Francis urges priests not to push cohabiting couples away

[Mark121359]

It is not our place to speculate about the sin of anyone,*** lest we place ourselves on a judgement seat and are in turn judged***.

This is simply not Church teachings. The sentence; “Judge not, that you be not judged” is frequently misquoted. Christ did not call for us to refrain from ever judging. What he was saying in the verses that followed is that we should first judge ourselves before we pass judgment on others. “You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s eye.” He recognized the possibility for evil in making moral judgments and so he was teaching us not to avoid making them, but to purify ourselves before casting them… Also I think people forget about the sin of omission. We can become an accessory to another persons sin. And one of the ways that this is made possible is through silence. In other words, if someone has knowledge of an evil being committed, we can end up being guilty by our participation, or omission, regarding another’s sin by our silence.

Peace, Mark

 

[Bataar]

I think the biggest problem is the way cases are presented, especially on the secular side. This goes for just about everything Pope Francis has said lately. You can be as loving and caring as possible when dealing with a cohabitating couple or gay couple, etc, but as soon as you tell them what they’re doing is wrong, no matter how lovingly and gentle you try to put it, you’re instantly a hate filled bigot.

 

[Michael_Mayo]

I think the biggest problem is the way cases are presented, especially on the secular side. This goes for just about everything Pope Francis has said lately. You can be as loving and caring as possible when dealing with a cohabitating couple or gay couple, etc, but as soon as you tell them what they’re doing is wrong, no matter how lovingly and gentle you try to put it, you’re instantly a hate filled bigot.

Well, it seems these days a people either already know if what they are doing wrong and do not care to deal with it, or have already made up their own minds that relgardless of what others or the Church says, they are convinces what they are doing is not wrong. Either way they do not need our condemnation, disapproval or approval. Befoer we can have any influence with them at all we first need to build a trusting relationship. That does not mean denying our own values or beliefs.

 

[Tomdstone]

Well, it seems these days a people either already know if what they are doing wrong and do not care to deal with it, or have already made up their own minds that relgardless of what others or the Church says, they are convinces what they are doing is not wrong. Either way they do not need our condemnation, disapproval or approval. Befoer we can have any influence with them at all we first need to build a trusting relationship. That does not mean denying our own values or beliefs.

My guess is that many people do not see anything wrong with certain sinful activities. Otherwise, why is there a rush to approve SS marriage?

 

[Michael_Mayo]

My guess is that many people do not see anything wrong with certain sinful activities. Otherwise, why is there a rush to approve SS marriage?

That one seems to be a conflict between civil rights and religious belief.

Is the definition of marraige legal or religious. As Catholic (and many other Christians) we hold a religious view. Others who do not hold that view are ok with a legal redefinition.

 

[SaintAugustine]

That one seems to be a conflict between civil rights and religious belief.

Is the definition of marraige legal or religious. As Catholic (and many other Christians) we hold a religious view. Others who do not hold that view are ok with a legal redefinition.

As Catholics, our legal, civil views are supposed to reflect our faith. This includes our voting. We are not supposed to compartmentalize our faith.

 

[Michael_Mayo]

As Catholics, our legal, civil views are supposed to reflect our faith. This includes our voting. We are not supposed to compartmentalize our faith.

That is true. But we cannot expect others to accomodate to our beliefs. We can be doing all we can to influence laws but at a one to one level we will ony be alienating those we confront.

 

[SaintAugustine]

That is true. But we cannot expect others to accomodate to our beliefs. We can be doing all we can to influence laws but at a one to one level we will ony be alienating those we confront.

your post doesn’t make sense. Are you claiming we should not vote and support laws consistent with our faith for fear of alienating people?

 

[Michael_Mayo]

your post doesn’t make sense. Are you claiming we should not vote and support laws consistent with our faith for fear of alienating people?

No, we can vote and support laws but when it comes to a family member or neighbor it is best to move on to another subject.

 

[SaintAugustine]

No, we can vote and support laws but when it comes to a family member or neighbor it is best to move on to another subject.

Ah, I see what you are saying. I have gay relatives, for example. They are non-Catholic. They know what the Church teaches and what I believe. We don’t discuss homosexuality, and I don’t chastise them every time I see them. That would be silly.

Ditto with my liberal friends/family, when it comes to life issues. The issues come up occasionally, and I will defend the Church and/or correct the media’s misconceptions about what the Pope recently said (a lot of that lately). But, I don’t go out of my way to preach about those issues on a regular basis.

 

[Michael_Mayo]

Yes, especially correcting the misconceptions.

 

[pnewton]

“You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s eye.” He recognized the possibility for evil in making moral judgments and so he was teaching us not to avoid making them, but to purify ourselves before casting them.

So after one “has arrived” at sainthood they can judge? In light of Pope Francis comment, “who am I to judge,” can we assume that some here are holy than the pope?

The verse is not misused when one listens to what the Holy Father has said of late. He is trying to teach us that we need to preach the Gospel, not The Law.

 

[SaintAugustine]

**So after one “has arrived” at sainthood they can judge? ** In light of Pope Francis comment, “who am I to judge,” can we assume that some here are holy than the pope?

In theory, based on the “remove the speck in your own eye” line in the Bible, this would be true. That said, a saint (i.e. in heaven) is too busy adoring Our Lord to be concerned with being judgmental.

 

[fastenatingguy]

Actually I’m with the Deacon on this one. You’d be surprised how respectful people are of moral viewpoints directly opposed to theirs when you treat them as people BEFORE bringing up the issue of their sins. It’s more often only we fail to make a personal connection before raising moral issues that they tune us out totally and label us as “self righteous zealots.”

At my kid’s catholic school, the pastor requires ALL parents of 2nd graders to attend two adult-only talks at which he explains parental responsibility for teaching about sin, guilt, repentance and salvation and for LIVING it out in family life. In that talk he first makes it abundantly clear how much he loves the kids and wants them to truly enter into Grace via Reconciliation and Communion, but needs the parents to help! It’s precisely because of the clarity of his love and commitment that he can get away with gently rebuking people for brazenly using contraception/sterilization, divorcing and remarrying and acting out other scandal that undermines the faith of their kids in what is supposed to be their years of innocence. People always clap at the end (and not the awkward polite kind either). Can you imagine?

**Awesome Pastor.

I’d love to come to one of your Sunday masses. What parish?**

 

[fastenatingguy]

What follows is just my 2 cents worth. Take what you like and leave the rest.

In a 12-step program, addicts and alcoholics are frequently encouraged to come to meetings even before they believe that the 12 steps will work for them. If they come, nobody is going to make them talk, or admit to any faults, or even admit to having a problem. Nobody is going to call them out of their poor choices and bad behavior. On the other hand, they certainly aren’t going to be told. “You should drink more. Doing drugs is fine.”

Instead, they will simply be welcomed. No more and no less. And if a newcomer does want to discuss their poor choices and bad behavior, he or she be heard and helped and (this is important) offered love.

It is very powerful for a newly sober alcoholic to see a room full of happy, healthy, sober people, some of whom have been sober for decades. It makes it possible to see that there is another way to live.

“Bring the body and the heart will follow.”

I think what Pope Francis is trying to bring more bodies into the Church so more hearts will follow.

 

[commenter]

Where I live, people aren’t staying away from church because they fear the harsh condemnation of sin. Sin is seldom taught about, let alone condemned. When sin is mentioned in religious education or sermons, it is in vague terms, like selfishness, or inequality, or about the wealthy and powerful. Sin is rarely presented as actions sometimes committed by youth or adults like you and me. The flip side of that is that sanctity is rarely presented in terms of grace, or relationship to God, or virtue.

In my diocese, people drift away from church because they see it as unimportant. Why bother attending Mass where the people are encouraged to applaud each other, or the sermon repeats the editorial in the daily newspaper? Keep in mind Francis is being quoted out of context by the secular media. Read the things that he says that are not being quoted.

 

[fastenatingguy]

Where I live, people aren’t staying away from church because they fear the harsh condemnation of sin. Sin is seldom taught about, let alone condemned. When sin is mentioned in religious education or sermons, it is in vague terms, like selfishness, or inequality, or about the wealthy and powerful. Sin is rarely presented as actions sometimes committed by youth or adults like you and me. The flip side of that is that sanctity is rarely presented in terms of grace, or relationship to God, or virtue.

In my diocese, people drift away from church because they see it as unimportant. Why bother attending Mass where the people are encouraged to applaud each other, or the sermon repeats the editorial in the daily newspaper? Keep in mind Francis is being quoted out of context by the secular media. Read the things that he says that are not being quoted.

This is an interesting observation. Twenty years ago we welcomed a new pastor into our parish. He was from a nearby parish and had a great personality, very dynamic. But his homilies (as I recall) reminded me of the newspaper editorials you mentioned. He didn’t pursue the “hard stuff” and he was “liked” by all for about three years. His associate priests seemed to adopt his style to a degree.

He died suddenly of a heart attack, and was replaced by a combination shepherd/brimstone priest. It took a long time for many in the parish to “adapt” and he was not always liked, but came to be respected and admired. He served eight years faithfully. When it was his “time” to receive another assignment, he was retained. Some were happy; others, not so much. By this time he had his associates priests in his “style” and he remained another eight years until his retirement two years ago. Good shepherd!

We were blessed with a new pastor with the courage to continue preaching right and wrong, good and evil, in just about every homily. The associates are of the same, consistent message. The new school principal and the staff are also. All these events and more have aided in the the natural transformation of the parish community gradually back to its authentic Catholic identity. It seems that we have stopped the leaks and more people are active at both mass and within the various ministries. What a gift from God.

Pray for good priests and bishops. Support them and the seminaries in all they do.

 

[JimG]

Where I live, people aren’t staying away from church because they fear the harsh condemnation of sin. Sin is seldom taught about, let alone condemned. When sin is mentioned in religious education or sermons, it is in vague terms, like selfishness, or inequality, or about the wealthy and powerful. Sin is rarely presented as actions sometimes committed by youth or adults like you and me. The flip side of that is that sanctity is rarely presented in terms of grace, or relationship to God, or virtue.

In my diocese, people drift away from church because they see it as unimportant. Why bother attending Mass where the people are encouraged to applaud each other, or the sermon repeats the editorial in the daily newspaper? Keep in mind Francis is being quoted out of context by the secular media. Read the things that he says that are not being quoted.

Yes, I can’t recall any sermons harshly condemning anyone, whether they were gay or cohabiting, or anything else. You are probably right that many people simply don’t see what they are doing as wrong. By the same token they cannot expect that the Church will change it’s teachings to say that wrong is right or to change the teachings on marriage. Those teachings come from Christ.

 

[Tomdstone]

By the same token they cannot expect that the Church will change it’s teachings to say that wrong is right or to change the teachings on marriage. Those teachings come from Christ.

The Church changed its teaching on grounds to grant a marriage annulment. A hundred years ago, an annulment was granted only for extremely serious reasons, such as proof that someone was already married or that he was castrated. The proof is when you look at the statistics of the number of annulments granted before VII and the number of annulments after VII. In the USA it has increased by thousands of percentage points. Today, who is denied an annulment? The rejections are rather few in number. The only case I heard of was of a public figure who already was granted two annulments, and the third one was denied.

 

[Tomdstone]

It is a particularly difficult issue in our age. The Church’s teachings are utterly clear on the matter however. Unfortunately, too many people, including those raised as Catholics do not consider it a big deal. This leads to problems especially when couples are '‘locked’ together financially or especially if they have a child. Such a situation may appear to them as a great obstacle to return to the Faith. If only we had more clarity in the past about such things.

Why do you suppose that more and more couples are cohabiting and not marrying? Could it have something to do with the fact that marriage annulments are so easy to obtain nowadays? People are married for 15 years and have several children, when all of a sudden the wife decides she wants to get together with a new boyfriend and she then brings up questions about her state of mind 15 years ago when she got married? She claims her consent had a defect of some sort. Well, if marriage annulments are granted for trivial reasons, and the husband is now told that he was never sacramentally married in the first place, why would he not wonder as to why he spent all that money on the Church wedding and later buying a house for his wife? Would it have been better if he had saved all that money and only cohabited until the lady was ready to make up her mind permanently about whether she wanted to get married or not?