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tonyrey
Guest
The notion that free will is an illusion would also be an illusion! :whacky:A warm welcome to the forum, Michael.
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The notion that free will is an illusion would also be an illusion! :whacky:A warm welcome to the forum, Michael.
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Partinobodycula
Guest
I don’t wish to challenge the notion of free will, but could someone please explain the mechanism by which free will can possibly occur. Reality, I presume, consists of the past, the present, and the future. The past appears to be unchangeable. The present also appears to be unchangeable. I cannot change what “IS” right at this exact moment. It’s set in stone. So if I can’t change the past, and I can’t change the present, how can I possibly change the future? What occurs at the boundary between what is, and what will be, that allows free will to exist?
As I say, I’m not looking to challenge the notion of free will, I’m simply looking for some insight into how it could possibly occur. How can I have any effect on the future if I can’t change the past or the present?
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Aloysium
Guest
“Mechanism” explaining free-will? It just is. It’s something we inherit as part of human nature, in the image of God - the ability to participate in creation.
All change happens in the moment. I can choose not to complet
I can still finish the sentence but I choose
This isn’t set in stone yet, but will be if I don’t change the post in the next moments.
BTW - all these moments are one in God’s eternal Now.
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Partinobodycula
Guest
Change can’t possibly happen in the moment, because the current moment already exists, you no longer have the option to change it, or effect it in any way. Thus if you can’t change the past or the present, by what means do you influence the future? You can’t influence it by changing the past, and you can’t influence it by changing the present. So how do you influence the future?
You do indeed appear to be making choices of your own volition, but are you? And if so, how? Or more specifically, when? If the future is simply the result of the sum total of the decisions made in the past, then it would appear to be completely deterministic. There is no moment in time when the individual has the ability to change anything. As I say, the past and the present are already set in stone, you can’t change them. So what can you change, and how?
As I say, I’m not questioning free will, I’m just not taking it for granted either.
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grannymh
Guest
According to the American Heritage College Dictionary, Fourth Edition, the will is “1a. The mental faculty by which one deliberately chooses or decides upon a course of action. b. the act of exercising the will.” More interesting descriptions follow. Thus, the mind is considered the mechanism. Catholics would say that the mechanism of free will is one of the faculties of the spiritual soul.
What is interesting about the mechanism of the mind is that the mind can know the reality of the past and present and can speculate about the reality of the future. This can be done from two valuable perspectives The subjective perspective is when the mind uses its memory, its feelings, its experiences, and its prejudices used in a proper manner. The objective perspective is to examine the past, present, and future as existing independently from one’s mind. As an example, one can think about buying a chair in a furniture store from a personal subjective perspective such as the blue color of the chair is one’s favorite because one feels peace with this color. The objective cost of the chair exists independently of the person’s budget.
These two perspectives often work together. We can look at the reality of a past war by reading the objective names on tombstones with tears coming from our subjective memories of an uncle who was killed in battle.
Agree. The past appears to be unchangeable. I am not so sure that the present appears to be unchangeable. This is because the present can mean the immediate minute or prolonged situations such as one’s employment.
Regarding changing the future. First, the mind does not have the physical power to change the future. We can think about rain ruining a great picnic planned for next week, but, our mind cannot stop a thunderstorm.
Second, our mind does have the intellective power of freely considering options for the future picnic. For example, move the picnic location to a shelter in the park. Or bring umbrellas. In my experience having an umbrella wards off rain. Forgetting my umbrella is a sure sign that there better be an ark near the picnic.
Seriously, our mind or rational soul can freely consider various possible options for future events. Then, our mind “wills” a course of action, that is, a particular preparation is chosen and our anatomy physically prepares for sun or rain or both or neither.
This is an intriguing question. A possible answer is that at the boundary between what is and what will be, the human nature does its thing.
Objectively, that past is out of our control. As for personally changing the effects of the past, a subjective method is to give yourself permission to let go of the past. Or one can review the changes since a past event. Good changes can help one in the present because one can choose between present options.
As for changing the future, I bet there are many people, including this cranky granny, who wish they could do this. At this point, it is valuable to relook at the word “deliberately” in the above definition of will. Deliberately is an excellent description of “free” in free will. At present, as I see it, the way to change our future is for our will, our mind, our rational intellect, to examine our own lifestyle and then search out the answers to the questions – How shall I live today? Which of today’s choices will influence the way I live tomorrow?
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tonyrey
Guest
The **atomistic **view of time distorts reality. When followed to its logical conclusion it entails determinism in which everything and everyone are cogs in an immense machine. It overlooks the element of unpredictability which is certainly not set in stone. We have the power to change ourselves for better or for worse. We can choose whether to be reasonable or unreasonable - and our decisions have an impact on physical reality, as the pollution of this planet demonstrates beyond all doubt.
The fatal flaw in determinism is that it is self-destructive. If we cannot change** anything **we cannot choose what to think and **all **our conclusions are beyond our control - and therefore unreliable. Freedom begins at home. If our minds are slaves there is no such thing as freedom or responsibility. The conclusion that free will is an illusion is worthless because it destroys intellectual independence. It loses sight of the simple fact that we are not mechanisms but persons. It eliminates the distinction between good and evil, right and wrong, unjust and unjust. Everything becomes valueless, purposeless and meaningless - including the assertion that free will is an illusion. If only matter exists nothing matters…
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Charlemagne_III
Guest
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tonyrey
Guest
There is great indignation when such pleasures are not available…But then we’ll always have pizza, beer, and football.
God is good!
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Aloysium
Guest
You are really over-thinking this.
Keep it simple:
Take a deep breath and think “When am I doing this?”
Take another and another and another, each time considering “When am I doing this?”
When your memory springs into action, thinking about the last breath you took,
when is this thinking happening - ever emergent, ever disappearing?
Now.
Now is where everything ever takes place.
Now has no beginning. It has no end.
It cannot be contained, it contains.
It is our being, our spirit, our will.
Centred on God, our spirit lives and thrives,
on the transient, it will fade
on sin it becomes corrupt.
At my death bed where I lie in time,
my life set in stone,
my last prayer,
God hears in His eternal Now.
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