Free will, amputees, and Fatima

[gerard811]

Not so long ago I posted a question on the Ask An Apologist section of this website. My query went something like this:

Why doesn’t God heal amputees (ie. regrow a limb)? We are led to believe that God heals others. For example, cancer disappears, people regain their vision, etc. after prayers for the afflicted. So why not amputees?

Michelle Arnold provided a possible explanation: God does not do things that would override our free will. So if we suddenly watched someone’s arm regenerate after numerous prayers, we’d have very little choice whether or not to believe that God made it so.

However, I take issue with that answer. Isn’t the sun dancing around in the sky, as supposedly happened at Fatima, a pretty fantastic example of God’s intervention in this world? Seems in that case, too, we wouldn’t have too much of a choice in believing that God made it so. Sure, the sun dancing around in the sky after Mary promised a sign could be a massive coincidence, but it seems extremely unlikely to be just a big coincidence. We would have a choice to believe whether or not God intervened, but it doesn’t seem like a very difficult choice. In fact, it seems nearly irrational to say God did not intervene in that case.

So the question remains. If God almost overrides our free will by making the sun shoot around in the sky at Fatima, why not almost override our free will and regenerate a limb? Why do we have no credibly documented cases of such a thing happening?

 

[DebChris]

I have never personally seen a limb regrown, but I have heard of it happening.
We know that Jesus was always healing somebody, on the way to healing somebody, or had just come from healing somebody. We know that He made the blind see and lame walk. He healed the paraplegic when his friend cut a hole in the roof where Jesus was.
Moreover, Jesus told his disciples they would do the same works He performed and many more. Healing can take place through the imposition of hands by a person who believes and a willing recipient…The question becomes why does it not happen every time. Fr. D’Orio, who had a healing charism, said simply that it was God’s way of keeping him humble. As Peter told the paraplegic at the gate to the temple, it is God who heals, not the person He has chosen as His healing vessel.

 

[ready]

Padre Pio prayed for healing for I think it was a little girl who had no vision, not even an eyeball and the eyeball grew back! Wow! God granted the girl a new eyeball! I know Jesus healed a man’s ear that was cut off by placing the ear back on the man’s head. Maybe God wants those amputee victims not to hope in a new arm or leg, but rather hope for spiritual wholeness and for things spiritual…maybe they have something in particular to benefit from by not having or by not ever having the limb they are missing…maybe others spiritually benefit by their kind acts to that person. Maybe it is just not in God’s plan, maybe it is exactly what the apologist says too.

 

[phantasm]

No one has ever had a limb grow back, because it is observable.

Amputee’s don’t receive Gods beautiful healing, although people with non-visible illnesses get this healing.

God does not allow amputee’s to regrow limbs or people to be cured from cerebral palsy, because he is too busy healing people with chronic back pain or athritis.

As far as that eye ball growing back. Not a chance, unless you provide links to the legitimate medical references and independent Doctors that documented and verified this medical miracle, I won’t pay it another thought.

 

[ready]

No one has ever had a limb grow back, because it is observable.

Amputee’s don’t receive Gods beautiful healing, although people with non-visible illnesses get this healing, because God does not exist.

God does not allow amputee’s to regrow limbs or people to be cured from cerebral palsy, because he is too busy healing people with chronic back pain or athritis.

As far as that eye ball growing back. Not a chance, unless you provide links to the legitimate medical references and independent Doctors that documented and verified this medical miracle, I won’t pay it another thought.

I don’t know where the proper documatation is, so I’m sorry I can’t prove it to you. I hope somebody else can, though. It’s really quite a remarkable miracle!

 

[phantasm]

I don’t know where the proper documatation is, so I’m sorry I can’t prove it to you. I hope somebody else can, though. It’s really quite a remarkable miracle!

Your not going to find any valid, peer reviewed and corobrating scientific evidence, because it was " just a story" that has been passed down.

 

[yellowbicycle]

Fatima is very easily explained.
You can find half a dozen websites explaining away everything that people saw there. Besides, the eyewitness accounts didn’t match, so for some of the people who witnessed it the sun didn’t even dance.
I guess, I’m just thinking that Fatima didn’t override anyone’s free will. You can find as many websites debunking it as those that are claiming it’s veracity.
By the way, someone else started a thread on amputees, maybe it was you (?) I don’t remember now, but there are stories there of limbs growing back and links to the info. I didn’t check them out for accuracy, but I know people posted them. I think some of them were even looked at by various medical experts. But, again, I haven’t checked out the websites myself.

 

[phantasm]

No ones severed limb has ever miraculously and spontaneously grown back to perfect form.

This has never happened, ever.

 

[Leela]

Hi All,

Have you ever prayed for a sick person to be healed? If so, have you also ever prayed for an amputee to regrow a limb? If not, why not? [edited]

Best,
Leela

 

[DebChris]

There are many healings that are never documented. A cancer that is reversed through prayer will be documented as in remission. The more spectacular healings tend to take place in third world countries where there is little access to the medical facilities offered in richer countries such as the United States. Reports of miracles are investigated. Is there a scientific explanation, such as diet that might led to the healing?
Who would be convinced if my crooked finger should become straight? Yes, I know it’s possible. It’s not something I consider important enough to mention to a doctor. I am the only person who would know just as I was the only person present when a simple prayer removed the cramp from my leg.
There are individuals who do not believe in miracles. Were they to see one occur before their eyes, they would remain in denial. There are others who see miracles on a daily basis, even in ordinary events like the sun shining everyday.
All things are possible through Christ Jesus. Who is to say no limb has been straightened or limb regrown?

 

[phantasm]

I was the only person present when a simple prayer removed the cramp from my leg.

16,000 children died from starvation the same day that the creator of the universe apparently used his divine powers to uncramp your leg.



That sounds kind of shallow, no?

 

[ready]

16,000 children died from starvation the same day that the creator of the universe apparently used his divine powers to uncramp your leg.



That sounds kind of shallow, no?

Yes, but did you ever think that those 16,000 children who died from starvation the same day will receive glory in heaven much greater than some of us ever will, by their extreme sufferings born patiently with resignation to their Lord.

 

[phantasm]

Yes, but did you ever think that those 16,000 children who died from starvation the same day will receive glory in heaven much greater than some of us ever will, by their extreme sufferings born patiently with resignation to their Lord.

So, your saying, that 16,000 children dying of starvation is a good thing, because they are going to get some gold star in the sky?

Careful, your views and beliefs are very, very dangerous.

 

[ready]

So, your saying, that 16,000 children dying of starvation is a good thing, because they are going to get some gold star in the sky?

Careful, your views and beliefs are very, very dangerous.

I not only think that it is a good thing, but an excellent thing. We all are lucky to live 80, 90 years…but that is like a blink of an eye compared to how we will be rewarded for our resignation to God’s will in this life. I’d much rather rather die of starvation as a child and be rewarded for my patient resignation than live to be 100 and die with greed and malice in my heart, full in the belly - only to spend my eternity in hell. Don’t judge God. He knows perfectly well what he is allowing when he lets children die of starvation.

 

[phantasm]

I not only think that it is a good thing, but an excellent thing. We all are lucky to live 80, 90 years…but that is like a blink of an eye compared to how we will be rewarded for our resignation to God’s will in this life. I’d much rather rather die of starvation as a child and be rewarded for my patient resignation than live to be 100 and die with greed and malice in my heart, full in the belly - only to spend my eternity in hell. Don’t judge God. He knows perfectly well what he is allowing when he lets children die of starvation.

By your twisted logic, abortion is a great thing, as the babies get a one way ticket to heaven.

 

[ready]

By your twisted logic, abortion is a great thing, as the babies get a one way ticket to heaven.

Your logic is the logic that is twisted and it is your thinking that is dangerous and most disrespectful of God. I really wish you could only see your blindness and error.

 

[cranster]

Padre Pio prayed for healing for I think it was a little girl who had no vision, not even an eyeball and the eyeball grew back! Wow!

Just to get the story straight. The little girls name was Gemma di Giorgio and she was born without pupils. She gained 20/20 vision after Padre Pio’s intercession, but did not regain her pupils.

I think the simplest explanation about the “Why God Doesn’t heal amputee’s?”, question, came from an amputee who said, “because we’re not sick!”.

 

[phantasm]

Just to get the story straight. The little girls name was Gemma di Giorgio and she was born without pupils. She gained 20/20 vision after Padre Pio’s intercession, but did not regain her pupils.

I think the simplest explanation about the “Why God Doesn’t heal amputee’s?”, question, came from an amputee who said, “because we’re not sick!”.

I’d rather have chronic back pain than lose my leg. God cures chronic back pain, quite regularly apparently.

How insulting, insensitive and ignorant to even suggest that amputee’s do not suffer illness and pain as a result of losing their limbs.

…amputation-related pain; to ascertain the intensity and affective quality of phantom pain, residual limb pain, back pain, and nonamputated limb pain; and to identify the role that demographics, amputation-related factors, and depressed mood may contribute to the experience of pain in the amputee.

…A common predictor of an increased level of intensity and bothersomeness among all pain sites was the presence of depressive symptoms

"God isn’t going to heal your leg, your not sick"

http://www.pcrf.net/DC/Hamad.jpg

 

[phantasm]

Just to get the story straight. The little girls name was Gemma di Giorgio and she was born without pupils. She gained 20/20 vision after Padre Pio’s intercession, but did not regain her pupils.

.

Thank you for your honesty in reporting the ’ facts’. It is likely that this girl was suffering from what is known as;

Aniridia is a rare congenital condition characterized by the underdevelopment of the eye’s iris. This usually occurs in both eyes. It is associated with poor development of the retina at the back of the eye preventing normal vision development.

Most children born with aniridia have visual acuities around 20/200 and are considered legally blind.

 

[cranster]

How insulting, insensitive and ignorant to even suggest that amputee’s do not suffer illness and pain as a result of losing their limbs.

I simply stated how an amputee responded to the question of why “God doesn’t heal amputees”? I didn’t say they don’t suffer illness, all humans do, but amputation itself is not an illness, it’s an injury. I never said they don’t suffer pain. God gave us brains, so we can help ourselves… that’s why there are hospital’s, prosthetics, and pain killers.