Free Will and Science

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Thus, in my humble opinion, the paper is implying that the will to choose an action goes from material brain cells straight to the corresponding limb with no need of another substance. In a sense, extreme Cartesian dualism separated soul from body and today’s research wants to verify the philosophical separation by eliminating the need for any spiritual substance such as the intellect and will.

Am I even close to saying what you said? By the way, I am experimenting with all this kind of reasoning to see what really works.

In other words, I want to look at this paper from a materialistic view of life. I want to be on the researcher’s turf so I can understand her or his choice of methods and materials. Is this choice of protocol in keeping with practical reality as taught by the Catholic Church. If not, what is missing?

Blessings,
granny

The quest for truth is worth the adventures of the journey.
If by free will you mean a real choice that is not already determined by the sum total of pre-existing material reality, then from a materialistic point of view there is no “free will”. Some allow for what I’ll call “unpredictable will” based on quantum uncertainty, but that’s not much of an improvement.
It’s not the methodology of the Desmurget study that’s a problem, or even the findings; it’s the inferences.
For one thing, it’s not necessary for a believer in true free will to believe that it applies to all choices of actions, only that it applies to choices with moral implications. I make literally hundreds of choices all day long that I don’t think have any moral dimension to them. I base my choices on purely pragmatic considerations, and I see no problem if those decisions are totally determined by brain states.
Secondly, there can be a hierarchy of choices. For example, I consciously choose to participate in an experimental study that tests my “choice” responses to various stimuli on a computer screen while my brain activity is being measured by functional MRI. The initial decision to participate may have been a legitimate free will decision, but the subordinate decisions during the experiment are probably not.
 
If by free will you mean a real choice that is not already determined by the sum total of pre-existing material reality, then from a materialistic point of view there is no “free will”. Some allow for what I’ll call “unpredictable will” based on quantum uncertainty, but that’s not much of an improvement.
It’s not the methodology of the Desmurget study that’s a problem, or even the findings; it’s the inferences.
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Quick comments for tomorrow when I am more awake.

Can the inferences be in error because the inductive method does not warrant them?
What I am trying to say is that when one looks at the methods and materials used, they do not warrant the inferences. Or maybe what I am trying to say is that the methods and materials are sufficient so that they properly lead to the conclusion but not to the inferences.

Is it like going from the particular, i.e., specific movements of limbs to the universal that all choices arise in the material brain? The responses of the patients are in keeping with the physical stimulation of the brain. However, the responses of the patients do not reflect the entire range of free will.

I am trying to nail down just how the inferences are problematic. This is because I see a similarity in the way this research was conducted to other kinds of research involving choice. For example, the MRI kind which you referred to. I even see a similarity to genetic research where I can follow point a to result b but not to result z.

Recently, I was advised to look at the evidence – however evidence depends on the validity of method and materials. Also, there is the issue of what is appropriate.

I feel like I am going in circles.:o

I do see the actions of free will in about the same way you do. I see human nature as the unique unification of spirit/matter, rational/corporeal which forms one being, the human person. The body is necessary for the soul to act and the soul is necessary for the body to act. How they act is a mystery so one normally looks at the results.

Blessings,
granny:sleep:
 
The question is does the free will (intent) precede electrical activity or is the feeling of free will arise from electrical/neuronal activity, and if the latter, what is the source of that electrical/neuronal activity if no external stimulation is supplied?
With the caution that an analogy is a lie, the answer could be analogous to a network. The feeling of free will arises in components that do not track the source of the stimulus. Put another way, that part of the brain wasn’t designed to run integrity checks on its data to guard against the novel situation of being manipulated during surgery. 🙂
 
I do think it is potentially ill-advised to try to use scientific methodology to “prove” the truth of our religious Faith, because I think it opens the door to destructive counter-attacks. I think the Catholic Church has over the centuries learned this lesson the hard way (e.g. Galileo).
My point earlier (#35) was that even without anyone wanting to prove or disprove anything, by the end of this century most people will see the mind as naturalistic. If that’s true then we are living at the start of another period of history when traditional beliefs are challenged, in the same way as they were with geocentrism and creation.

It’s as if every so often science unwittingly throws a fragmentation grenade at faith. My expertise is in information technology, and I genuinely can’t see what all the fuss is about with free will. So a battle line is drawn in the sand with physicalist nerds like me on one side and supernaturalists on the other.

There’s another way we get sliced up. Is it important for faith to know whether the Earth goes around the Sun, how we are made, or the nature 🙂 of the soul? Some say yes, others no. Leading the “no” camp we have Benedict saying that on these points scripture is metaphorical, with various messages pointing to a single truth, alongside JPII with his battle cry of Truth Cannot Contradict Truth, and me bringing up the rear (loud bangs frighten nerds).

As you said, our faith is built on a rock, and history shows that we will all come through this. The question is whether the battle will deflect people from, or confirm us in, the core truths of our faith.
 
My point earlier (#35) was that even without anyone wanting to prove or disprove anything, by the end of this century most people will see the mind as naturalistic. If that’s true then we are living at the start of another period of history when traditional beliefs are challenged, in the same way as they were with geocentrism and creation.

It’s as if every so often science unwittingly throws a fragmentation grenade at faith. My expertise is in information technology, and I genuinely can’t see what all the fuss is about with free will. So a battle line is drawn in the sand with physicalist nerds like me on one side and supernaturalists on the other.

There’s another way we get sliced up. Is it important for faith to know whether the Earth goes around the Sun, how we are made, or the nature 🙂 of the soul? Some say yes, others no. Leading the “no” camp we have Benedict saying that on these points scripture is metaphorical, with various messages pointing to a single truth, alongside JPII with his battle cry of Truth Cannot Contradict Truth, and me bringing up the rear (loud bangs frighten nerds).

As you said, our faith is built on a rock, and history shows that we will all come through this. The question is whether the battle will deflect people from, or confirm us in, the core truths of our faith.
There is a philosophy behind the sound bite “truth cannot contract truth” which many on CAF conveniently forget so they can pursue their personal agenda of either “science” or “faith”. And so some of us have been sliced up from every position represented on CAF.

As you pointed out – the question is whether the battle will deflect people from, or confirm us in, the core truths of our faith. My reply is that it all depends on which faith people choose. From what I have observed on CAF some people want to change the core truths of Catholicism and substitute their own “core truths” so they can feel comfortable wearing the Catholic label

When it comes to an issue such as free will and science, people conveniently slice up human nature because the unity of human nature is a “both/and” proposition. "Both/and" is part of the philosophy which leads to the sound bite “truth cannot contract truth”. Which circles us back to square one where people prefer their own agenda.

My own personal agenda is my observation that biology and its wanna be’s are providing the method which ultimately contributes to the decision to deny or minimize core truths of Catholicism such as the reality of two sole parents of the human species and the reality of Adam’s single action of scorning his Creator.

In fairness, the 21st century biological approach to Adam and Eve is a Johnny-come-lately to the years of symbolism claims and misunderstandings of how Catholicism views human nature. All of this really belongs in philosophical discussions provided that people understand both the role of science and of Catholic theology. Truth cannot contradict truth is philosophically based on the dual contributions of Catholicism and of the various sciences.

It is my personal observation from CAF posts that science itself is broken up into various specialties. For example, Rev. Robert Spitzer is an expert in a particular area of science which contributes to the truth surrounding who we are as humans. His latest book, New Proofs for the Existence of God ISBN:978-0-8028-6383-6 should be read and discussed. The two links in the OP provided a very interesting approach to free will.

When I attempt to approach free will from my area of interest which is the origin of the human species, I find myself hopelessly lost in circles because of the understandable ban of this forum. I do respect the ban and its reasons. While I will eventually use free will as significant evidence of our species’ uniqueness, I am hesitant to contribute here.

Blessings,
granny

The quest for truth is worthy of the adventures of the journey.
 
When I attempt to approach free will from my area of interest which is the origin of the human species, I find myself hopelessly lost in circles because of the understandable ban of this forum. I do respect the ban and its reasons. While I will eventually use free will as significant evidence of our species’ uniqueness, I am hesitant to contribute here.
Free will is not a banned topic and can be safely discussed if we confine ourselves to what it entails. I believe it presupposes self-determination and therefore the existence of an intangible self which is beyond the scope of science…
 
While I will eventually use free will as significant evidence of our species’ uniqueness, I am hesitant to contribute here.
Received and understood. Your post set me on a mission.

As I see it, a scientific explanation of free will and consciousness would rely on abstracted models, just as the Christian view of us as tri-partite (body, soul and spirit) is an abstraction. In that sense, for me, good science and good faith are different forms of knowledge that can never conflict.

It’s tempting to try to merge models or do an either/or (your point) but that contaminates them (like trying to explain the Eucharist using quantum physics :rolleyes:) or loses metaphors and relationships. My interpretation of Benedict, and I may be putting words in his mouth, is that by using models in parallel we can pull out core truths, leading to JPII’s truth cannot contradict truth.

My mission is to find out whether there is any possible conflict between the Catholic view of the soul and whatever science may say about free will. The Catechism appears to treat body and soul as a unity (367) so probably no issue there. I must admit to bypassing the Catholic Encyclopedia (I always shout at it, imho a wholesale revision is needed). Is there a deeper point of potential conflict, or is it fine and dandy?
 
Received and understood. Your post set me on a mission.

As I see it, a scientific explanation of free will and consciousness would rely on abstracted models, just as the Christian view of us as tri-partite (body, soul and spirit) is an abstraction. In that sense, for me, good science and good faith are different forms of knowledge that can never conflict.

It’s tempting to try to merge models or do an either/or (your point) but that contaminates them (like trying to explain the Eucharist using quantum physics :rolleyes:) or loses metaphors and relationships. My interpretation of Benedict, and I may be putting words in his mouth, is that by using models in parallel we can pull out core truths, leading to JPII’s truth cannot contradict truth.

My mission is to find out whether there is any possible conflict between the Catholic view of the soul and whatever science may say about free will. The Catechism appears to treat body and soul as a unity (367) so probably no issue there. I must admit to bypassing the Catholic Encyclopedia (I always shout at it, imho a wholesale revision is needed). Is there a deeper point of potential conflict, or is it fine and dandy?
To answer your question “Is there a deeper point of potential conflict, or is it fine and dandy?” The answer is yes. Especially on the university level. However, it is too frustrating for me to tackle this conflict here while ice-skating around serious issues.

Please note that it is my intention to respect the current ban in this Forum.
Sticky: Temporary Ban on Evolution/Atheism Threads
The comments below are for information only and need not be discussed per CAF rules.

Because free will is an essential characteristic of human nature, it naturally belongs in a discussion regarding the origin of Adam and Eve as specifically taught by the Catholic Church. One may discuss other scientific theories in the following thread in Back Fence Forum. Please check all the discussion guidelines in the stickies at the top of the forum.

Link to thread. Please note links within post 1 that lead to the guidelines.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=478146

Blessings,
granny

The quest for truth is worthy of the adventures of the journey.
 
To answer your question “Is there a deeper point of potential conflict, or is it fine and dandy?” The answer is yes. Especially on the university level. However, it is too frustrating for me to tackle this conflict here while ice-skating around serious issues.

Please note that it is my intention to respect the current ban in this Forum.
Sticky: Temporary Ban on Evolution/Atheism Threads
The comments below are for information only and need not be discussed per CAF rules.

Because free will is an essential characteristic of human nature, it naturally belongs in a discussion regarding the origin of Adam and Eve as specifically taught by the Catholic Church. One may discuss other scientific theories in the following thread in Back Fence Forum. Please check all the discussion guidelines in the stickies at the top of the forum.

Link to thread. Please note links within post 1 that lead to the guidelines.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=478146

Blessings,
granny

The quest for truth is worthy of the adventures of the journey.
I never read the ‘ban’ effectively - no discussion of atheism??? Who on Earth are we meant to be apologists against???

Free will surely isn’t specific to Catholicism, Christianity, or even theism! Oh dear - at this rate, I’d wonder what we are supposed to be discussing! :rolleyes:

Regarding Free will and science, I’d say this: Modernist Science likes free will as much as it likes God: That is, not at all. Both create variables which make absolutely accurate scientific calculation or prediction effectively nieve abstractions, should they exist - so, I think anyone who really wants science to work, would pretty much end up hoping, nay, fervently believing, by proxy, that neither exist at all… but that’s positivism for you! :rolleyes:
 
inocente;7174889:
My mission is to find out whether there is any possible conflict between the Catholic view of the soul and whatever science may say about free will. The Catechism appears to treat body and soul as a unity (367
) so probably no issue there. … Is there a deeper point of potential conflict, or is it fine and dandy?
To answer your question “Is there a deeper point of potential conflict, or is it fine and dandy?” The answer is yes. Especially on the university level. However, it is too frustrating for me to tackle this conflict here while ice-skating around serious issues.
granny

I’ll split my question then. On the nitty gritty thread I’ll ask about the Adam and Eve aspect.

On this thread, without touching on banned topics, suppose science comes up with a good model that explains free will and consciousness within your own mind. It all makes sense to you except that its physical explanation conflicts with our current view of the soul. My assumption is that this wouldn’t be much of an issue for future generations – they would focus on the explanatory aspects of both views (e.g. all human life is sacred) while using the technical to produce a new, truer synthesis.

Am I wrong or am I wrong?
 
the problem with free will from a scientific perspective is that the “self” that stands behind consciousness as a spectator and puppet master is no where to be found. it is a subjective experience rather than an objective thing. even the subjective experience of the self is known to dissolve in people’s prayers and meditations. consider this account of selfless consciousness…

"I recently spent an afternoon on the northwestern shore of the Sea of Galilee, atop the mount where Jesus is believed to have preached his most famous sermon. It was an infernally hot day, and the sanctuary was crowded with Christian pilgrims from many continents. Some gathered silently in the shade, while others staggered in the noonday sun, taking photographs.

As I sat and gazed upon the surrounding hills gently sloping to an inland sea, a feeling of peace came over me. It soon grew to a blissful stillness that silenced my thoughts. In an instant, the sense of being a separate self—an “I” or a “me”—vanished. Everything was as it had been—the cloudless sky, the pilgrims clutching their bottles of water—but I no longer felt like I was separate from the scene, peering out at the world from behind my eyes. Only the world remained.

The experience lasted just a few moments, but returned many times as I gazed out over the land where Jesus is believed to have walked, gathered his apostles, and worked many of his miracles. If I were a Christian, I would undoubtedly interpret this experience in Christian terms. I might believe that I had glimpsed the oneness of God, or felt the descent of the Holy Spirit.But I am not a Christian.

If I were a Hindu, I might talk about “Brahman,” the eternal Self, of which all individual minds are thought to be a mere modification. But I am not a Hindu. If I were a Buddhist, I might talk about the “dharmakaya of emptiness” in which all apparent things manifest. But I am not a Buddhist.

As someone who is simply making his best effort to be a rational human being, I am very slow to draw metaphysical conclusions from experiences of this sort. The truth is, I experience what I would call the “selflessness of consciousness” rather often, wherever I happen to meditate—be it in a Buddhist monastery, a Hindu temple, or while having my teeth cleaned. Consequently, the fact that I also had this experience at a Christian holy site does not lend an ounce of credibility to the doctrine of Christianity.

There is no question that people have “spiritual” experiences (I use words like “spiritual” and “mystical” in scare quotes, because they come to us trailing a long tail of metaphysical debris). Every culture has produced people who have gone off into caves for months or years and discovered that certain deliberate uses of attention—introspection, meditation, prayer—can radically transform a person’s moment to moment perception of the world. I believe contemplative efforts of this sort have a lot to tell us about the nature of the mind.

There are, in fact, several points of convergence between the modern sciences of the mind—psychology, neuroscience, cognitive science, etc.—and some of our contemplative traditions. Both lines of inquiry, for instance, give us good reasons to believe that the conventional sense of self is a kind of cognitive illusion. While most of us go through life feeling like we are the thinker of our thoughts and the experiencer of our experience, from the perspective of science we know that this is a false view. There is no discrete self or ego lurking like a minotaur in the labyrinth of the brain. There is no region of cortex or stream of neural processing that occupies a privileged position with respect to our personhood. There is no unchanging “center of narrative gravity” (to use fellow “On Faith” panelist Daniel Dennett’s fine phrase).

In subjective terms, however, there seems to be one—to most of us, most of the time. But our contemplative traditions (Hindu, Buddhist, Christian, Muslim, Jewish, etc.) also attest, to varying degrees and with greater or lesser precision, that this point of view is vulnerable to inquiry.

Consider what the brain is doing as a matter of conscious representation. What are we conscious of? We are conscious of the world; we are conscious of our bodies in the world; and we are—we think—conscious of our selves in our bodies. After all, most of us don’t feel merely identical to our bodies. We feel, most of the time, like we are riding around inside our bodies, as though we are an inner subject that can utilize the body as a kind of object. This last representation is an illusion, and can be dispelled as such. Selflessness is a quality of consciousness that can be subjectively discovered. Indeed, it is in plain view in every present moment, and yet it remains difficult to see. If this seems like a paradox, consider the following analogy:

The optic nerve passes through the retina, so as to create a point in each of our visual fields where we are effectively blind. Most of us had this demonstrated to us in school: one marks a piece of paper, closes an eye, and then moves the paper into a position where the mark disappears. Of course, only a small minority of people in history have been aware of their blind spots. And even those of us who know about them go for decades without noticing them as a matter of direct perception. And yet they are always there, available to be noticed.

There is an analogous insight into the nature of consciousness—too near to us, in a sense, to be easily seen. For most people it requires considerable training in meditation to catch a glimpse of it. But it is possible to notice that consciousness—that in you which is aware of your experience in this moment—does not feel like a self. It does not feel like “I.”"

newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/panelists/sam_harris/2007/01/consciousness_without_faith_1.html
 
the problem with free will from a scientific perspective is that the “self” that stands behind consciousness as a spectator and puppet master is no where to be found. it is a subjective experience rather than an objective thing. even the subjective experience of the self is known to dissolve in people’s prayers and meditations. consider this account of selfless consciousness…

You left out part of your Sam Harris quote.
“As a critic of religious faith, I am often asked what will replace organized religion. The answer is: many things and nothing. Nothing need replace its ludicrous and divisive elements. Nothing need replace the idea that Jesus will return to earth wielding magic powers and hurl unbelievers into a lake of fire. Nothing need replace the notion that death in defense of Islam is the highest good. These are baseless, dangerous, and demeaning ideas.”
 
granny

I’ll split my question then. On the nitty gritty thread I’ll ask about the Adam and Eve aspect.

On this thread, without touching on banned topics, suppose science comes up with a good model that explains free will and consciousness within your own mind. It all makes sense to you except that its physical explanation conflicts with our current view of the soul. My assumption is that this wouldn’t be much of an issue for future generations – they would focus on the explanatory aspects of both views (e.g. all human life is sacred) while using the technical to produce a new, truer synthesis.

Am I wrong or am I wrong?
Am I wrong or am I wrong? :rotfl:

The key is understanding the methods used to form the “free will and consciousness” model. Someone posted a link to the Benjamin Libet experiment. Since I don’t have sound, I focused on the woman’s eyes and the tenseness in her fingers. While this experiment may have conclusions regarding brain impulses and physical movements, it cannot be translated into real life experiences of intellect and will.

In my humble observation, the conflict is between having wires attached to one’s head and not having wires attached to one’s head. 😛

That is about all I can say because of the ban.
 
Rocinante;7178826:
the problem with free will from a scientific perspective is that the “self” that stands behind consciousness as a spectator and puppet master is no where to be found. it is a subjective experience rather than an objective thing. even the subjective experience of the self is known to dissolve in people’s prayers and meditations. consider this account of selfless consciousness…

You left out part of your Sam Harris quote.
“As a critic of religious faith, I am often asked what will replace organized religion. The answer is: many things and nothing. Nothing need replace its ludicrous and divisive elements. Nothing need replace the idea that Jesus will return to earth wielding magic powers and hurl unbelievers into a lake of fire. Nothing need replace the notion that death in defense of Islam is the highest good. These are baseless, dangerous, and demeaning ideas.”
in the interest of respecting people’s time i did snip that bit, but those are good points as well.
 
does anyone know anything about the history of this notion of free will? where does it come from?
 
the problem with free will from a scientific perspective is that the “self” that stands behind consciousness as a spectator and puppet master is no where to be found. it is a subjective experience rather than an objective thing. even the subjective experience of the self is known to dissolve in people’s prayers and meditations. consider this account of selfless consciousness…

blah blah blah

more blah blah blah

"There is an analogous insight into the nature of consciousness—too near to us, in a sense, to be easily seen. For most people it requires considerable training in meditation to catch a glimpse of it. But it is possible to notice that consciousness—that in you which is aware of your experience in this moment—does not feel like a self. It does not feel like “I.”
taking a moment of awe and turning into arguement that?
So when I’m watchng a movie and I “get into it” it’s the same thng?
Or watching a sporting event?
Anytime I clear my mind of random thoughts?

Enough of this quote, it’s ridiculous.
 
taking a moment of awe and turning into arguement that?
So when I’m watchng a movie and I “get into it” it’s the same thng?
Or watching a sporting event?
Anytime I clear my mind of random thoughts?

Enough of this quote, it’s ridiculous.
I had to add:

When I was in the Marines, I would go out on patrol and pretty much lose all thoughts in my mind and become “one with the world”. My senses were heightened. Was at this moment wthout “self”? Of course not. Same thing when I played sports and became concentrated on the game.
 
taking a moment of awe and turning into arguement that?
So when I’m watchng a movie and I “get into it” it’s the same thng?
Or watching a sporting event?
Anytime I clear my mind of random thoughts?

Enough of this quote, it’s ridiculous.
no, this isn’t about getting into a movie or sporting event.

i suppose it would sound ridiculous to anyone who has never had such an experience, but people all over the world and throughout history and across cultures attest to having these mystical experiences. the problem for the objectivity of the phenomenon is that one has to “build his own telescope” through learning how to pray or meditate properly before he can verify the reality of what mystics throughout the world are talking about.

there are of course catholic mystics such as Teresa of Avila.
 
no, this isn’t about getting into a movie or sporting event.

i suppose it would sound ridiculous to anyone who has never had such an experience, but people all over the world and throughout history and across cultures attest to having these mystical experiences. the problem for the objectivity of the phenomenon is that one has to “build his own telescope” through learning how to pray or meditate properly before he can verify the reality of what mystics throughout the world are talking about.

there are of course catholic mystics such as Teresa of Avila.
clearing your mind of thoughts? He’s reaching IMO. I’ll lose my “self” in my next game of darts and chaulk it up as a “mystical experience” 😃
 
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