Free Grace Salvation

[Kliska]

Again your robot perspective surfaces. So we are just puppets that get moved around by the Holy Spirit? Is there any accountability in your view?

Again is it your fruit or the fruit of the Spirit? If you get irradiated, do you have any say in how the radiation effects you? The Holy Spirit is the Creator of All and upon faithing on Jesus, He indwells you. Can we even comprehend such a thing? It is your choice to place your faith on Jesus. It is also your choice to heed the Spirit or not.

Are you a Universalist?

Do you know what that is? I answered already; People are going to go to Hell if they do not place their faith on Jesus. A Universalist believes every single human will wind up in Heaven. The way is narrow and few there be that find it. There is a way that seems right, but the end thereof is death.

Will some go to hell? Does that mean that the Holy Spirit has no power? Will some say they believe but deep down in their hearts the belief is too weak, or they stop believing?

The Holy Spirit does not *indwell *non-believers. They are not sealed by Him.

False premise. You seem to have trouble writing your thoughts.

I’m a college level logic prof; what I wrote was not a premise, it is a question. Have you ever met anyone that gave the reason for their sinning as Jesus dying for their sin? I haven’t.

Show exactly how the sheep are on their own in my scenario? Again, there is zero accountability in your perspective.

Quite the contrary, there is utter accountability because we are free. The sheep wanders off; that is the sheep’s fault. If it gets hurt, killed, attacked, etc… that is on its head. However, we have a promise that if we wander we have a Shepherd that literally hunts us down to help us. A good Shepherd that tends His sheep doesn’t leave a wounded sheep out in the wild, but rather brings it back to the fold. Chastisement is another example.

Do you hold to double predestination?

I’ve already explained this; no. I’m not even a Calvinist.

John said that if you say that you have no sin in you - you make Jesus a liar.

John 1:5 This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light and in him is no darkness[d] at all. 6 If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not live according to the truth; 7 but if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin. 8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

He is explaining the salvation message. We have to admit we are sick to admit we need a physician. You left off the idea of the fact you cannot sin. Literally you cannot sin because of becoming a new creature. You have a new situation that only believers have; new man vs. old man. 1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

iRobot again. You have been given the gifts to do good works. It because of Him that you can do good works - but you must do them nonetheless.

Again, whose fruit is it?

No - I put emphasis in obedience.

Obedience in order to what? Just for the sake of obeying, or to maintain your own salvation? Our new relationship with the Father is that we obey because He is our Father and His Spirit is in us and we desire to be conformed to the image of His Son, not to maintain or merit salvation.

 

[SteveVH]

It actually doesn’t especially when one party is seen to be superior to the other party, and the superior party is seen to be the one making the covenant and standing behind it.

You’ll have to be more specific. I fail to grasp what you are trying to say.

 

[Kliska]

Also, “faith” is a noun, not a verb.

Not in the Greek. When you see the word “believe” it should be “faithe” but we don’t have that verb in English.

 

[Kliska]

You’ll have to be more specific. I fail to grasp what you are trying to say.

Poor metaphor: It is like someone co-signing on a loan. The person that co-signs is responsible for payment if the other can’t pay. The idea is that the co-signer can back up the agreement if the signer cannot.

When God makes a covenant, obviously He is a superior party.

 

[Millie123]

Kliska do you think that it doesn’t matter to follow God’s commandments now that you’ve been saved? Because that is the impression that you are giving to me
Since you’ve been saved do you now never lie? Have you now never been uncharitable or unkind to your neighbor? How you now never had any lustful thoughts?
Or have you broken these commandments, but shrug your shoulders at your immoral actions, because you’ve been “saved?”

Sins are a big deal. Breaking God’s commandments is a big deal. If The almighty God himself thought that it was necessary to come to earth born of a virgin. Be betrayed by his apostle. Be tried like a criminal in which he was not. Be stripped naked and flogged for our sins. Have a crown of cruel thorns pierce his skull for your sins. Carry his own cross up to calvary to die. Have cruel nails pierce his limbs and die hanging on a cross…all because of sin. Then how can you treat your sins as if they are no big deal? Even for those little white lies that you told either last week or today…Yeah God himself had to die for those. Think of those little white lies as a painful thorn in our Lord’s skull at the time of his scourging and death.

All men have been redeemed by the death of Christ. But that does not mean that we loose our will to choose sin. Are you telling me that you your have stopped sinning, after you’ve been saved. Even when you choose to tell a little white lie you are choosing by your own will to sin. To me it appears that you are promoting a spiritual laziness. Which is exactly what OSAS appears to be like to me… it’s spiritual laziness. Do you experience sadness over your sins? Regret when you break his commandments? Or are you treating your sins with apathy? Does it no longer matter when you break God’s commandments because you’ve been saved?
I think that you need to look at your sins with more humility. I think that the OSAS doctrine treats salvation with a spiritual vanity. You’ve been saved and so you no longer see the need for conversion and to turn away from sin.

 

[SteveVH]

Poor metaphor: It is like someone co-signing on a loan. The person that co-signs is responsible for payment if the other can’t pay. The idea is that the co-signer can back up the agreement if the signer cannot.

When God makes a covenant, obviously He is a superior party.

The purpose of God’s covenants has always been to bring us into the family of God. The ancient covenants among people of that age and culture forged lifelong bonds of kinship between two tribes, for instance, that previously had been waging war against each other.

The metaphors used to describe the covenant relationship between God and Israel were that of sonship, with God as Israel’s Father, and that of marriage with Israel as God’s bride. The reason that blood was used in these covenants is because family members share the same blood. When Moses administered the covenant ceremony he sprinkled blood both upon the altar (representing God) and on the people, Israel.

After the ceremony there was a covenant meal in which they shared the flesh of the sacrificed animals and ate the meal in God’s presence as a sign of sharing the same body and becoming one flesh (a foreshadowing of the Eucharist).

But there was another aspect of the covenant. They swore by an oath to God that should they break the covenant that the fate of the sacrificed animals would become their fate. It was that serious. Circumcision was used as a sign of the covenant with Abraham meaning that if they broke the covenant then their blood line would be “cut off”, so to speak. It all has to do with being part of a family. That was the ancient meaning of “covenant” in use during biblical times.

The New Covenant is a covenant in Jesus’ blood; the new and everlasting sacrifice. Through the Eucharist we share in the meal; we eat the Lamb and drink his blood and thereby become one flesh with Jesus. This follows the ancient meaning of “covenant” perfectly and was prescribed by Christ himself. We become one flesh and share the same blood making us a part of God’s family.

The idea of “covenant” as a co-signer on a loan was unheard of in Jesus time and prior.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

Again is it your fruit or the fruit of the Spirit? If you get irradiated, do you have any say in how the radiation effects you? The Holy Spirit is the Creator of All and upon faithing on Jesus, He indwells you. Can we even comprehend such a thing? It is your choice to place your faith on Jesus. It is also your choice to heed the Spirit or not.

Then how can you say once saved, always saved?

Do you know what that is? I answered already; People are going to go to Hell if they do not place their faith on Jesus. A Universalist believes every single human will wind up in Heaven. The way is narrow and few there be that find it. There is a way that seems right, but the end thereof is death.

I know what it is - but I have no other option but to believe that you are either a Universalist or a Calvinist.

The Holy Spirit does not *indwell *non-believers. They are not sealed by Him.

It really looks like we are speaking in different languages.

Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they then commit apostasy, since they crucify the Son of God on their own account and hold him up to contempt.

These are clearly people that at one point in time were partakers of the Holy Spirit.

The main problem is what you think apostasy is.

Apostasy is *parapiptō *- and it means to (Strong’s G3895):

to slip aside

1. 
   *]to deviate from the right path, turn aside, wander
   *]to error
   *]to fall away (from the true faith)
   

   I’m a college level logic prof; what I wrote was not a premise, it is a question. Have you ever met anyone that gave the reason for their sinning as Jesus dying for their sin? I haven’t.

   Your question is based on a premise that I did not propose.
   

   Quite the contrary, there is utter accountability because we are free. The sheep wanders off; that is the sheep’s fault. If it gets hurt, killed, attacked, etc… that is on its head. However, we have a promise that if we wander we have a Shepherd that literally hunts us down to help us. A good Shepherd that tends His sheep doesn’t leave a wounded sheep out in the wild, but rather brings it back to the fold. Chastisement is another example.

   Indeed, who are His sheep? And we move full circle - those who confess Him, who repent, and follow His commandments. The wages of sin is death. If I say I have no sin in me - I make Him a liar. We cannot sin when we are in Him - the moment we fall away we do.
   

   I’ve already explained this; no. I’m not even a Calvinist.

   Hard to understand.
   

   He is explaining the salvation message. We have to admit we are sick to admit we need a physician. You left off the idea of the fact you cannot sin. Literally you cannot sin because of becoming a new creature. You have a new situation that only believers have; new man vs. old man. 1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

   I sin every day, and I am pretty sure you do as well.
   
   How do you reconcile these 2 premises in John with the Law of Non-Contradiction?
   

   Again, whose fruit is it?

   The Holy Spirit. But you must bear it and use His gifts.
   

   Obedience in order to what? Just for the sake of obeying, or to maintain your own salvation? Our new relationship with the Father is that we obey because He is our Father and His Spirit is in us and we desire to be conformed to the image of His Son, not to maintain or merit salvation.

   In order to not be cast into the fire.
   
   John 15:1 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch of mine that bears no fruit, he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already made clean by the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me. 5 I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in me, and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If a man does not abide in me, he is cast forth as a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned.
   
   Can you abide in Jesus without the Holy Spirit dwelling in you? No. How then can you be cast forth and be burned?
   
   Matthew 7:21 “Not every one who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers.’
   
   Matthew 24:13 But he who endures to the end will be saved.

 

[Kliska]

You’ve been saved and so you no longer see the need for conversion and to turn away from sin.

I’m going to try to be as clear as I can while, I assure you, I’m sitting here extraordinarily emotional because this is the heart of the gospel and of my life.

When people that believe what I believe preach this, the mistake is thinking that it lets the person off with no feeling of sorrow or contrition and no sanctification; quite the opposite. This position does several things of the utmost importance; Shows that salvation is by grace through faith hinged on a sacrifice that was planned before the foundation of the world. That Jesus, God the Son, volunteered to come here, live a perfect life, be abused, tortured, and crucified by the very people He came to save. He also agreed that while on that cross He would become sin for us, and also fulfill the Law. He pays every penny of payment due to the Father for all our sin, and the Father slammed the Son with all the punishment owed. All of it. Unto death.

The Lamb slain before the foundation of the world then offers us to become a part of something wholly new; a new covenant in which His Righteousness becomes imputed to us, His Spirit indwells us, His blood cleanses us, and He puts us in direct right relationship to God the Father. He says to us that He is our mediator, and He’ll send His Spirit to seal the deal. What is our job? To place all of our trust on Him and everything He has done.

That is how we sign on the dotted line. We have been purchased with a great price, the greatest price anyone or anything has ever paid or will ever pay. I am a slave to Christ. Yes, as Paul says. I am bought and paid for. When the accuser stands against me to the Father and yells and screams about my sin. The Father looks to the Son, not to me. The Son says I’m one of His, and shows His wounds in payment.

We are left with the fact that God the Son left Heaven, came here, suffered and died out of love and out of the fact that we cannot save ourselves. We cannot. God even instituted a system that foreshadowed Christ and set up sacrifices to cover the Israelites’ sin if only they would do thus and so. It wasn’t good enough because mankind cannot ever get it right. Only God could do what God did. So what then? Do we go about sinning merrily on the way? God forbid. We live with the fact that every single time we slip and miss the mark of perfection, the punishment gets heaped on the Lord on the cross. Oh Lord! The One who is perfect and is love and has done this radical thing for me… He is hurt more because of me!

If we meditated on that knowledge and made it personal and called it to mind constantly, we’d be flat on our faces 24 hours a day, crying out to the Lord. The only way through it is to pay attention the Spirit who gives us peace, joy, patience, etc… For God does not want us flat on our faces 24 hours a day, He wants up and about His business guided by the Spirit. And what happens when we sin? If we realize it we repent, ask forgiveness, realize again what Jesus has done and go back to the Father’s business. If we don’t realize or harden our hearts we will be chastised, even to the point of death if need be.

Along this path of sanctification it is the Spirit that changes us and quickens this flesh, and we must rely on Him, not ourselves for the changes we seek. Our job is to yield to the Spirit. The Spirit is the power to change and our yielding is us giving in to it; that is why it is called the fruit of the Spirit. All good things come from God, and if I do anything good it originates from Him and is by His power. If I do wrong it is from sinful flesh, and yet I’m still His slave, for I have given myself to Him, and He holds the bond, I am not my own. He surely will chastise me, but He does so as a Father because through all of this, I’m not just a slave, but a daughter. I’ve been adopted, I’ve also become a part of the body of Christ, and an heir through Him.

And with that, I’m bowing out of the thread. I’ve explained my view. Thank you for all who have dialogued with me on this extraordinarily important topic. Grace and Peace to all those in Christ Jesus.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

I’m going to try to be as clear as I can while, I assure you, I’m sitting here **extraordinarily emotional **because this is the heart of the gospel and of my life.

This is the number one reason why this subject is so hard to engage. We can’t alienate our emotions but we also can’t let them dominate our reason and actions.

And with that, I’m bowing out of the thread. I’ve explained my view. Thank you for all who have dialogued with me on this extraordinarily important topic. Grace and Peace to all those in Christ Jesus.

Too bad. But I respect your wishes.

May I reference you to these sections in the CCC:

MAN’S RESPONSE TO GOD
176 Faith is a personal adherence of the whole man to God who reveals himself. It involves an **assent of the intellect and will **to the self-revelation God has made through his deeds and words.

LIFE IN CHRIST
1747 The right to the exercise of freedom, especially in religious and moral matters, is an inalienable requirement of the dignity of man. But the exercise of freedom does not entail the putative right to say or do anything.

God Bless you,

 

[SteveVH]

As a very old priest and good friend told me once: “Knowledge makes a bloody entrance”.

 

[Lochias]

I

When people that believe what I believe preach this, the mistake is thinking that it lets the person off with no feeling of sorrow or contrition and no sanctification; quite the opposite.

Feelings are meaningless when not paired with action to correct those feelings.

 

[QNDNNDQDCE]

[BIBLEDRB][/BIBLEDRB]

But, would that not be apostasy? What I see Paul as teaching is that if these believers think they can go back to the old covenant, they are sorely mistaken, further emphasizing the idea that once the gospel is even heard, there can be no sacrifice for sin in the old manner. If they attempt to do so, or deny Jesus’ once for all sacrifice they are going to be in extraordinarily bad form come judgment day; they are denying the efficacy and preeminence of Jesus’ sacrifice and trying to force new wine into old wineskins. In effect, they would be putting the blood of animals over Jesus’.

I think we are actually closer to agreement than what we think. lol

Yes, you are right that Paul has apostasy in mind. All I inteded to show was that those who are truly justified can fall from grace. The position I was opposing is the Calvinistic response that anyone who falls away was never a “true believer” to begin with.

That said, I’m not sure it is proper to limit Paul’s words in this passage for apostasy. He says, “if we sin willfully,” not, “if we completely reject the faith.” I don’t want to debate this right now (and I see you already have your hands full), but faith is properly in Catholic terms is more synonymous with belief, and it is possible to merely believe (as the demons do) and not be saved. Secondly, the concept of mortal sin is that it is a turning from God, but it does not necessarily mean that faith is lost.

 

[Miriam1947]

Again is it your fruit or the fruit of the Spirit? If you get irradiated, do you have any say in how the radiation effects you? The Holy Spirit is the Creator of All and upon faithing on Jesus, He indwells you. Can we even comprehend such a thing? It is your choice to place your faith on Jesus. It is also your choice to heed the Spirit or not.

Do you know what that is? I answered already; People are going to go to Hell if they do not place their faith on Jesus. A Universalist believes every single human will wind up in Heaven. The way is narrow and few there be that find it. There is a way that seems right, but the end thereof is death.

The Holy Spirit does not *indwell *non-believers. They are not sealed by Him.

I’m a college level logic prof; what I wrote was not a premise, it is a question. Have you ever met anyone that gave the reason for their sinning as Jesus dying for their sin? I haven’t.

Quite the contrary, there is utter accountability because we are free. The sheep wanders off; that is the sheep’s fault. If it gets hurt, killed, attacked, etc… that is on its head. However, we have a promise that if we wander we have a Shepherd that literally hunts us down to help us. A good Shepherd that tends His sheep doesn’t leave a wounded sheep out in the wild, but rather brings it back to the fold. Chastisement is another example.

I’ve already explained this; no. I’m not even a Calvinist.

He is explaining the salvation message. We have to admit we are sick to admit we need a physician. You left off the idea of the fact you cannot sin. Literally you cannot sin because of becoming a new creature. You have a new situation that only believers have; new man vs. old man. 1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Again, whose fruit is it?

Obedience in order to what? Just for the sake of obeying, or to maintain your own salvation? Our new relationship with the Father is that we obey because He is our Father and His Spirit is in us and we desire to be conformed to the image of His Son, not to maintain or merit salvation.

Originally Posted by Kliska View Post
He is explaining the salvation message. We have to admit we are sick to admit we need a physician. You left off the idea of the fact you cannot sin. Literally you cannot sin because of becoming a new creature. You have a new situation that only believers have; new man vs. old man. 1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Sorry you are leaving Kliska.

See how Catholics proclaim we are saved:

By believing in Christ (Jn 3:16; Acts 16:31)

By repentance (Acts 2:38; 2 Pet 3:9)

By baptism (Jn 3:5; 1 Pet 3:21; Titus 3:5)

By eating his flesh and drinking his blood (Jn 6)

By the work of the Spirit (Jn 3:5; 2 Cor 3:6)

By declaring with our mouths (Lk 12:8; Rom 10:9)

By coming to a knowledge of the truth (1 Tim 2:4; Heb 10:26)

By works (Rom 2:6-7; James 2:24)

By grace (Acts 15:11; Eph 2:8)

By his blood (Rom 5:9; Heb 9:22)

By his righteousness (Rom 5:17; 2 Pet 1:1)

By keeping the commandments (Matt 19:17)

By our words (Matt 12:37)

By enduring to the end (Matt.24:13)

Thank you, PRmerger

 

[QNDNNDQDCE]

Participation in the uncreated energies means that the energies are enhypostatized by the human hypostasis. By grace, we come to have attributes which are not analogous to the perfections, but are the perfections themselves. That is what it means to participate in the uncreated energies of God. My question then is if it is not that justice, by which God Himself is just, which justifies man, does that not necessarily entail rejecting the idea that we are justified by having Justice Itself (as what some might call a perfection, or as St. Maximus might call it, a participated being)?

I am neither a philosopher nor a theologian so you will have to go elsewhere for a definitive answer. However, as I said earlier the only place where I have even seen the term “created grace” used in Latin writing is in the Summa Theologica so I’m stick to that. I think the simple answer to your question is probably that we are just by a participation in the same justice as God (Justice itself), but in a less excellence manner from the manner in which God is just. To be honest, I am unsure what you are thinking. What is participated being to St. Maximus? What about St. John Damascene? You put participation in opposition to analogy, but according to St. Thomas, this is not so.

Likeness of creatures to God is not affirmed on account of agreement in form according to the formality of the same genus or species, but solely according to analogy, inasmuch as God is essential being, whereas other things are beings by participation. (i, 4, 3, ad. 3)

According to St. Thomas, essence an existence are identical in God, whereas this is not so for created beings whose existence is not of necessity. We cannot, therefore, exist in the same manner in which God exists, so existence cannot pr predicated of God and created beings univocally. Yet, at the same time, our existence is not totally unlike God’s manner of existence. Furthermore, we know about God through created things, as St. Paul writes, “the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made,” but if we could only speak of created things and God equivocally, then we wouldn’t be able to know anything about God at all from creation and St. Paul would be wrong. This is why it is necessary for Thomas that we speak by analogy as things are not exactly the same, yet they are not dissimilar. So, as he says above, God is essential being (that is, he is being) while creatures are beings by participating in being.

To give another example, we explains that when a creature is called good, it does not signify the Divine Nature (i.e. God) as if it were applied univocally, although it does signify goodness itself, which seemed to be your concern.

These names “good,” “wise,” and the like, are imposed from the perfections proceeding from God to creatures; but they do not signify the divine nature, but rather signify the perfections themselves absolutely; and therefore they are in truth communicable to many. But this name “God” is given to God from His own proper operation, which we experience continually, to signify the divine nature.

I could keep pulling quotes out for you, but, not understanding where you’re coming from, it would undoubtedly be more beneficial for you if you read through the relevant section of the Summa yourself.