Free will, amputees, and Fatima

[cranster]

Thank you for your honesty in reporting the ’ facts’. It is likely that this girl was suffering from what is known as;

Aniridia is a rare congenital condition characterized by the underdevelopment of the eye’s iris. This usually occurs in both eyes. It is associated with poor development of the retina at the back of the eye preventing normal vision development.

Most children born with aniridia have visual acuities around 20/200 and are considered legally blind.

This is taken from the account of Gemma.“I had no sight at all. When I was 3 months old my mother took me to a famous occulist in Palermo. He told her that without pupils she would never be able to see.” The only other place I’ve seen Aniridia mentioned is in threads trying to refute that particular miracle. It’s was not a term used by the doctor who examined her. He said she was missing pupil’s not Irises.

 

[phantasm]

that’s why there are hospital’s, prosthetics, and pain killers.

So, no need for God then, is that what your saying?

So, your God doesn’t heal people who are injured, just people who are sick?

People who hurt their backs and who have chronic back pain, well, the lord heals those people. Only, they’re not sick, they have back pain because of an injury. They get healed, hmmmm, must be an exception.

Padre Pio healed some girl without any pupils, now she certainly wasn’t sick, nor injured, rather she had a genetic defect.

What are you saying? God heals the sick, but not the injured, but God will heal people with genetic abnormalities.

People who are injured, they don’t need God to heal them, because they can take pain killers and go to the hospital.

Wow, that’s some system of belief ya got goin’ on.

Lastly, could you just please direct me to the scripture or the catechism of your Church where it is written that the Lord will not heal those who are injured.

The Bible is very clear that one may pray for anything, ask and you will receive. No exceptions, no clauses, no fine print and no conditions.

Thanks.

 

[ready]

Thank you to the post-er who relayed the accurate story about Gemma. I had a slight suspicion that the miracle had only involved her pupils, but thought I was wrong. I thought I had heard that the eye grew back. Sorry about the unneccessary confusion.

In Christ,
ready

 

[cranster]

Thank you to the post-er who relayed the accurate story about Gemma. I had a slight suspicion that the miracle had only involved her pupils, but thought I was wrong. I thought I had heard that the eye grew back. Sorry about the unneccessary confusion.

In Christ,
ready

Nothing to worry about. I was familiar with story and thought I would relay it accurately.

 

[cranster]

So, no need for God then, is that what your saying?

So, your God doesn’t heal people who are injured, just people who are sick?

.

Of course there is a need for God. We pray for healing then accept God’s response to that prayer whether He physically heals us or not. We use the brains He gave us to help ourselves. If we are injured or sick we go to the Hospital all the while praying for healing. When it is something that is beyond human capability then we pray for a miracle. Sometimes the answer is yes, and sometimes no. God does allow suffering and sometimes horrible suffering to bring about a greater good. We humans are in the mess we are in because of sin. Now God being infinite in all ways good knows us far, far better than we could ever know ourselves, and His primary concern for us is salvation. His primary concern is that we spend all eternity in communion with Him. He wants to restore us to the perfection that He intends for us, and apparently that can sometimes be a very painful process. He knows our whole life from beginning to end and precisely what it will take for us to be saved. If he can’t get our attention gently then sometimes he shakes us to the core, and allows things like cancer, or losing a limb to get our attention, or he allows miracles to happen like Gemma to bring others to him. He knows what the gift He Himself is for us, and we can’t begin to comprehend that. That is our destiny… that is what we were created for. From the moment of our first breath to our dying breath he does whatever he can to save us without violating our free will. God says, “My ways are as far above yours as the Heavens are above the earth!” He neither thinks like us or acts like us. He thinks and acts from the perfection of His infinite being. We think and act from an extremely imperfect and limited being.

Some people seem predisposed to look for reasons not to believe, and some look for reasons to believe. I followed a thread about the miracle of Fatima, and one person said 100,000 people just wasn’t enough for it to be from God. The whole world should have been able to see it. I just listened to debate about the historicity of the Resurrection of Jesus. The atheist said the only way it would have been valid is if the whole world saw the resurrected Jesus and the 500 plus that did see Him were simply not enough. There again God doesn’t act the way we think He should, He acts as He will. I really think if a person sprouted a new limb and it was documented, the people that don’t wan’t to believe would just say, “Yeah, well why doesn’t he heal quadrapalegics with spinal cord injuries?” All the while time races by and the eternal destiny that we choose for ourselves is right around the corner.

 

[megsdad]

Hello, everyone. I also find “Why doesn’t God heal amputees?” to be a very interesting question. I do not have an answer. I doubt that anyone knows the truth of God’s thinking, assuming God “thinks” as we do - which is another issue I guess.

However, I find the question problematic for a couple of reasons. First, it can be posed as a purely rhetorical one, at least when asked by anti-thiests in an effort to convert thiests or to sway the wavering. In such situations, the questioner sees it as rhetorical while the answerer sees it as literal. It can be posed as a kind of a trap question because the questioner is specifically trying to elicit some form of justification that is not objective fact but subjective opinion, interpretation, faith, belief, etc. whatever. Then the questioner criticizes the response (for an example, “It’s not part of God’s plan”) as being an invented justification and rationalization.

And such an answer would be, in my view at least, wild speculation because I dont know why God doesnt heal amputees when they asked to be healed. Any answer beyond “I dont know” (for me) is always speculation. But, the question, posed rhetorically, is designed to invite, receive and criticize the speculation as such.

The other problem I see with the question, when asked sincerely, is that it presumes an affirmative answer to the predicate question of whether God should heal amputees when they ask. In other words, if God shouldnt heal amputees when they ask, the question of why God doesnt could be a different question with different answers. And the “should” question further presumes that God “can” heal amputees when they ask. I think the answers to these questions need to be established before someone asks why God doesn’t. So, first: Can?; second: Should?; and third: Why doesnt?

It is safe to say that God can heal amputees when they ask because both the questioner and the answerer are willing to assume the answer is yes. Otherwise, the discussion is pointless.

Should God heal amputees when they ask? I find this question problematic as well but for a different reason. I approach this question from a particular frame of reference - I believe in a God to whom I am absolutely deferential. As such, I cannot (do not? choose not to?..not sure) allow my own moral framework to dictate God’s. Personally speaking, I would very much like it if amputees were healed. But, that is what I want. I do not have the ability to say what God wants, and because of that, I am unable to say what God should or should not do. Even if I did know what God wants, I would not be willing to opine on what God should or should not do. I find it to be the ultimate example of arrogance and presumptuousness.

Someone who does not believe in God comes at the question from the standpoint that God should act as they say – for any offered reason – it could be anything. That imposes an outside moral framework on God which is at odds with how I approach the question. So, my answer on the should question is likely unsatisfying and unpersuasive to someone who is willing to assume that God should.

Because we cannot agree on an answer to the “should” question, it seems pointless to me to proceed to the “why doesn’t” question.

 

[severntofall]

Not so long ago I posted a question on the Ask An Apologist section of this website. My query went something like this:

Why doesn’t God heal amputees (ie. regrow a limb)? We are led to believe that God heals others. For example, cancer disappears, people regain their vision, etc. after prayers for the afflicted. So why not amputees?

Michelle Arnold provided a possible explanation: God does not do things that would override our free will. So if we suddenly watched someone’s arm regenerate after numerous prayers, we’d have very little choice whether or not to believe that God made it so.

However, I take issue with that answer. Isn’t the sun dancing around in the sky, as supposedly happened at Fatima, a pretty fantastic example of God’s intervention in this world? Seems in that case, too, we wouldn’t have too much of a choice in believing that God made it so. Sure, the sun dancing around in the sky after Mary promised a sign could be a massive coincidence, but it seems extremely unlikely to be just a big coincidence. We would have a choice to believe whether or not God intervened, but it doesn’t seem like a very difficult choice. In fact, it seems nearly irrational to say God did not intervene in that case.

So the question remains. If God almost overrides our free will by making the sun shoot around in the sky at Fatima, why not almost override our free will and regenerate a limb? Why do we have no credibly documented cases of such a thing happening?

Correct, god would never take an action that would invalidate our freee will like…oh say…resurecting from the dead, or parting the red sea or defeating an army of 120,000 with a mere 300 men or creating a world encompasing flood or raising the dead, etc.

 

[cerad]

Just to get the story straight. The little girls name was Gemma di Giorgio and she was born without pupils. She gained 20/20 vision after Padre Pio’s intercession, but did not regain her pupils.

I think the simplest explanation about the “Why God Doesn’t heal amputee’s?”, question, came from an amputee who said, “because we’re not sick!”.

So let me make sure I understand this. The little girl without pupils was “sick” but some one missing all four limbs is not?

 

[ready]

Isn’t expecting a limb to grow back like expecting your house that just burned down to just reconstruct itself. Some things we just accept with finality and we move on to pray for other things that make common sense to us in our lives. We just accept that Jesus wants us to grow holy through our need to be innovative with the rest of our body and depend on others for help when necessary; just like when our house burns down we accept that God allowed such a trial to draw an even greater good from the evil of it brought on by nature or a pyromaniac or whomever.

 

[Magnus467]

So, no need for God then, is that what your saying?

So, your God doesn’t heal people who are injured, just people who are sick?

People who hurt their backs and who have chronic back pain, well, the lord heals those people. Only, they’re not sick, they have back pain because of an injury. They get healed, hmmmm, must be an exception.

Padre Pio healed some girl without any pupils, now she certainly wasn’t sick, nor injured, rather she had a genetic defect.

What are you saying? God heals the sick, but not the injured, but God will heal people with genetic abnormalities.

People who are injured, they don’t need God to heal them, because they can take pain killers and go to the hospital.

Wow, that’s some system of belief ya got goin’ on.

Lastly, could you just please direct me to the scripture or the catechism of your Church where it is written that the Lord will not heal those who are injured.

The Bible is very clear that one may pray for anything, ask and you will receive. No exceptions, no clauses, no fine print and no conditions.

Thanks.

Please. Let’s be a little respectful. Yes the Bible says when we pray we will receive. But your understanding is very faulted. If I prayed for the death of a thousand people, do you really think God is going to grant that? We will be answered but it may not be in a way we accept or particularly like. Trying reading The Problem of Pain by C.S. Lewis and try to open your mind a little.

Oh and someone mentioned miracles not having a peer-revived article. Come on…first of all if miracles cannot be explained…do you really expect a science article written on them? Also, I challenge you to find any peer reviewed article that supports God. If they are written, they just wont get published.

 

[DebChris]

Isn’t expecting a limb to grow back like expecting your house that just burned down to just reconstruct itself. Some things we just accept with finality and we move on to pray for other things that make common sense to us in our lives. We just accept that Jesus wants us to grow holy through our need to be innovative with the rest of our body and depend on others for help when necessary; just like when our house burns down we accept that God allowed such a trial to draw an even greater good from the evil of it brought on by nature or a pyromaniac or whomever.

You make a valid point with this analogy. Yes, God can regrow a limb if He so chooses. The example was given of Jesus restoring the ear of Malchus although a request was never made.
I have seen things happen in my own life, even recently when a circumstance was changed in an unexpected direction. It is sometimes in accepting the finality of a situation, in turning to God in worship that miracles take place.
I have been accused in the past of lacking sufficient faith because I suffer from migraines. These headaches have not gone away despite many prayers… Did Paul lack expectant faith when his “thorn in the side” was not removed? “It is in weakness that power reaches perfection.” We know that Paul survived the bite of a poisonous snake. I walked away from a car accident that took me over a cliff.
Humility is needed to accept help from others, especially in a society that places a high value on independence.

 

[ready]

We know that Paul survived the bite of a poisonous snake. I walked away from a car accident that took me over a cliff.
Humility is needed to accept help from others, especially in a society that places a high value on independence.

I’m really glad you survived! And yes, humility is needed to accept help from others, especially in a society that places a high value on independence - like you said. That’s why I think God lets amputees suffer their difficulty, for holiness sake, that is, for growth in humility and separation from habits of independence that don’t always allow them to depend on God for their sustenance. God only allows those things to happen to those people for their good, for their sanctification, otherwise I believe He’d heal amputees. (I don’t mean Malchus, whose ear was available, I mean people who have lost their extremeties at sea, etc…)

 

[cerad]

I’m really glad you survived! And yes, humility is needed to accept help from others, especially in a society that places a high value on independence - like you said. That’s why I think God lets amputees suffer their difficulty, for holiness sake, that is, for growth in humility and separation from habits of independence that don’t always allow them to depend on God for their sustenance. God only allows those things to happen to those people for their good, for their sanctification, otherwise I believe He’d heal amputees. (I don’t mean Malchus, whose ear was available, I mean people who have lost their extremeties at sea, etc…)

So people with cancer (which God cures all the time) are already holy enough? Is there a cause and effect? Holiness causes cancer which God then cures?

 

[phantasm]

Sometimes the answer is yes, and sometimes no.

Or always NO, like in the case of amputee’s. That’s the whole point. Most everyone gets healed, except for amputee’s.

 

[RainDown]

Maybe God willed someone to have their limbs amputated in the first place. Or, maybe He simply permitted it to happen and didn’t will them to have that limb back. I think this is impossible to know.

 

[phantasm]

Isn’t expecting a limb to grow back like expecting your house that just burned down to just reconstruct itself.

Your actually wrong, unless of course you ignore the clear scriptures from the Bible. Your rationalization as to why God does not heal amputee’s, is one that is deeply flawed, not based upon scripture or Catholic teaching.

Mark 11:24

Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.

1 John 3:22

And we will receive whatever we request because we obey him and do the things that please him.

Luke 11:9

So I say to you: Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you.

Matthew 17:20

He said to them, "Because of your little faith. Amen, I say to you, if you have faith the size of a mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you."

 

[phantasm]

Maybe God willed someone to have their limbs amputated in the first place. Or, maybe He simply permitted it to happen and didn’t will them to have that limb back. I think this is impossible to know.

Correct.

Then explain the creator of the universe ridding someone of a leg cramp because of prayer.

If you doubt this claim, I will provide the link that was recently posted by a member on this forum.

I’m to believe that through prayer, God will rid a believer of a leg cramp, yet God will not regrow an amputee’s leg?

 

[ready]

Maybe God willed someone to have their limbs amputated in the first place. Or, maybe He simply permitted it to happen and didn’t will them to have that limb back. I think this is impossible to know.

Yes, I agree!

 

[Magnus467]

Your actually wrong, unless of course you ignore the clear scriptures from the Bible. Your rationalization as to why God does not heal amputee’s, is one that is deeply flawed, not based upon scripture or Catholic teaching.

Mark 11:24

Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.

1 John 3:22

And we will receive whatever we request because we obey him and do the things that please him.

Luke 11:9

So I say to you: Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you.

Matthew 17:20

He said to them, "Because of your little faith. Amen, I say to you, if you have faith the size of a mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you."

What if the answer is something we don’t like? God does not appease our every whim. I think people are also missing the fact that amputation does not equal the end of life. Amputees actually go on to live very inspiring lives even though they are fraught with challenges. Also, I think instead of praying for a miracle (it’s probably a miracle they got away alive with only an amputation in the first place) they should pray for understanding and the will to fight on.

 

[ready]

Your actually wrong, unless of course you ignore the clear scriptures from the Bible. Your rationalization as to why God does not heal amputee’s, is one that is deeply flawed, not based upon scripture or Catholic teaching.

Mark 11:24

Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.

1 John 3:22

And we will receive whatever we request because we obey him and do the things that please him.

Luke 11:9

So I say to you: Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you.

Matthew 17:20

He said to them, "Because of your little faith. Amen, I say to you, if you have faith the size of a mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you."

So if your house burned down to dust, leaving no matter whatsoever to work with, praying that it be reconstructed out of thin air is common sensical and in works with the quotes you present (all of which I am aware of.) If you wanted it rebuilt with new material, that’s reasonable, but having it reconstructed from thin air? An amputee may pray for his arm back. Getting a good prosthetic is the answer to his prayers…matter in form exists to be attatched to his arm. But for him to pray his arm grows back is like praying for your hair to grow in faster than it is possible to. God works with nature, not against it. The Miracle of Loretto is interesting. God moved a house from the Middle East to Loretto, Italy. He had the house to work with, something real and tangible. But for God to make a house from thin air is not how He works. When Christ multiplied the bread and fish he still had to have some fish and bread to work with in the first place. I am a strong woman of faith. I don’t think you are aware of this.