Free speech and NAMBLA, how far is too far?

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Curley family: NAMBLA paying killer
By Sarah Andrews/ Chronicle Staff
Thursday, August 11, 2005

A civil case targeting a group that promotes relations between men and boys could head to a higher court, if state officials don’t release the prison records of 10-year-old Cambridge resident Jeffrey Curley’s convicted killer.

After a federal judge quashed his motion to release the records in April, Lawrence Frisoli, the attorney for Barbara and Robert Curley, Jeffrey Curley’s parents, requested information about Charles Jaynes’ incarceration from Gov. Mitt Romney and the Department of Corrections last week.

The Curleys, who filed a $200 million lawsuit against the North American Man/Boy Love Association in 2000, allege that Jaynes is receiving money from NAMBLA while in prison and is actively recruiting inmates for the organization. They are seeking information regarding Jaynes’ mail and phone activity, canteen account and employment.

Frisoli said if the request is denied, he expects further litigation to ensue, possibly to the Supreme Judicial Court. “However, we gave the Massachusetts chief executive officer [the choice],” he said.

Diane Wiffin, spokeswoman for the DOC, said lawyers were still reviewing the request.

NAMBLA, who cites “educating the general public on the benevolent nature of man/boy love” as one of its goals, is being represented by the American Civil Liberties Union.

Jaynes and Salvatore Sicari were convicted of second-degree and first-degree murder, respectively, in Curley’s 1998 death. The two men abducted the boy in Cambridge, murdered and molested him and then threw his body into a Maine river.

In 1999, Barbara Curley was given access to Jaynes’ criminal records that pertain to Jeffrey’s murder, on the basis that she is a victim. But in his April opinion, the judge stated it isn’t clear whether Jaynes’ prison records pertain to the crime.

Jaynes joined NAMBLA in 1996, and Frisoli has long maintained that NAMBLA “trained” Jaynes to lure in young boys.

NAMBLA members and attorneys have consistently countered this. In response to the civil suit, an anonymous NAMBLA member sent the Chronicle a letter, stating, “NAMBLA has regularly decried rape, kidnapping and other violent acts [and] has never published or distributed any material advocating … coercion or violence against children.” [continue]
 
Curley family: NAMBLA paying killer

[continued from previous page]

The Curleys, Frisoli said, are interested in securing sanctions against the group.

“No one is chasing the defendant for money,” Frisoli said. “This is a lawsuit that says there should not be a national organization of pedophiles promoting the rape of children. We say the defendants [NAMBLA] trained Charles Jaynes to rape civilian boys.”

One affidavit, signed by an inmate at MCI-Concord, alleges that NAMBLA sends Jaynes’ mother money on his behalf, which she deposits into his prison canteen account; that Jaynes passes around Curley’s autopsy report to inmates; keeps a journal of rape and sexual assaults; engages in sexual acts with other prisoners; and “use[d] to participate in a fatherhood group so he could listen to fathers talk about their children.”

A similar, signed affidavit from another inmate was retracted on April 7. Contact Sarah Andrews at sandrews@cnc.com.
townonline.com/cambridge…&format=&page=1
 
How far does freedom of speech go?Why is it illegal for terrorists to plot evil deeds,but it is legal for this organization to give manuals out on how to procure children for rape and get away with it?Why?
 
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Lisa4Catholics:
How far does freedom of speech go?Why is it illegal for terrorists to plot evil deeds,but it is legal for this organization to give manuals out on how to procure children for rape and get away with it?Why?
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You know, I just had some very logical statements to make about this, but I am so disgusted that my emotion overwhelms my thinking right now. :banghead:
 
I’m for free speech and all, but the second you start infringing the rights on others (such as innocent kids who don’t know why that creep is giving them so much attention) you’re outright crossing the line.
 
**If you yell fire in a crowded movie theater when there is no fire, and in the ensuing panic and rush out the door, someone gets injured/killed, are you held liable? If so, will claiming free speech get you off the hook? **
Just something to think about.
 
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streetcar:
I’m for free speech and all, but the second you start infringing the rights on others (such as innocent kids who don’t know why that creep is giving them so much attention) you’re outright crossing the line.
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Momofone and streetcar this is what I am talking about.
Child-sex sting by FBI results in 8 arrests Agent infiltrated man/boy love group

By Onell R. Soto
UNION-TRIBUNE STAFF WRITER

February 15, 2005

Seven men whom authorities link to a national group advocating sexual relationships between men and boys were arrested Saturday as they headed to Ensenada in hopes of molesting children, the FBI said yesterday.

Three of the men were arrested at Harbor Island in a sting orchestrated by
an undercover agent who infiltrated the North American Man/Boy Love Association, or NAMBLA, said Dan Dzwilewski, head of the San Diego FBI office.

“They thought they were going to be traveling into Mexico together,” he said.

In an e-mail explaining the plan, the undercover agent wrote to one of the men: “The beauty is we go by boat from SD to Ensenada and avoid customs and inquiring eyes.”

Four men were arrested in Marina Del Rey in Los Angeles.

An Orange County man also was arrested in connection with the case and charged with distributing child pornography.

Experts on child exploitation say they’ve seen an increase in sex tourism targeting children in Baja California.

“We have a big problem with that, a big, big one,” said Marisa B. Ugarte, who heads a National City group battling sexual exploitation in the San Diego border area. “They do it with boys, and with little girls.”

Mexican officials arrested at least 14 Americans on sex tourism charges in Baja California last year, said Lauren Mack, spokeswoman for Immigration and Customs Enforcement, which has agents in Tijuana who help in such investigations.

It’s against federal law to cross state of international borders with the intent of having sex with minors.

There was no response to a message left on a NAMBLA answering machine in New York about the case.

**On its Web site, the organization says its goal “is to end the extreme oppression of men and boys in mutually consensual relationships” and talks about the “benevolent nature of man/boy love.” **

**The group says it condemns sexual abuse, but opposes laws against molestation “which deny men and boys the full enjoyment of their bodies.” **

**The undercover FBI agent attended NAMBLA conferences in New York in 2003 and in Miami in November and met with some of the men arrested Saturday, Dzwilewski said. **

“They discussed areas where they might be able to travel for the purpose of engaging in sex with minors,” he said.

The undercover agent gained the confidence of members, he said.

“He had been invited to become a member of their steering committee,” Dzwilewski said.

As part of the investigation, the FBI created a bogus company to make travel arrangements for sex tours, according to court documents.

After the Miami trip, the undercover agent sent an e-mail to one of the men, a member of the organization’s steering committee.

“We are planning a ‘vacation’ in the near future and would love for you to join us if you can,” the undercover agent wrote. “Let me know if you can partake and I’ll get you all the juicy details.”

In addition to airfare, the undercover company quoted the cost for four days at a “bed, boys and breakfast” establishment in Ensenada at $620, according to the court documents.

The men said they were interested in boys as young as 10 years old, according to the charges. In e-mail messages, the undercover agent and the men called it a “fishing” trip.

At least one of the men was wary.

“I must admit that I have wondered if there could be any kind of STING here???” wrote Sam Lindblad, 56, of Albuquerque, N.M., a former special-education teacher who served a prison term in Colorado for “enticement of a child,” according to court documents.

The undercover agent responded that the only stings would be from jellyfish off the coast.

Lindblad was arrested in Los Angeles, as was Gregory Nusca, 43, of Dania Beach, Fla.; Steven Irvin, 46, of Pittsburgh; and Richard Stutsman, 59, of Seneca, S.C. Arrested in San Diego were Phillip Calvin, 43, of Dallas; David Mayer, 49, of Chicago; and Paul Zipszer, 39, of Deltona, Fla. Jeff Devore, 53, of Fullerton was arrested on child pornography charges Saturday.

signonsandiego.com/news/…1m15nambla.html
 
However, as Fox News’ Bill O’Reilly noted, there is more at play here than pamphleteering. “According to lawyers familiar with [NAMBLA’s] website,” O’Reilly explained, “it actually posted techniques designed to lure boys into having sex with men and also supplied information on what an adult should do if caught.”

NAMBLA is “not just publishing material that says it’s OK to have sex with children and advocating changing the law,” says Larry Frisoli, a Cambridge attorney who is arguing the Curleys case in federal court. NAMBLA, he says, “is actively training their members how to rape children and get away with it. They distribute child pornography and trade live children among NAMBLA members with the purpose of having sex with them.”

Frisoli cites a NAMBLA publication he calls “The Rape and Escape Manual.” Its actual title is “The Survival Manual: The Man’s Guide to Staying Alive in Man-Boy Sexual Relationships.”

“Its chapters explain how to build relationships with children,” Frisoli tells me. “How to gain the confidence of children’s parents. Where to go to have sex with children so as not to get caught…There is advice, if one gets caught, on when to leave America and how to rip off credit card companies to get cash to finance your flight. It’s pretty detailed.”

“In his diary, Jaynes said he had reservations about having sex with children until he discovered NAMBLA,” Frisoli continues. “It’s in his diary in 1996, around the time he joined NAMBLA, one year before the death of Jeffrey Curley.”

The practical, step-by-step advice Jaynes followed goes far beyond appeals to sway public opinion in favor of pedophilia. Such language aids and abets felonious conduct. If such conspiracy results in homicide, it is reasonable for NAMBLA to face civil liability if not criminal prosecution.

Ohio’s Court of Appeals found NAMBLA complicit in an earlier child-rape case. NAMBLA’s literature, discovered in a defendant’s possession, reflected “preparation and purpose,” according to the Buckeye State’s top bench.

The ACLU has offered material support to those who openly preach pedophilia and arguably encourage kidnapping, rape, and murder. Yet this legal group is energetically hostile to an organization that tries to turn boys into men, with sex alien to the process.

Since 1915, the Boy Scouts have managed land within San Diego’s Balboa Park. It has built a swimming pool, a 600-seat amphitheater, and a camping facility that accommodates 300. Camp Balboa serves some 12,000 Boy Scouts annually through daylong events and weekend sleepovers. The Scouts’ tie to this land is a 50-year lease offered by the San Diego City Council and signed in 1957. In exchange for their stewardship — including private investment for maintenance and development — the Scouts hand the city an annual lease payment of $1.00.

This arrangement is too much for the ACLU to swallow. It sued the City of San Diego to expel the Boy Scouts from Balboa Park. The ACLU contends that the Scouts are a religious organization and thus should be dislodged from the facility. Never mind that the Scouts did not bar other groups from using the park. In fact, according to Hans Zeiger, an 18-year-old Eagle Scout who has written about this controversy, Balboa Park hosted last summer’s San Diego Gay Pride Festival.
 
Clinton-appointed U.S. District Judge Napoleon Jones deemed the Boy Scouts a religious organization last July and declared that their involvement with Balboa Park violated the separation of church and state. The ACLU used this ruling to secure a settlement wherein the City of San Diego cancelled the Scouts’ lease on the park, even though it did not expire until 2007 and, in fact, was extended in 2001 for 25 years. The ACLU also scored $950,000 in attorneys fees and court costs, thus fleecing taxpayers and deepening its pockets.

San Diego’s Boy Scouts are appealing Judge Jones’ ruling. A federal judge someday may decide whether or not the Scouts’ good deeds will go unpunished.

The ACLU’s supporters should contemplate where this organization has placed itself vis-à-vis NAMBLA and the Boy Scouts. The ACLU seemingly believes that everyone deserves a lawyer, no matter how odious his case. Perhaps, although it would be nice to see NAMBLA siphon its own bank account rather than the ACLU’s to justify its evil ways. The ACLU decides for itself where to devote its finite resources. Hence, its leaders freely chose to stand with cheerleaders for pederasty while torpedoing those who mentor rather than rape little boys.

Today’s ACLU makes one wish it would find some whales to save.
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nationalreview.com/murdo…00402270920.asp
I posted an excerpt of the article in the link.Now why again are they NOT prosecuted?
 
Remember how we were told infringing upon speech is a slippery slope? Don’t allow porno and political speech may be censored next.

So where are we now?

The Supreme Court has overturned a law banning virtual child pornography.

The same court put restrictions on some protests outside abortion clinics and upheld Campaign Finance Reform which openly censors certain political speech.
 
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David_Paul:
Remember how we were told infringing upon speech is a slippery slope? Don’t allow porno and political speech may be censored next.

So where are we now?

The Supreme Court has overturned a law banning virtual child pornography.

The same court put restrictions on some protests outside abortion clinics and upheld Campaign Finance Reform which openly censors certain political speech.
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So the only free speech that will stand is evil:mad:
 
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Lisa4Catholics:
So the only free speech that will stand is evil:mad:
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Neat huh?

The First Amendment prohibits a High School coach anywhere in America from saying a prayer before a game.

But the First Amendment protects the right of that coach to go home, get on his computer, create realistic virtual images of naked children and send them anywhere he wants.

As Lizzie mentioned earlier, the nomination of John Roberts (and others like him) is not just about abortion, important as that is.
 
A manual for training adults on how to rape children is not protected free speech period end of story. Lock these creeps up and loose the key. Adults that harm children in any way have no place in our society.
 
The men who wrote and ratified the Constitution designed the First Amendment to protect pornography and manuals on how to rape children.

Everyone knows that. You can look up their debates.:rolleyes:
 
*OK, I’m a little calmer now. Here’s something to think about. If this is NAMBLA’s policy: *“NAMBLA has regularly decried rape, kidnapping and other violent acts [and] has never published or distributed any material advocating … coercion or violence against children.” *then why are they giving money to a child rapist and murderer? Why are they helping to support him? It would seem to me that if someone joins an organization, as this man did, then commits a henious crime that the organization claims to disavow, the organization would not support him anymore! Kinda looks bad for the organization, don’t you think? (Yeah, I know this organization looks bad already and in fact, is evil, but come on. ) Their support of him says that they are OK with what he did. *
 
Momofone said:
*OK, I’m a little calmer now. Here’s something to think about. If this is NAMBLA’s policy: *“NAMBLA has regularly decried rape, kidnapping and other violent acts [and]
has never published or distributed any material advocating … coercion or violence against children.” *then why are they giving money to a child rapist and murderer? Why are they helping to support him? It would seem to me that if someone joins an organization, as this man did, then commits a henious crime that the organization claims to disavow, the organization would not support him anymore! Kinda looks bad for the organization, don’t you think? (Yeah, I know this organization looks bad already and in fact, is evil, but come on. ) Their support of him says that they are OK with what he did. *
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OH,REALLY!How do they explain THIS!!!:mad: NAMBLA is “not just publishing material that says it’s OK to have sex with children and advocating changing the law,” says Larry Frisoli, a Cambridge attorney who is arguing the Curleys case in federal court. NAMBLA, he says, “is actively training their members how to rape children and get away with it. They distribute child pornography and trade live children among NAMBLA members with the purpose of having sex with them.”

Frisoli cites a NAMBLA publication he calls “The Rape and Escape Manual.” Its actual title is "The Survival Manual: The Man’s Guide to Staying Alive in Man-Boy Sexual Relationships."

"Its chapters explain how to build relationships with children," Frisoli tells me. "How to gain the confidence of children’s parents. Where to go to have sex with children so as not to get caught…There is advice, if one gets caught, on when to leave America and how to rip off credit card companies to get cash to finance your flight. It’s pretty detailed."

“In his diary, Jaynes said he had reservations about having sex with children until he discovered NAMBLA,” Frisoli continues. “It’s in his diary in 1996, around the time he joined NAMBLA, one year before the death of Jeffrey Curley.”

The practical, step-by-step advice Jaynes followed goes far beyond appeals to sway public opinion in favor of pedophilia. Such language aids and abets felonious conduct. If such conspiracy results in homicide, it is reasonable for NAMBLA to face civil liability if not criminal prosecution.
 
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Lisa4Catholics:
OH,REALLY!How do they explain THIS!!!:mad: NAMBLA is “not just publishing material that says it’s OK to have sex with children and advocating changing the law,” says Larry Frisoli, a Cambridge attorney who is arguing the Curleys case in federal court. NAMBLA, he says, “is actively training their members how to rape children and get away with it. They distribute child pornography and trade live children among NAMBLA members with the purpose of having sex with them.”

Frisoli cites a NAMBLA publication he calls “The Rape and Escape Manual.” Its actual title is "The Survival Manual: The Man’s Guide to Staying Alive in Man-Boy Sexual Relationships."

"Its chapters explain how to build relationships with children," Frisoli tells me. "How to gain the confidence of children’s parents. Where to go to have sex with children so as not to get caught…There is advice, if one gets caught, on when to leave America and how to rip off credit card companies to get cash to finance your flight. It’s pretty detailed."

“In his diary, Jaynes said he had reservations about having sex with children until he discovered NAMBLA,” Frisoli continues. “It’s in his diary in 1996, around the time he joined NAMBLA, one year before the death of Jeffrey Curley.”

The practical, step-by-step advice Jaynes followed goes far beyond appeals to sway public opinion in favor of pedophilia. Such language aids and abets felonious conduct. If such conspiracy results in homicide, it is reasonable for NAMBLA to face civil liability if not criminal prosecution.
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Exactly! Their public statements are in direct conflict with what they do: support this man and also in direct conflict with what they say in their guides and booklets. I was not disagreeing with you at all. I was pointing out their obvious contradictions. It is like NARAL saying that they are “pro-choice”, yet supporting China in their one child only policy, which forces women to have abortions. Some “choice” there!
 
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