Franciscan University

[fish90]

I’m not sure where you’re getting the idea that their support is “cautious.” Look at the links I gave in post #19 to various papal addresses. They’re all pretty positive.

Grant it, I don’t believe there has been (or will be) any official, infallible “stamp of approval.” That’s not how these things work. But it seems they’ve affirmed the movement in as strong a terms as they ever would.

I read:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Charismatic_Renewal#Reaction_from_the_Church_hierarchy

Look under “Reaction from Church Hierarchy.”

I am not expert on this matter, so I only express my opinion.

 

[fish90]

I thought that the topic of private revelation will help aide the discussion in favor of the Charismatic Catholic Renewal. Let’s talk for example Marian apparitions. That is a private revelation. Catholics are not required to believe in them, except for the viewer of the revelation who has a duty to check its Orthodoxy and follow the apparition.

Good Catholics will not be punished for not believing private revelation.

Is the Charismatic Catholic Renewal a form of private revelation?

 

[Joe_5859]

I thought that the topic of private revelation will help aide the discussion in favor of the Charismatic Catholic Renewal. Let’s talk for example Marian apparitions. That is a private revelation. Catholics are not required to believe in them, except for the viewer of the revelation who has a duty to check its Orthodoxy and follow the apparition.

Good Catholics will not be punished for not believing private revelation.

Is the Charismatic Catholic Renewal a form of private revelation?

I don’t think it would be considered private revelation. Nothing is being revealed. It’s simply one of the new ecclesial movements that have cropped up since Vatican II, such as the Neocatechumenal Way.

The concept of it being a perfectly acceptable option for the Catholic faithful, though not obligatory, is similar to how (approved) private revelation is treated, though.

 

[juliamajor]

The thread should be renamed"why I’m not Orthodox".I 'm very happy and now more happier then ever to be Catholic.I used to be attracted to Orthodoxy but you’all convinced me otherwise.Keep writing Mickey, Harpazo and brigantine.You’ll bring more folks into Catholicism! Keep the em coming!

 

[Mickey]

The thread should be renamed"why I’m not Orthodox".I 'm very happy and now more happier then ever to be Catholic.I used to be attracted to Orthodoxy but you’all convinced me otherwise.Keep writing Mickey, Harpazo and brigantine.You’ll bring more folks into Catholicism! Keep the em coming!

There is no need to be angry and sarcastic. Many of your fellow Catholics feel the same way as the Orthodox regarding this odd protestant charismatic innovation in the Roman Catholic Church.

 

[brigantine]

The thread should be renamed"why I’m not Orthodox".I 'm very happy and now more happier then ever to be Catholic.I used to be attracted to Orthodoxy but you’all convinced me otherwise.Keep writing Mickey, Harpazo and brigantine.You’ll bring more folks into Catholicism! Keep the em coming!

LOL you have to be kidding me? I’m not sure what you found in my postings that angered you about Orthodoxy. Was it my post that I said I’m a former Catholic looking into returning to the Catholic Church? Also, don’t say that these posts are bringing folks to Catholicism because I can assure you this very topic is the cause of many Catholics becoming Orthodox. I will not speak for others but I’m trying to discern what this movement is and what it means for the Church.

 

[Harpazo]

The thread should be renamed"why I’m not Orthodox".I 'm very happy and now more happier then ever to be Catholic.I used to be attracted to Orthodoxy but you’all convinced me otherwise.Keep writing Mickey, Harpazo and brigantine.You’ll bring more folks into Catholicism! Keep the em coming!

Eh?

In Christ,
Andrew

 

[graceandglory]

Gibberish tongues, being slain in the spirit, and the other odd mimicking of the protestant charismatic revival are** not** biblical and **not **approved by any Roman Catholic pope.

Did the pope declare something about gibberish tongues, being slain in the spirit and the other oddities with an ex-cathedra statement? I have never seen this? Has the magisterium come forth with statements on these innovations? Is there anything from the Church Fathers?

You fight it, yet you agree with some of it? Strange dichotomy.

Well, since I haven’t stated where I agree, it’s not a dichotomy.
What I have fought against in my prot churches are just what you mentioned: tongues w/o an interpretation, being slain in the spirit, and other oddities that are not in the bible.

As for the Franciscan University spirit that I do agree with, that my teenage boys like, (THANK GOD I HAVE CATHOLIC KIDS WHO LOVE GOD)would be the more charismatic praise and worship.

Just as an addendum… Isn’t the “baptism of the Holy Spirit” what we received at our Catholic Confirmation? IF anyone is adding an 8th sacrament, then to me, that’s heretical. I remember when I was in a pentecostal “service” and asked if I had ever “received the Holy Spirit” I said, “yeah, when I got Confirmed.” (Needless to say, that didn’t go over very well.)

 

[Mickey]

the more charismatic praise and worship.

What does that mean?

Isn’t the “baptism of the Holy Spirit” what we received at our Catholic Confirmation?

Yes.

 

[Flame_of_Christ]

Well I have tried to present the case for Charismatic Renewal as best as I have been able to. I apologize if I have not done enough good for you folks. I praise our Lord and Savior though! Because once I was blind (no faith in God) but now I see (now a disciple)!

praise Jesus for that!

AMEN!

 

[Flame_of_Christ]

What I want you guys to know is that the sacraments require faith. They are not magic rituals that work outside of our cooperation with God. If you think that a person will automatically go to heaven some day because they were once baptised, they you have misundestood sacramental theology. I would prefer that you read about this on your own as I am not an expert is explaining these things, but I am trying to do my best.

You do know that a baptised person can end up in hell for eternity right? Well that is because the sacrament requires our cooperation with it. Praise God, I think you may understand this.

So, when we are talking about “Baptism in the Holy Spirit” we are not a talking about a new sacrament at all. What we are referring to is the process in which a person comes to open themselves up to the graces of the sacraments.

for example: Me
I was baptised but later ended up with no faith in God. I was an atheist. Now, would you dare say that I would go to heaven as an atheist simply because I was baptised at one point? Of course not!

On theother hand, imagine a person who not only has been baptised but also believes / is open to the grace of the sacrament. That person, according to our Lord, will be saved.

“He who believes and is baptised will be saved, but he who does not believe will be condemned.”
Mk 16:16

Jesus requires faith, and that is what we are speaking of here.

There is no reason to speak against “Baptism in the Holy Spirit” unless of course you are against people who once had no faith coming to believe. Faith in what? Faith in all that our Lord has accomplished.

Baptism in the Holy Spirit is what we all need. It is a coming alive in Christ. It is our yes to the grace of God. You mentioned that this is what confirmation is, but I must tell you that for so many teens, that is simply not what happens. What happens to them is that they fail to do their part in saying yes to God. Sure they go up for the sacrament, but is there a filial “yes” to become a soldier for Christ? Absolutely not the case for so many.

please read this to get a better understanding:
catholiccharismatic.us/ccc/articles/Cantalamessa/Cantalamessa_002.html

 

[Flame_of_Christ]

Read the article again. Tongues were are real gift in the New Testament Church. But they fell out of use.

After the first or perhaps the second century there is no record of it (tongues) in any Orthodox source, and it is not recorded as occurring even among the great Fathers of the Egyptian desert, who were so filled with the Spirit of God that they performed numerous astonishing miracles, including raising the dead.

St. Augustine spoke about tongues, referring to it as “jubilation.” see this link:

74.125.155.132/search?q=cache:icnXTzJDcZQJ:www.fsucatholic.org/theresource/e-tools/A%2520Short%2520Introduction%2520to%2520the%2520Catholic%2520Charismatic%2520Renewal_text.htm.doc+st.+augustine+jubilation&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

Cessasionism (a belief that the charismatic gifts were only in use during the apostolic period) is something that we catholics do not accept, as the saints of our church have always manifested charismatic gifts such as healing, prophecy, and the like. The gifts are still available, as Jesus Christ is the same yesturday, today and forever. All the gifts in fact! Why wouldn’t they still be available? (except of course for lack of faith in them.) This includes the tongues that your orthodox source said were a real gift of the Holy Spirit.

If you accept your source orthodoxresearchinstitute…in_tongues.htm , then you accept that the gift on tongues that we pray with in the same exact way the source describes, is a true gift of the Holy Spirit. The author said it clearly. He only thinks that that gift is not available any longer. However, if you had experienced the love and joy of this gift, you would know that it really still is available today!

Why would you not believe that all the gifts of the Holy Spirit are available in our day?

 

[Mickey]

What I want you guys to know is that the sacraments require faith. They are not magic rituals that work outside of our cooperation with God.

Nobody said they are magic!

You do know that a baptised person can end up in hell for eternity right?

It is not our place to judge who is going where.

So, when we are talking about “Baptism in the Holy Spirit” we are not a talking about a new sacrament at all.

Of course not. That is because it is Chrismation (Confirmation).

“He who believes and is baptised will be saved, but he who does not believe will be condemned.”
Mk 16:16

Of course we must believe. That is the point of being a Christian.

Jesus requires faith

And good works.

There is no reason to speak against “Baptism in the Holy Spirit”

I do not know of any apostolic Christians who speak against Chrismation (Confirmation).

Baptism in the Holy Spirit is what we all need. It is a coming alive in Christ.

It is the sacrament of Chrismation (Confirmation). And that is how it should be referred. What do you think it is?

You mentioned that this is what confirmation is, but I must tell you that for so many teens, that is simply not what happens.

Oh no. Now you are saying that sometimes confirmation is graceless!

What happens to them is that they fail to do their part in saying yes to God. Sure they go up for the sacrament, but is there a filial “yes” to become a soldier for Christ? Absolutely not the case for so many.

You cannot judge people’s hearts. You have no idea!

 

[Mickey]

Cessasionism (a belief that the charismatic gifts were only in use during the apostolic period) is something that we catholics do not accept, as the saints of our church have always manifested charismatic gifts such as healing, prophecy, and the like. The gifts are still available, as Jesus Christ is the same yesturday, today and forever. All the gifts in fact! Why wouldn’t they still be available? (except of course for lack of faith in them.) This includes the tongues that your orthodox source said were a real gift of the Holy Spirit.

The great saints and fathers of the Church sometimes received miraculous gifts of the Holy Spirit. This was after many years of struggling in asceticism. Fighting the passions, ceaseless prayer, etc. They did not ask for these gifts. Most did not want them because it was a temptation to their humility. They did not speak in gibberish tongues. They did not twitch or laugh or bark. They did not get "slain in the Spirit at some revival. They would be saddened to see this so-called “charismatic renewal”.
I urge you to study the lives of the saints.

However, if you had experienced the love and joy of this gift, you would know that it really still is available today!

There is no evidence that they are anything but gibberish tongues.

Why would you not believe that all the gifts of the Holy Spirit are available in our day?

I never said that.

 

[Mickey]

St. Augustine spoke about tongues, referring to it as “jubilation.”

It seems that St Augustine is referring to singing–or more accurately–chanting.

Syllables were often left off during singing(chanting)–referred to as “jubilus”.

St Augustine is surely not referring to the practice of gibberish tongues.

In fact, St Augustine regarded speaking in tongues as a gift reserved for only the New Testament era Church. He argued that this was evident from the fact that his contemporaries did not see people receiving that gift in their own day. Notice how he refers to the sacrament of Chrismation (Confirmation) and Baptism.

In the earliest times, “the Holy Ghost fell upon them that believed: and they spake with tongues”, which they had not learned, “as the Spirit gave them utterance”. These were signs adapted to the time. For there behooved to be that betokening of the Holy Spirit in all tongues, to shew that the Gospel of God was to run through all tongues over the whole earth. That thing was done for a betokening, and it passed away. In the laying on of hands now, that persons may receive the Holy Ghost, do we look that they should speak with tongues? Or when he laid the hand on infants, did each one of you look to see whether they would speak with tongues, and, when he saw that they did not speak with tongues, was any of you so strong-minded as to say, These have not received the Holy Ghost; for, had they received, they would speak with tongues as was the case in those times? If then the witness of the presence of the Holy Ghost be not given through these miracles, by what is it given, by what does one get to know that he has received the Holy Ghost? Let him question his own heart. If he love his brother, the Spirit of God dwelleth in him. (Augustine of Hippo, 354-430)

 

[Mickey]

The heretic Montanus used to speak in tongues:

He became possessed of a spirit, and suddenly began to rave in a kind of ecstatic trance, and to babble in a jargon, prophesying in a manner contrary to the custom of the Church which had been handed down by tradition from the earliest times. (Eusebius, d.c.339)

 

[Mickey]

St John Chrysostom regarded the whole phenomenon of ‘speaking in tongues’ as not only something that was not practised in his own day, but was even obscure.

“This whole phenomenon [of speaking in tongues] is very obscure, but the obscurity is produced by our ignorance of the facts referred to and by their cessation, being such then as used to occur but now no longer take place. And why do they not happen now? Why look now, the cause too of the obscurity hath produced us again another question: namely, why did they then happen, and now do so no more”? (Chrysostom, 344-407)

 

[Flame_of_Christ]

Please re-read my post about Baptism in the Holy Spirit. I would be wrong if I said that confiramtion can sometimes be graceless. However, our openness to the sacrament is quite important. So important that sacraments are called “tied” in sacramental theology. This means that for them to produce in us their effects, we must cooperate with them. This need for our response to the sacraments is why I said that they are not magic rituals.

I know this from first hand experience, for as I mentioned before, I was once a baptised atheist. Seems contradictory right? That is only a possiblity because some people have the sacrament but do not have any faith.

 

[Flame_of_Christ]

so here is the point of all this.

What the Lord is doing through Charismatic Renewal is helping people to have faith. We preach to them about having faith, we preach Jesus Christ crucified and risen for them. We ask them to put their faith in the Lord and to accept that He is their Savior. Once they have begun to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, the graces that have been bound due to lack of faith become alive. People’s lives are being changed through Charismatic Renewal.

We also preach that the Holy Spirit wants to use them for ministry in the Church. They begin to believe that what was available to the early christians is also available to them. That is why so many have received special graces from the Lord Jesus Christ, because as he told us:

“These signs will follow those who believe: in my name, they will cast out demons, they will have the gift of tongues, they will pick up snakes in their hands, and they shall be unharmed if they drink any deadly poison, they will lay their hands on the sick and they will recover.” Mark 16:17-18

We actually believe this! We believe that the promises of God are for you in Jesus Christ. All of them.

Do you know what makes a saint a saint? Because they have faith, deep faith, in Jesus. They believe that they really are receiving God. This is the faith that can move mountains. God wants all of us to become saints. Isn’t that true? If it is true that God wants all of us to become saints, then all that is lacking is our part in the matter. We must say yes to Jesus Christ, believing that what He has said, He will accomplish.

Praise the Lord, He is risen and among us, for real!

 

[Mickey]

Please re-read my post about Baptism in the Holy Spirit. I would be wrong if I said that confiramtion can sometimes be graceless. However, our openness to the sacrament is quite important. So important that sacraments are called “tied” in sacramental theology. This means that for them to produce in us their effects, we must cooperate with them. This need for our response to the sacraments is why I said that they are not magic rituals.

I know this from first hand experience, for as I mentioned before, I was once a baptised atheist. Seems contradictory right? That is only a possiblity because some people have the sacrament but do not have any faith.

And please re-read my posts. I said that it is not your place to judge who has cooperated with the grace of God. You returned to the faith. Perhaps your baptism was more meaningful than you give credit for.