Franciscan University

[Joe_5859]

Thats like critiquing the Superbowl and not mentioning Football!

Very funny.

 

[Flame_of_Christ]

With regard to praying in an unknown language, that is precisely what tongues is. You do know that St. Paul says that there is a gift called “interpretation of tongues” right? Well, let’s say that saomeone is praying in tongues and there are 5 people there. Before it is interpreted, what do you think that the gift of tongues will sound like? Will it make sense before someone uses the supernatural (not natural) gift of interpretation? Of course it will sound like words that mean nothing to me.

Also, to make this more clear, St. Paul also says that “when a person prays in tongues no one understands him, for he speaks to God and utters mysteries in the Spirit.” 1 Cor 14:2

did you notice that it says that he is not understood by people? So you may call this gibberish, but according to St. Paul "when I speak in tounges, you do not understand me, for I am speaking to God and I am uttering mysteries in the Spirit.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

I try not to judge individuals. But my perception of this innovative movement within the Catholic Church is not positive. I know that my writing often comes off as combative and forceful. Please forgive me if I have offended you (and others) in any way.

That sinner,
Mickey

Certainly I forgive you! I am often quite blunt too, so forgive me if I’ve wronged you in any way.

That other sinner,
Daniel

 

[graceandglory]

Sounds like syncretism.

Well, it isn’t. They are converts, and were baptized Catholic at twelve. By law they are required to attend a pentecostal church twice a month with their dad. They “prefer” a charismatic expression of worship.

The Catholic Church is universal. As such, there are many “styles” of worship that are acceptable, and orthodox. While my parish isn’t like that, I tell my kids that the “style” of worship they prefer is not just about being protestant, but is Catholic in its roots.

That is not syncretism. That is trying to keep them Catholic, when they “like” what they experience in a protestant church.

 

[Michael_Saint]

I have read that people at Fransican charismatic “masses” are holding their hands in the air, speaking in tongues, laughing hysterically, going into seizure like states, and dropping to the ground as they are “slain in the spirit”–all of this to the backdrop of contemporary protestant pop/rock music.

It certainly sounds protestant to me.

What is going on there?

As a recent graduate with ties to people who have been there for some time, I can tell you that this is no longer the case, but was more common 10 years back. The late afternoon Mass used to be the “Charismatic Mass”, and it consisted in the use of “tongues”, “prophecy”, the whole kit and kaboodle. Regarding the seizures and dropping to the ground, this still happens once in a while, though in contexts outside the Mass.

 

[Michael_Saint]

The Catholic church existed before the Pentecostal denomination …so if anything, Pentecostals are just an exaggerated version of the Catholic Charismatic.
I think Franciscan has a reputation of being on the up and up… so its probably nothing to worry about.

The problem with Franciscan is not the orthodoxy - the theology taught there is probably the best in the country. I would say the main problem is the Pentecostal mentality that permeates the campus and affects the students.

We must remember that the Charismatic Renewal is nothing but Protestant Pentecostalism brought into the Catholic Church wholesale, without being “tempered” or “purified” by Catholicism. For many years, the Catholics who joined the movement thus embraced the Pentecostal mentality, which was: “It’s all about Jesus. Dogma just gets in the way. Let’s focus on Him”. Thus, some dogmas were either disregarded entirely, or were “put on the backburner”. I knew a Charismatic who said although he agreed with the Church’s teaching on invoking Mary and the Saints, he didn’t do it himself, becuase he felt they just “got in the way”, because it was “all about Jesus”.

Today’s “Steubies” (FUS students, as they are called) accept and live by Church dogmas, but many are still affected by another problematic Pentecostal mentality - extreme emotionalism and the consequent failure to use reason. The Church has always taught that common sense is a huge key in discernment, and that God-given reason helps us often to guide our way. At Steubenville, this is often not the case. People are very impulsive, try to do two contradictory things because (I “feel” called), make immature and unwise decisions because “my heart tells me to”, etc. Also, there is too much of a reliance on “consolations”, which is considered the “sign” that one is “connecting” in one’s relationship with the Lord. The result is that many students, after they leave and the “dark night” takes over, abandon religious practice and lose their faith.

 

[Michael_Saint]

If you call the pentecostal revivalist practices of being “slain in the spirit”, speaking gibberish, uncontrollable laughter, seizure-like twitching, barking like dogs, oinking like pigs, hands raised in the air, pop/rock bands playing protestant hymns, etc…Catholic in style…then I stand corrected.
It is a new hybrid…in my opinion.

Mickey, I think you are being too hard on the Charismatic Renewal.

Without a doubt, there are extremes and abuses, but there has been a lot of good which has come out of it as well.

You are judging the entire movement based on certain abuses and excesses. The Charismatic Renewal is about seeking a greater activation of the gifts of the Holy Spirit that we received at baptism, confirmation, and daily at Mass in Holy Communion. As for barking, seizures, etc., the Pentecostal Protestants might have been okay with this, but as time has gone on, the Catholic Church has curbed these tendencies and provided guidance for better discernment.

You cite some bishops in the 1970s about the dangers of the Charismatic Renewal, and I don’t blame them for being concerned, because the movement in the 1970s were a storehouse for some of the craziest things. But like I said, over time, much of this has been corrected.

Steubenville, for instance, is not nearly as “charismatic” as it used to be.

 

[Michael_Saint]

Yes! You are the one I want to speak to.

These conferences they host every year—I have read they are pretty much unrecognizable from a pentecostal revival meeting. The article I linked earlier indicates this. Is that accurate? .

I went to the Charismatic Conference this summer, and yes, you pretty much hit the nail on the head. There was a “healing service”, where the “faith healer” (though he did not refer to himself as such), after he led the people in a healing prayer, to come up in various groups, according to various healings. So, we had the people who no longer needed crutches come up, and they were invited to run across the stage, and the attendees applauded wildly. We had the next group who had their hearing miraculously restored, come up, stand in a line, and hold up their hearing aids. The “faith healer” would interview certain people individually on their illnesses, how long they were ill, how bad it was, and how it was now, etc.

To anyone who has done research into this phenomenon, ie. the power of suggestion, euphoria and adrenalyne, “planting” people, etc., what they said would probably apply here. Although I am sure some were healed, I think other things could account for many of the others.

 

[Michael_Saint]

What distinguishes the Charismatic events at Franciscan from a Protestant service is that the Fransican events are eucharistic. There is one photograph in the article that shows the big crowd facing a platform with two big screens on the side with song lyrics posted. This is a familiar sight to me. But the picture leaves something out. Right at the center of the shot the back of a blad man is obscuring the middle portion of the stage. If you look closely, you can barely see the glow of part of a monstrance, which is mostly obscured by his head.

Not only is the eucharistic centered up there on the stage, but most of the service consists in eucharistic meditation. The way it works, with some variations, is that everybody sings for a while, then low music plays while a priest, often Fr .Scanlan, reads some mediational material, Scripture, or something from a saint.

I can’t comment on “Slain in the Spirit,” because I never witnessed anything like that, and I can’t assume that the Charismatic Conference was identical to the FOPs.

Okay, I am sure I know you, Soren1, because I just graduated with my MA too.

Anyway, yes the FOPs are Eucharistic - sometimes. But not most of the time. And Tuesday night praise and worship is hardly ever Eucharistic.

Regarding the Eucharistic “Holy Hours”, I would have to disagree with your perception. Most of the time, at these “Holy Hours”, the Blessed Sacrament is exposed, 45 minutes of praise and worship follows (which prohibit me from spending “quiet time” with the Eucharistic Lord, or from even seeing him, because sometimes I would kneel and the guys in front of me would be waving their arms), and then 5 or so minutes of silence follows, and then comes benediction. Sometimes, the P&W would come to a halt halfway through so the priest could give a homily at the ambo (Blessed Sacrament exposed out of the corner of the eye on the altar).

BTW, I think I have a picture of that bald guy too at a FOP.

As for “Slain in the Spirit”, I have long been skeptical, and one priest tried to “slay” me one time for pushing me, but in July, I really was slain in the spirit. I was always a believer in it - I just didn’t think (and still don’t) it happened as often as people led me to believe it did.

 

[Michael_Saint]

Mickey is speaking primarily about the monthly “Festivals of Praise” on campus. Some of us do not share his appraisal of those prayer meetings. The fact that FUS’s teaching remains firmly orthodox seems to belie the possibility that the Charismatic elements are demonic in origin. If that were the case, I’d suspect their theology to be pretty heretical. Lex orandi, Lex credendi and all.

I don’t think any of the theology professors are hard-core charismatics or charismatics at all - with the exception of Dr. Schreck, and although I like him as a teacher and as a believer (he is a very nice and I think holy man too), I do believe his theology to be a bit “off”, “tainted”, if you will. But still for the most part quite solid.

And that is why I think there is a value to the Charismatic Renewal - because one thing I have noticed about Charismatics is that many of them have witnessed to us about love and what it is like to act like a Christian, similar to St. Paul’s moral injunctions found in the Breviary (morning and evening prayer). I think this was necessary as the “Tridentine Church” (Soren1 is going to go nuts now) was often quite cold and hypocritical. I love the Tridentine Mass, but I struggle with many of the people that attend, because a good number of them are rude, negative, almost always angry, almost obsessive about liturgical abuses, and paranoid.

Dr. Schreck, though he might be a bit off theologically, acts like a Christian. On the contrary, his colleague across the hallway, though his Catholic knowledge is incredible, is quite smug and rude. It would be nice if the Traditionalists could learn to be more charitable and joyful, and if Charismatics could learn to be more attentive to dogma. I think there is room for mutual enrichment here, and maybe that is what the Charismatic Renewal has come to bring to the table, and not all these “gifts”, per se.

 

[Michael_Saint]

I went to the Charismatic Conference this summer, and yes, you pretty much hit the nail on the head. There was a “healing service”, where the “faith healer” (though he did not refer to himself as such), after he led the people in a healing prayer, invited people to come up in various groups, according to various healings. So, we had the people who no longer needed crutches come up, and they were invited to run across the stage, and the attendees applauded wildly. We had the next group who had their hearing miraculously restored, come up, stand in a line, and hold up their hearing aids. The “faith healer” would interview certain people individually on their illnesses, how long they were ill, how bad it was, and how it was now, etc.

To anyone who has done research into this phenomenon, ie. the power of suggestion, euphoria and adrenalyne, “planting” people, etc., what they said would probably apply here. Although I am sure some were healed, I think other things could account for many of the others.

 

[Flame_of_Christ]

And probably the greatest grace you will find when you open up to the Baptism in the Holy Spirit is just this: To God be the glory, because the reason why charismatics have that kind of love is not because of us, but becuase the Holy Spirit, love Himself, is more active in our lives. Nobody is going to “learn” to be more loving! If that were possible, we wouldn’t need our Savior to die for us and give us His Spirit in the first place. No. What you can do instead of “learning” so much, is ask the Holy Spirit to fill you and change your heart. Jesus offers this to you, will you open yourself up to Him?

It’s not about you, it’s about Him. He is the Savior.

Call upon Jesus right now to fill you with the Holy Spirit!

 

[Mickey]

Of course it will sound like words that mean nothing to me.

Because gibberish cannot be interpreted.

 

[Mickey]

That is trying to keep them Catholic, when they “like” what they experience in a protestant church.

That is syncretism.

 

[Mickey]

Regarding the seizures and dropping to the ground, this still happens once in a while, though in contexts outside the Mass.

Yikes!

 

[Mickey]

The problem with Franciscan is not the orthodoxy - the theology taught there is probably the best in the country. I would say the main problem is the Pentecostal mentality that permeates the campus and affects the students.

Yes. And that is what I am trying to portray here. It is confusing. Here is a University which is known for it’s orthodox Catholic teaching, but it has this odd heterodox pentecostal mentality.

We must remember that the Charismatic Renewal is nothing but Protestant Pentecostalism brought into the Catholic Church wholesale, without being “tempered” or “purified” by Catholicism.

Exactly!

 

[Mickey]

Mickey, I think you are being too hard on the Charismatic Renewal.

I am sorry. And I do not mean to attack anyone individually. But the Holy Orthodox Church teaches that this movement is heretical.

As for barking, seizures, etc., the Pentecostal Protestants might have been okay with this, but as time has gone on, the Catholic Church has curbed these tendencies and provided guidance for better discernment.

But they hold onto gibberish tongues, being slain in the spirit, and other heterodox oddities.

You cite some bishops in the 1970s about the dangers of the Charismatic Renewal, and I don’t blame them for being concerned, because the movement in the 1970s were a storehouse for some of the craziest things. But like I said, over time, much of this has been corrected.

I’ll bet there are still unhappy bishops.

Steubenville, for instance, is not nearly as “charismatic” as it used to be.

I hope you are correct.

 

[Mickey]

I went to the Charismatic Conference this summer, and yes, you pretty much hit the nail on the head. There was a “healing service”, where the “faith healer” (though he did not refer to himself as such), after he led the people in a healing prayer, to come up in various groups, according to various healings. So, we had the people who no longer needed crutches come up, and they were invited to run across the stage, and the attendees applauded wildly. We had the next group who had their hearing miraculously restored, come up, stand in a line, and hold up their hearing aids. The “faith healer” would interview certain people individually on their illnesses, how long they were ill, how bad it was, and how it was now, etc.

Just like Benny Hinn.

 

[Mickey]

What you can do instead of “learning” so much, is ask the Holy Spirit to fill you and change your heart.

We are filled with the Holy Spirit at our sacramental baptism. As far as changing the heart----we are called to a process of metanoia (a change of heart and mind) throughout our entire lives. This does not happen with gibberish tongues, or being slain in the spirit, or odd faith healers, etc. This happens through trying to live an ascetical life; participating in the sacraments (especially the Holy Eucharist); much prayer; spiritual warfare against the passions; and developing the virtues.

Do not be fooled by the non-patristic novelties of the protestant charismatic revivalist movement.

Be watchful!!!

 

[Flame_of_Christ]

Honestly, we should be more watchful of you. You are a person who has left the catholic church. We need not follow your wisdom lest we also be led astray. Thank God Almighty for the Holy Catholic Church who guides us.

You should know that your claims here are you basically saying that you are wiser than the last three popes and countless bishops who have all approved of the Catholic Charismatic Renewal. I am not sure if you realize that you are claiming this for yourself. Do you realize that you are claiming to understand Jesus better than them all? I suppose you know better. hmmph!

Why did you leave the Catholic Church by the way?