Free Grace Salvation

[QNDNNDQDCE]

Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. (John 6:29)

 

[Cavaradossi]

Are works necessary for salvation. I would say yes. The Confession of Dositheus states, “[Scripture] promises the believer salvation through works” (Decree 3) in its discussion of predestination. On justification, it says,

We believe a man to be not simply justified through faith alone, but through faith which works through love, that is to say, through faith and works. But [the idea] that faith can fulfill the function of a hand that lays hold on the righteousness which is in Christ, and can then apply it unto us for salvation, we know to be far from all Orthodoxy. For faith so understood would be possible in all, and so none could miss salvation, which is obviously false. But on the contrary, we rather believe that it is not the correlative of faith, but the faith which is in us, justifies through works, with Christ. But we regard works not as witnesses certifying our calling, but as being fruits in themselves, through which faith becomes efficacious, and as in themselves meriting, through the Divine promises {cf. 2 Corinthians 5:10} that each of the Faithful may receive what is done through his own body, whether it be good or bad. (Decree 13)

Your example is not a good one either since the penitent thief did exhibit good works, chiefly that of repentance. It’s even in his name! I don’t think it is possible for a rational man to be saved without his cooperation.

Now, the question of infants would require greater precision with our words, but I am content to agree with you that it is required of them to perform good works according to their ability.

Dositheus’ confession needs to be read with the Orthodox doctrine of synergy in mind. Through grace we participate in the energeia of God as the fulfillment of human nature through our baptism in Christ (in whom humanity has been fulfilled by an eternal union with the divine nature). But the energeia of God is rendered inefficacious in us if our ‘manner of existence’ (tropos hyparxeos) is disordered and directed against nature. If we were to die in such a state, we would be consigned to what St. Maximus the Confessor would term ‘eternal ill-being’ (which is nothing else than the experience of eternal damnation). Good works (fasting, the giving of alms, and prayer) in conjunction with the grace of God are able to rectify the manner of one’s existence, eventually bringing one to a state of well-being rather than ill-being. But that does not therefore imply that good works are always absolutely necessary for salvation, because works in conjunction with faith (but never absent of faith) are to be regarded as the ordinary means of our salvation. And where there is no opportunity for the ordinary means of salvation, God can provide for another.

The Good Thief is an example of this. Though I see that you argue that the thief’s repentance is a work, I would have to disagree, otherwise we could excuse this whole faith vs. works debate between the Reformed and the Roman Catholics by calling belief itself a good work and being done with the entire issue (but in the Eastern Tradition, both repentance and faith are regarded not as human works, but as gifts from God, so we could never accept that repentance and faith are good works in the same sense that prayer, fasting, and alms-giving are good works). Rather it seems fair to say that the thief’s experience of conversion and repentance was so profound that it was able to open to him the gates of paradise. We see St. Mark of Ephesus teaching something somewhat similar in his homilies on (or rather perhaps against) the topic of Purgatory, in which he teaches that the fear experienced during death and the separation of the soul from the body is often enough to cleanse those who have died in repentance but who have not yet shown forth the fruits of repentance, while in others it is the prayers of the Church and the supreme goodness of God which accomplishes this for them while they are held in Hades and await their release from there. But since we do not hold that those who have repented but have not yet shown forth the fruits of repentance (i.e., good works) are hopelessly damned, we cannot say that good works are absolutely necessary for salvation.

 

[Cavaradossi]

Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. (John 6:29)

But belief is not a good work of man, according to this very verse; rather it is a work of God himself (and indeed, in Orthodoxy, we teach that faith is a gift from God).

 

[fhansen]

But belief is not a good work of man, according to this very verse; rather it is a work of God himself (and indeed, in Orthodoxy, we teach that faith is a gift from God).

And we believe that the works God prepares for us to do are also gifts from Him.

 

[QNDNNDQDCE]

Dositheus’ confession needs to be read with the Orthodox doctrine of synergy in mind. Through grace we participate in the energeia of God as the fulfillment of human nature through our baptism in Christ (in whom humanity has been fulfilled by an eternal union with the divine nature). But the energeia of God is rendered inefficacious in us if our ‘manner of existence’ (tropos hyparxeos) is disordered and directed against nature. If we were to die in such a state, we would be consigned to what St. Maximus the Confessor would term ‘eternal ill-being’ (which is nothing else than the experience of eternal damnation). Good works (fasting, the giving of alms, and prayer) in conjunction with the grace of God are able to rectify the manner of one’s existence, eventually bringing one to a state of well-being rather than ill-being. But that does not therefore imply that good works are always absolutely necessary for salvation, because works in conjunction with faith (but never absent of faith) are to be regarded as the ordinary means of our salvation. And where there is no opportunity for the ordinary means of salvation, God can provide for another.

The Good Thief is an example of this. Though I see that you argue that the thief’s repentance is a work, I would have to disagree, otherwise we could excuse this whole faith vs. works debate between the Reformed and the Roman Catholics by calling belief itself a good work and being done with the entire issue (but in the Eastern Tradition, both repentance and faith are regarded not as human works, but as gifts from God, so we could never accept that repentance and faith are good works in the same sense that prayer, fasting, and alms-giving are good works). Rather it seems fair to say that the thief’s experience of conversion and repentance was so profound that it was able to open to him the gates of paradise. We see St. Mark of Ephesus teaching something somewhat similar in his homilies on (or rather perhaps against) the topic of Purgatory, in which he teaches that the fear experienced during death and the separation of the soul from the body is often enough to cleanse those who have died in repentance but who have not yet shown forth the fruits of repentance, while in others it is the prayers of the Church and the supreme goodness of God which accomplishes this for them while they are held in Hades and await their release from there. But since we do not hold that those who have repented but have not yet shown forth the fruits of repentance (i.e., good works) are hopelessly damned, we cannot say that good works are absolutely necessary for salvation.

The Orthodox doctrine of synergy is irrelevant because Catholics also teach synergy. Synergy is the whole point. If salvation is dependent on synergy, then salvation is dependent on works. There is the work of God and there is the work of man, and the two work together in harmony for man’s salvation. This includes repentance, which is an act (or work) of the will. If you want to re-define a work as “fasting, the giving of alms, and prayer,” that’s fine as long as you specify what you mean and do not attack others who define it differently because it’s not a very objective definition.

To use the word “work” as if it could only refer to external acts (such as feeding the poor) to the exclusion of internal ones is a misrepresentation of the faith-works controversy between Catholics and Protestants. The Protestant position is not faith is the only work that justifies us. The debate is rooted in the very nature of justification. Protestants say that justification is solely by the imputation of the alien righteousness of Christ, whereas Catholics say that God makes man formally just by the infusion of grace. Understood in that way, you can see that Protestants do not admit faith in any way as a basis of justification since our merits are not considered whatsoever.

But belief is not a good work of man, according to this very verse; rather it is a work of God himself (and indeed, in Orthodoxy, we teach that faith is a gift from God).

It most certainly is a work of man if we speak in reference to the agent. The expression “work of God” in this context has the meaning of “godly work.” Recall that Christ’s answer is a response to the Jews’ question: “What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?” You are correct that man is moved to faith by God and could be called a work of God in that sense, and he communicates this truth elsewhere in the chapter (see v. 44), but it is not the intended meaning in this particular verse.

 

[QNDNNDQDCE]

And we believe that the works God prepares for us to do are also gifts from Him.

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them (Ephesians 2:10).

 

[aidanbradypop]

Anyone who does not provide for their relatives, and especially for their own household, has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever. 1Tim 5:8

You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone. James 2:24

I do not disagree. I believe we all should live out our faith.

I believe “good works” makes it sound like we are working for something. Charity is actually probably the better word we should us. Charity is done with the expectation of nothing in return. We do this things because we love God and wish to serve Him here on earth. Right?

 

[fhansen]

I do not disagree. I believe we all should live out our faith.

I believe “good works” makes it sound like we are working for something. Charity is actually probably the better word we should us. Charity is done with the expectation of nothing in return. We do this things because we love God and wish to serve Him here on earth. Right?

Yes, charity is our justice, our righteousness, a virtue which God molds into us. This is how the New Covenant prophecies of Jer 31 are fulfilled, as He becomes our God again and begins to write His laws in our minds.

** “…I have a faith that can move mountains but have not love, I am nothing**” 1 Cor 13

"The only thing that counts is faith working through love." Gal 5:6

 

[aidanbradypop]

Yes, charity is our justice, our righteousness, a virtue which God molds into us. This is how the New Covenant prophecies of Jer 31 are fulfilled, as He becomes our God again and begins to write His laws in our minds.

** “…I have a faith that can move mountains but have not love, I am nothing**” 1 Cor 13

"The only thing that counts is faith working through love." Gal 5:6

So let us look back at the OP…“While we do not believe good works are meritorious in obtaining salvation, we do believe that good works are an evidence of salvation.”

Now you and I will believe that works alone cannot save us, yet faith without work is dead.

What the statement of faith that I posted in the first post and a part here is that good works are not meritorious of obtaining salvation. I guess the question would be are they stating “alone” or at all because they go on to state the works or evidence of salvation. Another question would be to them…if someone does not produce fruit, are they saved?

 

[Kliska]

This is a possible difference. Some Protestants believe that salvation is by works, only that man is unable to keep the law totally without fault due to Adam’s sin. Therefore, Christ came to keep the law perfectly in our stead, and his perfect law-keeping is “imputed” to our account. Catholic doctrine is that salvation has always been through grace because heaven (the beatific vision) is infinitely disproportionate to human nature and it cannot be merited by mere human acts apart from grace. We require God’s grace in order for our acts to be elevated beyond nature if they are to be in any sense meritorious. We believe that when Paul writes, “if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law” (Gal. 3:21), he does not mean this accidentally because of man’s inability to keep the law, but because natural human acts considered in themselves do not merit the kingdom of God.

This is an area where I believe our thoughts do line up. Instead of being an either/or proposition, it would be akin to a both/and.

What is your definition of sheep?

This is an area too where I believe there can be some confusion, as several parables and phrases refer to sheep. From God’s perspective sheep are sheep and goats, goats. He knows which are which, and we are told Jesus’ sheep are those that respond to His voice. To follow the metaphors a sheep is always a sheep, and can’t become a goat, nor a goat a sheep.

Someone who has been redeemed by the blood of Christ? If so, this passage cannot be interpreted to be referring to someone who is not a sheep because it explicitly states the contrary. Thus the common assertion that Paul is speaking “hypothetically” about something that is not actually possible.

If you don’t mind quote again the exact portion you see as stating the person or people in question were redeemed by the blood.

Yes, we believe that it is possible for someone to be forgiven if they repent. There are some confusing verses that have to be addressed, but none that force us to say that the Scripture is raving about impossibilities.

Interesting. I didn’t know the teaching on this, thank you!

 

[fhansen]

So let us look back at the OP…“While we do not believe good works are meritorious in obtaining salvation, we do believe that good works are an evidence of salvation.”

Now you and I will believe that works alone cannot save us, yet faith without work is dead.

What the statement of faith that I posted in the first post and a part here is that good works are not meritorious of obtaining salvation. I guess the question would be are they stating “alone” or at all because they go on to state the works or evidence of salvation. Another question would be to them…if someone does not produce fruit, are they saved?

I believe that this is what the Parable of the Talents is getting at. The servant who refused to “invest” what he was given lost place in the kingdom. Justification is freely given initially; there’s nothing we can do to earn it, but we can reject it, and afterwards we can forfeit it. This only means that, as we come to believe and are baptized, we’re made authentically just, we’re placed back to the status of Adam, forgiven of our sins, washed clean, nothing standing in the way between us and heaven, between us and God.

But it doesn’t end there; we’re to remain in communion with Him, in this state of grace; He won’t force us to stay turned towards Him any more than He forced Adam to. In fact that’s the whole point; God wants us to freely choose Him, and He’ll help us to make and strengthen that choice. We’re to grow in justice, more being expected of us the more we’re given- the more time, opportunity, and grace we receive. There’s no limit to the justice we can grow in because there’s no limit to love, which is our justice. This is what faith is meant to lead to, as it reestablishes communion with God, the very source of man’s righteousness, because He’s the very source of love.

 

[aidanbradypop]

I believe that this is what the Parable of the Talents is getting at. The servant who refused to “invest” what he was given lost place in the kingdom. Justification is freely given initially; there’s nothing we can do to earn it, but we can reject it, and afterwards we can forfeit it. This only means that, as we come to believe and are baptized, we’re made authentically just, we’re placed back to the status of Adam, forgiven of our sins, washed clean, nothing standing in the way between us and heaven, between us and God.

But it doesn’t end there; we’re to remain in communion with Him, in this state of grace; He won’t force us to stay turned towards Him any more than He forced Adam to. In fact that’s the whole point; God wants us to freely choose Him, and He’ll help us to make and strengthen that choice. We’re to grow in justice, more being expected of us the more we’re given- the more time, opportunity, and grace we receive. There’s no limit to the justice we can grow in because there’s no limit to love, which is our justice. This is what faith is meant to lead to, as it reestablishes communion with God, the very source of man’s righteousness, because He’s the very source of love.

Right.

As an Episcopalian…I do not subscribe to the notion of Free Grace as say a Baptist or Evangelical may see it. I acknowledge that the Grace for God is free and completely a gift, but like yourself, I do not believe simply stops there.

I often hear from fundamentalist Protestants…“Can a person get ‘saved’ in the Episcopal Church?” The answer is an absolute “YES!” Often, there is the follow up question, “When were you saved?” My response is “I was saved in the year 33AD by a man hanging on a cross between heaven and earth on a filthy hillside just outside of Jerusalem, and I am being saved as this same man, who rose in victory over the grave and death, lives to interceed for me at the right hand of God. And more, I will be saved when he comes again in glory to judge the living and the dead–pick one, but I live in all three catogories according to the Scriptures…”

Here are four aspects of an Anglican understanding of salvation.

1. We believe salvation begins with baptism. In baptism we are reborn by the Holy Spirit. (So, if anyone asks you if you are born again, the answer can always be “yes” if you are baptized.
2. The salvation process is nurtured by the Eucharist – that great rehearsal and celebration of our salvation. The consecrated bread and wine are the food for the Christian traveler. Eucharist is central to our lives as Christian pilgrims.
3. We stumble and fall, and then pick ourselves up again and keep on going. We stray and we return. As we receive communion we should say: “Out with self, out with envy, out with anger and self-centeredness, out with greed. In with Jesus, in with love, in with compassion, in with patience, in with understanding, in with love.” Our goal is to be able to say with Saint Paul: “It is not I, but Christ who is within me.”
4. Finally, honesty with ourselves is paramount. If life is a continuing process toward salvation, then continual repentance is key. And there is no true repentance without brutal honesty with oneself. You can’t fake repentance.

So is Grace from God free? Sure it is. A gift is always free or it would not be a gift. However, there are things we must do as faithful Christians to hold strong to the Grace.

 

[Kliska]

If a sheep runs away from the flock and from the shepherd, does the shepherd allow them to remain lost? Or does the shepherd leave the flock in safety and go retrieve the sheep? This is an active sense, not passive, even like the prodigal son always being the son. The son was smart enough to return, but we are more often called sheep. Sheep get lost, get hurt, and go astray, but our Shepherd promises that He’s a good shepherd and knows how to find them and care for them and never lose a one. My faith is in my Shepherd, not in my sheep brain or capacity.

Would others feel this is taking a parable too far?

 

[aidanbradypop]

Maybe just a weeee bit lol

 

[fhansen]

If a sheep runs away from the flock and from the shepherd, does the shepherd allow them to remain lost? Or does the shepherd leave the flock in safety and go retrieve the sheep? This is an active sense, not passive, even like the prodigal son always being the son. The son was smart enough to return, but we are more often called sheep. Sheep get lost, get hurt, and go astray, but our Shepherd promises that He’s a good shepherd and knows how to find them and care for them and never lose a one. My faith is in my Shepherd, not in my sheep brain or capacity.

Would others feel this is taking a parable too far?

Wasn’t Adam one of His sheep? He may come after us but won’t make us come back or stay with Him, and the NT is filled with references to just this situation. God desires that none should perish-and yet some do according to our faith. The Shepard is good and trustworthy; we’re the wild card. As Augustine said:

The God who gave you free will won’t violate it to save you.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

If a sheep runs away from the flock and from the shepherd, does the shepherd allow them to remain lost? Or does the shepherd leave the flock in safety and go retrieve the sheep? This is an active sense, not passive, even like the prodigal son always being the son. The son was smart enough to return, but we are more often called sheep. Sheep get lost, get hurt, and go astray, but our Shepherd promises that He’s a good shepherd and knows how to find them and care for them and never lose a one. My faith is in my Shepherd, not in my sheep brain or capacity.

Would others feel this is taking a parable too far?

What happens when the sheep becomes a branch?

John 15:1 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch of mine that bears no fruit, he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already made clean by the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me. 5 I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in me, and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If a man does not abide in me, he is cast forth as a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned.

The moment we lose repentance or we accept sin as just a commonality or we fool ourselves that our future sins are forgiven without confessing and repenting - we are gone

We also have the forgiveness factor:

Matthew 6:15 but if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

So the counter would be:

What happens to this sheep that runs away doesn’t repent, doesn’t confess, doesn’t forgive, and doesn’t strive to obey Christ commandments?

 

[Kliska]

Wasn’t Adam one of His sheep?

No, he wasn’t, not if we are talking about Jesus. Adam isn’t part of the New Covenant.

He may come after us but won’t make us come back or stay with Him, and the NT is filled with references to just this situation. God desires that none should perish-and yet some do according to our faith. The Shepard is good and trustworthy; we’re the wild card. As Augustine said:

But who is responsible for keeping the sheep? If sheep were responsible for keeping themselves, then why have a shepherd?

The God who gave you free will won’t violate it to save you.

No, not to save. I’m not a Calvinist, and I don’t believe in irresistible grace. However, once we are in Christ we are adopted children of God Himself and put into His care. I’m a daughter of God by adoption and God is the one doing the adopting. Once I’m a sheep in His fold, if I stray, He has the knowledge and the means to put me back in the flock, He does, even if I don’t, by hook or by crook.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

The problem becomes when people think we are saved by grace (unmerited favor), but** then we have to walk worthy**.

But we do! We have to turn away from our old life (Which is exactly what repentance means) and bear the fruit of our vine (Christ), we have to be a light to the world, not because we can do this on our own but because we are **commanded **to. And this can only be accomplished through Christ.

But Paul teaches we are to live by faith.

And love, and good works, and by keeping with good doctrine, teachings and traditions.

He had to teach against the heresy of “we should sin more so grace can abound.” There is a reason that heresy cropped up. We have freedom in Christ, but freedom with responsibility, there are those that want freedom without responsibility, but that’s not repentance and faith.

Sadly I am missing where we are accountable in your posts, thus I don’t see where lies our responsibility in your posts.

As it says, works flow from faith. People are often scared that freedom in Christ means anything goes, but instead we become free by becoming what Paul calls a slave of Christ. When that happens it is the Spirit that leads, guides, and changes the person. We no longer have fences, but a Shepherd who leads and guides, and leaves the 99 to fetch the 1. We don’t keep ourselves, Jesus keeps us.

You cannot separate works from faith. Faith alone is dead, Works alone don’t justify.

See my previous posts about sheeps, branches, goats and crackers

 

[SteveVH]

No, he wasn’t, not if we are talking about Jesus. Adam isn’t part of the New Covenant.

Did Christ not die for Adam?

But who is responsible for keeping the sheep? If sheep were responsible for keeping themselves, then why have a shepherd?

We are sheep with free will. Christ is always there to rescue us, but he will not prevent us from running far away if that is our desire. He waits with open arms for our return, but it is us that must return, just as the prodigal son did. The point is, the prodigal son did not have to return, he chose to return.

No, not to save. I’m not a Calvinist, and I don’t believe in irresistible grace. However, once we are in Christ we are adopted children of God Himself and put into His care. I’m a daughter of God by adoption and God is the one doing the adopting. Once I’m a sheep in His fold, if I stray, He has the knowledge and the means to put me back in the flock, He does, even if I don’t, by hook or by crook.

Whether you want to or not?

 

[Kliska]

What happens when the sheep becomes a branch?

That results in a mixed metaphor.

John 15:1 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch of mine that bears no fruit, he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already made clean by the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me. 5 I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in me, and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If a man does not abide in me, he is cast forth as a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned.

The moment we lose repentance or we accept sin as just a commonality or we fool ourselves that our future sins are forgiven without confessing and repenting - we are gone

Of course I disagree, but the argument could be made for the fact that apostasy is the leaving of Christ, I’ve said previously I’m open to that interpretation. I see nothing here about sin separating us from God once we are a part of Him. Notice that Jesus goes on to describe His commandments; love God, love each other. This, of course, connects nicely to what we can read in 1 John.

We also have the forgiveness factor:

Matthew 6:15 but if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

So the counter would be:

What happens to this sheep that runs away doesn’t repent, doesn’t confess, doesn’t forgive, and doesn’t strive to obey Christ commandments?

If it is truly a sheep, Christ goes and gets him. Many times a sheep cannot find its way back to the flock on its own, it never could. The Shepherd knows who is His and He knows how to get them back. This is not discounting there can be wolves amongst the sheep, and goats masquerading, but He knows them too.