same duties as Deacons, I don’t think that’s possible.

 

[GKC]

My, this is a fast moving thread.

 

[GEddie]

Usually the case when the topic hits a nerve.

 

[GKC]

Usually the case when the topic hits a nerve.

Yep.

 

[baliano]

I’m usually pretty good at getting into hot water but I think I’ll sit this one out until something concrete comes out of the Vatican.

 

[ProVobis]

My Anglican friends are crowing already that this is indeed the first step to women priests. Which strikes me as a bit premature.

They should know.

 

[ProVobis]

The nature of the priesthood is that the priest acts ‘in the person of Christ,’ most particularly in confecting the Eucharist. He uses Jesus’ exact words ‘this is my body,’ ‘this is my blood.’ He doesn’t speak in the third person. If Christ were female, a man could not act in persona Christi. Since he is male, a woman cannot act in persona Christi. The theology on that is not going to change.

While you and I believe this, Protestants always seem to have a way around this.

 

[johnnyc176]

Pope Francis is a smart man. He’s knows there were previous studies of this but when you are facing down 900 women you punt!

Seriously he is intelligent. Look how he orchestrated everything that led up to Amoris Laetitia. He allowed open discussion…let the liberals get it out of their system and at the same time being able to identify the really wacky. In the end we get a document that beautifully upholds the teaching of Jesus Christ and His Church on marriage.

I expect this will go the same way and in the end we will get a beautiful document explaining the teaching of Jesus and I would guess some wonderful words about our Blessed Mother.

I’ll look forward to reading that. In the meantime you kiddies have fun!

 

[deaconjohnO]

I am claiming and *implying publicly *that Mary M was a deacon?

The question is: Is being a deacon a “holy order”?

.

the answer to your question is Yes.
Something is amiss here. It is common Catholic knowledge of the 3 degrees of the sacrament of holy orders.
CCC
III. THE THREE DEGREES OF THE SACRAMENT OF HOLY ORDERS

1554 "The divinely instituted ecclesiastical ministry is exercised in different degrees by those who even from ancient times have been called bishops, priests, and deacons."32

FYI I urge you to read Saint John Paul II’s document on holy orders.

 

[Yeoman]

Has anyone taken the time to read what Pope Francis actually said?

The problem here may be that the Pope doesn’t seem to be able to appreciate that every word he says has huge impact and will be interpreted, often inaccurately.

There’s really no room for off the cuff “why not” responses in this office. Pope Francis needs to learn to be careful about such things. Every time he does this loyal Catholics are forced into trying to interpret and explain what he said and why he said it. Mot people wont do that. So by the end of the week we’ll be dealing with “oh, the Pope is going to allow the ordination of female priests”. And this just a couple of weeks after “oh, the divorced can now go to communion.”

 

[deaconjohnO]

So then…it is not a problem for women to be “deacons” in the “lay ministry”, yes?

Anyone have a problem with that?

.

The lay ecclesial ministry already exists and is dominated in numbers by women. Not sure why they would be called deacons.

 

[Expatreprocedit]

Deaconesses existed. There is no doubt about that. I personally believe that they received a special sacramental (not the sacrament of holy orders), and thus was a distinct order from the male diaconate. This sort of sacramental would be akin to the subdiaconate (which is also not part of the sacrament of holy orders), the consecration of virgins, the blessing of abbots and abbesses.

My understanding was that deaconesses in the early Church assisted in the baptizing of women converts (in the early Church baptism was done in the nude).

 

[Expatreprocedit]

The problem here may be that the Pope doesn’t seem to be able to appreciate that every word he says has huge impact and will be interpreted, often inaccurately.

There’s really no room for off the cuff “why not” responses in this office. Pope Francis needs to learn to be careful about such things. Every time he does this loyal Catholics are forced into trying to interpret and explain what he said and why he said it. Mot people wont do that. So by the end of the week we’ll be dealing with “oh, the Pope is going to allow the ordination of female priests”. And this just a couple of weeks after “oh, the divorced can now go to communion.”

It’s always dangerous to raise expectations. See for example Paul VI and his commission to study the question of contraception.

 

[_Abyssinia]

My understanding was that deaconesses in the early Church assisted in the baptizing of women converts (in the early Church baptism was done in the nude).

From article:

The function of a deaconess, the document read, was summed up in the constitutions thus: “The deaconess does not bless, and she does not fulfil any of the things that priests and deacons do, but she looks after the doors and attends the priests during the baptism of women, for the sake of decency.”

While deaconesses were able to carry out the anointing of women in baptism for decency’s sake and to visit sick women in their homes, “they were forbidden to confer baptism themselves, or to play a part in the Eucharistic offering.”

catholicnewsagency.com/news/pope-francis-says-hes-open-to-studying-the-female-diaconate-94916/