Francis to create commission to study female deacons in Catholic church

[oliver927]

I have not read through all 11 pages of posts so far so I apologize if this has been posted already but Deacon Jim Russell posted an article on the main website here and I thought it very good so I thought I would share for any who may not see it.

What Should I Know About Pope Francis and ‘Women Deacons’?

 

[deaconjohnO]

Groovy. So if females were deacons in the early church (and I assume there is decent possibility of this, or the pope would not be inspired to set up a whole commission to study it)…and what you say is correct…then these women were deacons without “holy orders”?

.

I guess if you want to use terms loosely you can call women priests as well. Have at it.

I am utterly confused why the Pope wants to set up a commission to address something that has already been infallibly addressed by a previous Pope (and saint). AND previously addressed by a Vatican commission. Either the pope isn’t aware of the 2002 investigation of women deacons or he doesn’t agree with it. Which I find troubling (because the matter has been addressed by Saint John Paul II)

he Commission of theologians, even if it has not the role of pronouncing with the authority, which is characteristic of the Magisterium, presented two important indications which emerge from study of the matter. In the first place, the Commission observed that the deaconesses mentioned in the tradition of the early Church cannot simply be assimilated to ordained deacons.
The International Theological Commission devoted over five years of research to the topic of the history and theology of the diaconate before approving the text of its study at its recently concluded meeting. The study was produced at the request of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.

zenit.org/articles/theological-commission-s-statement-on-women-s-ordination-to-diaconate/

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Then you won’t mind my pointing out Catholicism’s sharp decline in membership in the US as being indicative of something wrong with the RCC.

All religions are experiencing a decline of membership, not just Catholicism.

The sex abuse scandal, fed this with regards to the Catholic Church, but as new sex abuse scandals are being revealed in other secular institutions and how those institutions handled them the same way as the RCC did, people are falling into a state of skepticism toward institutions. In all, our society is falling into spiritual apathy.

Survey’s done recently show that young people reject religion in general. Many believe in a creator, but any relationship with the creator doesn’t exist.

Jim

 

[JimR-OCDS]

DaddyGirl

Are you saying the men take on the flesh of Jesus?

The priest becomes Christ en-persona, i.e. in spirit. Its why we respond to the priest when he says, “Peace be with you,” our response “and with your spirit.” We referring to the spirit of Jesus Christ whom he is in the Mass and Christ was a man.

The priesthood can not be compared to a profession or a job. Women can do all of these things.

What she can’t do is be Christ, who is a male.

Jim

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Perhaps instead of looking at women deacons, a better step would be for the Church to look at reopening the office of Acolyte.

Acolyte’s do not receive Holy Orders, but are ordained to assist more closely in Mass.

Two Bishop’s ago in my dioceses, there was a misunderstanding in the US that the office of Acolyte had been reopened and the Bishop ordained a group of men as Acolyte’s.

One of the men use to belong to my parish.

This didn’t last even a year before the Vatican shut down the office, but allowed those who were ordained, to remain.

Jim

 

[_Abyssinia]

Excerpt from article from Canon lawyer Ed Condon:

The elusive historical figure of the deaconess resurfaces from time to time in Church debates, usually when discussing how to better incorporate women into the leadership and governance of the Church. Deaconesses in the early Church were a fact: they existed and there is reference to them in numerous documents dating back even to the Apostolic period. It seems, from the body of historical evidence available, that they had a definite place within the structure of the Church, at least in some dioceses, and were appointed through some kind of laying-on of hands.

This, together with the apparent synonymity of terms with the order of deacons, leads to a common assumption that this was a form of sacramental ordination and that there was little, if any, distinction between the role of deaconess and deacon, other than gender, and that it is therefore historically, logically, and theologically coherent for women to be ordained as permanent deacons in the modern Church. It is actually a little more complicated than this.

While deaconesses are an historical fact in the life of the Church, even in the patchy records we have it seems clear that they had a distinctly separate ministry from that of the deacons, who operated as assistants to the bishops and priests and who were in charge of works of charity. In some places they seem to have assisted in the baptism of women and visited and cared for the widows of the community, in others they led female monastic communities and seem closer to modern day abbesses, while in some places they lived as anchorites attached to churches. Pope Francis acknowledged this as his understanding in his response to some of the questions he received in his meeting with the superiors general.

catholicherald.co.uk/commentandblogs/2016/05/13/a-debate-on-womens-ordination-is-the-last-thing-the-church-needs-right-now/

 

[Samsun]

aleteia.org/2016/05/13/complete-transcript-of-pope-francis-remarks-on-women-deacons/

I will tell you something that comes after, because I saw that there is a general question. Consecrated women must go to the consultations, the assemblies of the Congregation for Religious: this is for certain. Consecrated women must go into the consultations on the many problems that are presented. Another thing: better inclusion. At the moment, concrete things do not come to mind, but again, as I said before: to seek the opinion of consecrated women, because women see things with an originality different than that of men, and this is enriching: both in discussions, and in decision-making, as well as in concrete reality.

 

[clem456]

Jimmy Akin has a well reasoned article on this on CAF homepage.

 

[Thorolfr]

DaddyGirl

The priest becomes Christ en-persona, i.e. in spirit. Its why we respond to the priest when he says, “Peace be with you,” our response “and with your spirit.” We referring to the spirit of Jesus Christ whom he is in the Mass and Christ was a man.

The priesthood can not be compared to a profession or a job. Women can do all of these things.

What she can’t do is be Christ, who is a male.

Jim

If a priest is like Christ in spirit rather than in the way the body looks, why is it that a woman cannot be like Christ in spirit? Do men have male spirits and women female spirits that are different kinds of spirits?

 

[OneSheep]

Excerpt from article from Canon lawyer Ed Condon:

The elusive historical figure of the deaconess resurfaces from time to time in Church debates, usually when discussing how to better incorporate women into the leadership and governance of the Church. Deaconesses in the early Church were a fact: they existed and there is reference to them in numerous documents dating back even to the Apostolic period. It seems, from the body of historical evidence available, that they had a definite place within the structure of the Church, at least in some dioceses, and were appointed through some kind of laying-on of hands.

It is reasonable to conclude that the separate ministries were appropriate for the time. An underlying question is whether the Spirit reveals an unfolding revelation, that is, that God only gives us as much as we can culturally handle, or the deposit of revelation does not become more clear over time, all the clarity necessary can be gleaned from words written long ago, that the Spirit is actually alive and present in unchanging cultural mores.

In other words, the culture of 2000 years ago predictably pressured the Church to remain fairly stubborn about giving women higher-ranking roles. Were they closed to the Spirit or did the Spirit find such giving of women higher-ranking roles a step too difficult for followers to incorporate, that their faith was not ready for such a suggestion or discussion? Or, is the Spirit absolutely saying-for-all-eternity that women will never rightfully serve the same sacramental roles that men do?

To me, the roles designated in Biblical times were a matter of survival. The social and cultural pressures were purposeful.

Today what is appropriate? God only knows.

One interesting theological angle to this: Does God wait for the Church to decide that Catholic women can be deacons before He calls them to do so, or is a woman called to be a deacon also called to belong to another denomination?

 

[GEddie]

Well…how can you possibly be so* sure *of this?
It’s impossible to know this.

If God came to earth as a half-divine female…I think the female–the only begotten daughter of God, as it were–would have been wise and thoughtful enough to go out of Her way to specify and make sure it got into writing that* both * female and male people could be priests and spread the good news and take the mission forward.

.

You realized that you just committed a theological boo-boo?

Our LORD was not “half divine” anything, He was fully divine, just as he was a human being.

ICXC NIKA

 

[JimR-OCDS]

If a priest is like Christ in spirit rather than in the way the body looks, why is it that a woman cannot be like Christ in spirit? Do men have male spirits and women female spirits that are different kinds of spirits?

Christ is male, both physically in His glorified body and spiritual.

So the priest must be male.

Our gender goes beyond our physical appearance. It’s our entire being.

Jim

 

[GEddie]

If a priest is like Christ in spirit rather than in the way the body looks, why is it that a woman cannot be like Christ in spirit? Do men have male spirits and women female spirits that are different kinds of spirits?

Oh LORD, you just let the can of BBs go!

Whether or not the human soul has gender, the **human being **does, because we are bodies as well as souls.

Teasing apart body from soul is pointless except in regard to death, which is not an issue in this context, as there are no sacraments nor priesthood in death.

ICXC NIKA

 

[Thorolfr]

Christ is male, both physically in His glorified body and spiritual.

So the priest must be male.

Our gender goes beyond our physical appearance. It’s our entire being.

Jim

So Native Americans who believe in some people being “Two Spirits” don’t know that they’re talking about since someone can only have either a pure male or a pure female spirit (a very binary way of looking at humans)?

 

[on_the_hill]

Indeed. I could be taken out back and shot for saying this on CAF,

That would be capital punishment, which we are generally agreed is not the preferred option.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

So Native Americans who believe in some people being “Two Spirits” don’t know that they’re talking about since someone can only have either a pure male or a pure female spirit (a very binary way of looking at humans)?

I don’t know what Native Americans believe.

This is a Catholic forum, not a Native American one.

We follow Catholic teaching.

Jim

 

[Sarcelle]

What’s so important about Christ being a man? Would it have been impossible for God to have become incarnate as a woman?

For God, everything is possible. For some reason, God chose to come as a man and who am I to question Him.

The Church simply does not have the authority to ordain women. We should do well to remember that.

 

[clem456]

If a priest is like Christ in spirit rather than in the way the body looks, why is it that a woman cannot be like Christ in spirit? Do men have male spirits and women female spirits that are different kinds of spirits?

We have discussed this a few times.
The incarnation of Christ has deep meaning. And we are made in God’s image.

Denying the specific and concrete physicality of Christ- and of humanity in general- has tragic comsequences.
Human beings are male and female. We also have stomachs. We need shelter. Medical care.
Human beings are a unity of body and soul, and denying any aspect of “humanness” simply detracts from human beings.
As Christians we should not be in the business of marginalizing humanity.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

FYI, when Jesus has appeared to saints throughout history, he doesn’t show up as a woman.

Neither does the Blessed Mother appear as a man to those whom she has appeared to.

Jim

 

[JimR-OCDS]

You just illustrated the point I was trying to make. If the priest becomes The Annointed One “in spirit” then the male anatomy is not the important factor or vehicle in the process, it is the spirit of both. The process is not dependent on having male body parts since both male and females have spirits.
Jesus himself held disciples like Mary Magdalene and other women in high regard and knew they were not following him as a “job” but as a calling.

Whoever interpreted Jesus’ desire for those who offer the bread/wine and carry on the mission as being possible for only people who have male bodies was perhaps thinking in a limited fashion, IMO.

.

But in the case of Jesus Christ, who is a male and still very much alive, the priest being Christ en-persona, must be as Christ is, a male.

Take note of the Eucharistic Prayers of the Mass, they’re not to Jesus, but to the Father.

The priest is Christ, praying to the Father and offering Himself in the Bread and Wine, as the living sacrifice.

Jim