Franciscan University

[rtconstant]

And the Roman Catholic Church has given birth to this protestant charismatic movement. It is a strange enigma.

I’d say its less given birth and more tolerating currently. While I agree with you that the Charismatic movement isn’t patristic, it is also far from completely negative. I agree that it is an innovation and that it is likely of Protestant origin. However, most Charismatic Catholics are rather conservative doctrinally, and the movement currently seems to encourage that attitude.

While Islam and secularism are the bugbears of the East, Relativism and secularism are the bugbears of the West. So Rome is probably not going to to look to critically at a movement that is at least loyal. Now if the movement ever starts going off the deep end doctrinally like the Protestant version has done, or it starts having regular abuses it may become a different story. But your Orthodox you know the drill. The Church usually doesn’t rouse itself until something becomes an “issue.”

 

[Mickey]

However, most Charismatic Catholics are rather conservative doctrinally, and the movement currently seems to encourage that attitude.

And this was one of my points. There is a type of fusion going on here. An innovation being mixed with doctrinal conservatism. Could that be classified as truth mixed with lies? Some of the worst early heresies were very doctrinally conservative movements with a little twist.

While Islam and secularism are the bugbears of the East, Relativism and secularism are the bugbears of the West.

Islam has no part in the doctrine or theology of the Eastern Catholics or Eastern Orthodox–although many martyrs were created. And secularism/relativism is an enemy to ALL borders.

Now if the movement ever starts going off the deep end doctrinally like the Protestant version has done, or it starts having regular abuses it may become a different story. But your Orthodox you know the drill. The Church usually doesn’t rouse itself until something becomes an “issue.”

I believe that it is already an issue. I believe it has already gone off the deep end in many instances. The bishops need to speak out. When I was Roman Catholic, I was appalled by the “Catholic” retreat centers that were being run by the nuns. These retreat centers offrerd the following experiences to the people: enneagram, reiki, mandalas, labyrinth walking, eco-spirtuality, and much more. I wrote letters to those in high places. But these retreat centers are ignored by the bishops. There are many of these centers, and they are permitted to remain open and lead people astray. Does this mean that the Catholic Church approves of these new age and hinduistic practices? No.

But ignoring problems do not make them go away.

God bless you.

 

[Flame_of_Christ]

You can judge the renewal based upon what it has done for catholics who have participated. In the prayer group I belong to, we have had alot of young adults return to the church after going througha life in the Spirit seminar and being baptised in the Holy Spirit. They are now going to mass again ( and several times a week I might add!). They also are readings scripture, praying more often, and have been changed from people of the world to people who are on a path within the Church. We teach them to love the church and all of her teachings.

How can you say this is a bad thing when the fruits have been so good?

I do want to say sorry for not taking the time to be patient about this, I got a little forceful there. Please forgive me for that.

 

[Flame_of_Christ]

In the early church, when people were baptised, many would prophecy, speak in tongues and receive other charismatic gifts. This is not only biblical, but it is also patristic. I would offer to those of you who really have an interest in this to read some books about this. Fr. Kilian Mcdonnell has written one on this. He cites the early church fathers nearly a hundred times.

here is a link to buy the book:

amazon.com/Christian-Initiation-Baptism-Holy-Spirit/dp/0814650090/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1259696437&sr=8-3

 

[Flame_of_Christ]

God gave me this word today concerning this discussion:

“Live at peace among all people, and the God of peace will be with you.”

In that, I want to say sorry for not being peaceful with you all. May Jesus Christ bless your life mightily. I do hope that you would see the beauty of this renewal, it helps us to come to life!

 

[Mickey]

You can judge the renewal based upon what it has done for catholics who have participated. In the prayer group I belong to, we have had alot of young adults return to the church after going througha life in the Spirit seminar and being baptised in the Holy Spirit.

What do you mean by baptized in the Holy Spirit. Were these people never baptized and Confirmed?

 

[Mickey]

In the early church, when people were baptised, many would prophecy, speak in tongues and receive other charismatic gifts. This is not only biblical, but it is also patristic.

Apostolic times were a unique period rich with extraordinary and supernatural phenomena for the history of mankind. The Lord God set out to make *new creations *through the saving grace of His Son and implemented into perfection through the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit endowed men and women with many gifts in order to bring this about. One of its gifts during New Testament times was Glossolalia. But even from New Testament times, it would seem Glossolalia began to phase out. St. Paul, it seems, indicates later in chapter 14 that Glossolalia should be minimized and understood preaching maximized. Justin Martyr, a prolific mid-century writer lists several kinds of gifts but does not mention Glossolalia. Chrysostom wrote numerous homilies on Books of the New Testament during the fourth century but does not appear to make mention of Glossolalia as noted in First Corinthians.
orthodoxresearchinstitute.org/articles/misc/nicozisin_tongues.htm

 

[Mickey]

I want to say sorry for not being peaceful with you all. May Jesus Christ bless your life mightily. I do hope that you would see the beauty of this renewal, it helps us to come to life!

I also pray that you find peace on your journey toward eternity. Through repentance, asceticism, ceaseless prayer, and contrition of heart, we will continually undergo metanoia as we deepen our relationship with Christ. It is a life long struggle. But it is blessed.

 

[Flame_of_Christ]

Baptism in the Spirit is nothing new. It is the effect of our saying yes to the sacrament of Baptism. Sacramental theology is clear about our part in receiving the sacraments. They do not operate on their own, but require our cooperation to be effective. They are not magic rituals but an encounter with God.

“He who believes and is baptised will be saved, but he who does not believe will be condemned.” Says our Lord in Mt. 16:16 re-read that a few times and you will see the sacrametal teaching in it.

So baptism without faith will not save us. Baptism in the Spirit is the effect of someone who both believes and is baptised. It has always existed in the Church. I was baptised as a baby and yet, I was away from the church for 20 years, not believing in God, and so I know what is means to be baptised in the Spirit. My faith came alive when this event happened to me. Call it what you will.

 

[Flame_of_Christ]

In the article you posted, it clearly states that the kind of tongues that we pray in are a real gift of the Holy Spirit. I encourage you to take up that author on his word.

I will tell you the truth, when I pray in tongues the peace of God comes upon me many times, during this prayer the gift of prophecy also comes to me sometimes. If you open yourself up to these charismatic gifts, the Lord may bestow them upon you. But he can’t do so if you refuse the gift of the Spirit.

 

[fish90]

Please understand that the Popes have cautiously supported the Renewal. I personally have my concerns (Paul says speaking in tounges will cease 1 Corinthians 13:8, who determines if demons are not entering bodies, who is in charge of such a movement.)

The position of determining whether the Charismatic Catholic Renewal is heretical is not up to me. I submit this decision to the bishops and the Magisterium.

Hey Micky, will you start a thread on the Orthodox belief that the Catholics entered into schism? I would love to hear the evidence and the Catholic defense, of course.

 

[Harpazo]

Please understand that the Popes have cautiously supported the Renewal. I personally have my concerns (Paul says speaking in tounges will cease 1 Corinthians 13:8, who determines if demons are not entering bodies, who is in charge of such a movement.)

The position of determining whether the Charismatic Catholic Renewal is heretical is not up to me. I submit this decision to the bishops and the Magisterium.

Hey Micky, will you start a thread on the Orthodox belief that the Catholics entered into schism? I would love to hear the evidence and the Catholic defense, of course.

I cringed whenever nuns or priests would talk about it. Some other posters on here have said that three popes have endorsed the CCR. If that is the case, what does one do in your position?

In Christ,
Andrew

 

[fish90]

I cringed whenever nuns or priests would talk about it. Some other posters on here have said that three popes have endorsed the CCR. If that is the case, what does one do in your position?

In Christ,
Andrew

Keep the faith and always trust the Church to not teach error. They cautiously supported not endorsed if that is the correct term from my understanding.

I also cannot forget that people like Pope Benedict XVI has a MUCH better understanding of things than myself.

Please correct me if I am wrong.

 

[OmegaSupreme]

Keep the faith and always trust the Church to not teach error. They cautiously supported not endorsed if that is the correct term from my understanding.

I also cannot forget that people like Pope Benedict XVI has a MUCH better understanding of things than myself.

Please correct me if I am wrong.

Those are my thoughts exactly.

 

[Mickey]

Baptism in the Spirit is nothing new. It is the effect of our saying yes to the sacrament of Baptism.

The Roman Catholics call it “confirmation” (chrismation).

“He who believes and is baptised will be saved, but he who does not believe will be condemned.” Says our Lord in Mt. 16:16 re-read that a few times and you will see the sacrametal teaching in it.

I know that many protestant sects use this verse to defend adult believer’s baptism as they denounce infant baptism. But what do you think it means?

Baptism in the Spirit is the effect of someone who both believes and is baptised. It has always existed in the Church.

It is called adult baptism.

I was baptised as a baby and yet, I was away from the church for 20 years, not believing in God,

I hope you are not saying that infant baptism was not sufficient for you. That is a protestant argument. But then again, I believe that the RC charismatic renewal carries a protestant spirit.

and so I know what is means to be baptised in the Spirit. My faith came alive when this event happened to me. Call it what you will.

What exactly happened to you when you received this so-called, “baptism in the Spirit”?

 

[Mickey]

In the article you posted, it clearly states that the kind of tongues that we pray in are a real gift of the Holy Spirit. I encourage you to take up that author on his word.

Read the article again. Tongues were are real gift in the New Testament Church. But they fell out of use.

After the first or perhaps the second century there is no record of it (tongues) in any Orthodox source, and it is not recorded as occurring even among the great Fathers of the Egyptian desert, who were so filled with the Spirit of God that they performed numerous astonishing miracles, including raising the dead.
orthodoxphotos.com/readings/sign/tongues.shtml

I will tell you the truth, when I pray in tongues the peace of God comes upon me many times, during this prayer the gift of prophecy also comes to me sometimes. If you open yourself up to these charismatic gifts, the Lord may bestow them upon you. But he can’t do so if you refuse the gift of the Spirit.

I will not open myself to something that does not have patristic support. The devil can appear as an angel of light.

 

[Mickey]

The position of determining whether the Charismatic Catholic Renewal is heretical is not up to me. I submit this decision to the bishops and the Magisterium.

There is no ex-cathedra statement on this so-called “charismatic renewal”. The bishops (and the pope) are merely expressing an opinion.

Hey Micky, will you start a thread on the Orthodox belief that the Catholics entered into schism? I would love to hear the evidence and the Catholic defense, of course.

LOL! There have been many threads on that one. It usually descends into a lack of charity on both sides. I am weary of that subject.

 

[Mickey]

I cringed whenever nuns or priests would talk about it. Some other posters on here have said that three popes have endorsed the CCR. If that is the case, what does one do in your position?

They have endorsed it (as opinion). But they do not get specific.

 

[Joe_5859]

Keep the faith and always trust the Church to not teach error. They cautiously supported not endorsed if that is the correct term from my understanding.

I also cannot forget that people like Pope Benedict XVI has a MUCH better understanding of things than myself.

Please correct me if I am wrong.

I’m not sure where you’re getting the idea that their support is “cautious.” Look at the links I gave in post #19 to various papal addresses. They’re all pretty positive.

Grant it, I don’t believe there has been (or will be) any official, infallible “stamp of approval.” That’s not how these things work. But it seems they’ve affirmed the movement in as strong a terms as they ever would.

 

[novaslasher]

I cringed whenever nuns or priests would talk about it. Some other posters on here have said that three popes have endorsed the CCR. If that is the case, what does one do in your position?

In Christ,
Andrew

I have to admit I find speaking in tongues disturbing. I’ve seen it done at a healing mass.

It’s not that I believe that it isn’t a gift of the Holy Spirit, it’s just that I have real doubts whether speaking gibberish is real and not a psychological reaction caused by frenzied emotionalism. Now, if I ever saw a family member or close friend speak in a foreign tongue they did not know through natural means while praying (as described in the book of Acts during pentecost), then I would recognize that as genuine tongues.

I could be wrong, so I defer to the judgment of the Magisterium. Still, I hold the personal opinion that things like “being slain in the spirit”, “holy laughter”, and speaking gibberish have psychological origins rather than spiritual. It doesn’t mean that people who do this are bad people or irrational people. That’s why those people can still bear “good fruits” and do many good things outside their pentacostal meetings. The hyper emotionalism can provide fuel to a genuine spiritual fire and result in good things. I just don’t believe that most of the Pentacostal activities are really supernatural events.