Free Will: Foreknowledge

[Pitcharan]

God is Omnipresent. So he is in space and time. Past present and future he exists. Omnipresent means everywhere. So there is no way he can be outside of time and not exist within time. If he did not exist within time he would not be omnipresent.

Being present everywhere means everything is within his sight. It has nothing to do with time or space.

 

[Sacred_Heart_1]

If I give a five-year-old a true choice (that is, I really will let him have whatever he says) between eating spinach and eating candy, I know in advance what he will choose. That doesn’t mean that I agree with the choice, and it doesn’t mean that he really didn’t have a choice. It just means that I knew, in advance, what his choice would be.

Similarly, I can tell you right now what President Obama or Speaker Boehner will do if a bill comes up that eliminates taxes on the poor and pays for it by doubling taxes on the rich. That doesn’t mean I approve of either man’s decision, and it doesn’t mean they lack free will.

Free will exists; that has been demostrated empirically over the centuries. Just because God knows what decisions we will make doesn’t mean that we didn’t make them. We’re responsible for our choices, however predictable they are.

Maybe you just think you have free will because God is infinite.

 

[Sacred_Heart_1]

If you see two approaching each other on a collision course you have foreknowledge of the accident. Did you cause the accident?

Are you God?

 

[rom422]

God knows future free events. However, future free events will happen not because God knows them. Rather, He knows them because they will happen.

The key to understanding how there can be free choice with God’s knowledge of future free events lies in understanding the two different durations of God and His creatures. Creatures live in the time duration. They have a past, a present (now), and a future. However, God is eternal and, therefore, outside of time. In His eternal duration, there is no past or future, but only an ever-present NOW.

Every moment of time in a creature’s duration is simultaneous with God’s NOW. This means that when there exists an event at any moment of time, God also exists and sees that event in His ever-present NOW. Because God always IS. God’s existence is, in a sense, immobile, unbounded and always present. Unlike God, we exist only in the now, because our past existence is already gone and our future is not yet. That is what is meant by temporality as distinguished from God’s eternity. Temporality consists in the continuous acquisition of existence in time. Whereas eternity is the total possession of unbounded existence in an ever-present NOW.

When a free creature will make a future choice, the event may be future to him. But God sees that same event in His eternal NOW because the creature’s future act is simultaneous with His NOW. Strictly speaking, therefore, God does not foresee the future, He sees, rather than foresees, the creature’s future free choices.

For God, therefore, a creature’s free choices are strictly unforeseen and unforeseeable. He knows in His NOW what the creature will freely choose, but that is only because His NOW is also simultaneous with that future time when the creature will makes his free choice. In the creature there is a distinction between the present time (before he makes the choice) and a future time (when he actually makes the choice). But in God, whose NOW is simultaneous with every moment of time, there are not several instants but only one instant: the ever-present NOW.

Perhaps you can think of world events as frames in a motion picture film. When the movie is played frames are displayed sequentially on the screen. Things appear to move and happen in time while the movie is going on. That is our vision of time. Now, imagine that you completely unroll the long film and lay it flat on a very long table. Also, imagine that you, like God, have the capacity to see all the frames simultaneously, so that you see all the events from beginning to end at one and the same instant. That is our vision of eternity.

That, friends, is a very simplified analogy, very crude and very imperfect. But it is the best that I could invent to explain what is so difficult to explain.

Good night, everyone!

 

[belorg]

God knows future free events. However, future free events will happen not because God knows them. Rather, He knows them because they will happen.

Sure, but that’s not really relevant.

When a free creature will make a future choice, the event may be future to him. But God sees that same event in His eternal NOW because the creature’s future act is simultaneous with His NOW. Strictly speaking, therefore, God does not foresee the future, He sees, rather than foresees, the creature’s future free choices.
For God, therefore, a creature’s free choices are strictly unforeseen and unforeseeable. He knows in His NOW what the creature will freely choose, but that is only because His NOW is also simultaneous with that future time when the creature will makes his free choice. In the creature there is a distinction between the present time (before he makes the choice) and a future time (when he actually makes the choice). But in God, whose NOW is simultaneous with every moment of time, there are not several instants but only one instant: the ever-present NOW.

Which means reality is fixed and the future cannot be chnaged any more than the past can. Which means everything is determined, which means there is no libertarian free will.

Perhaps you can think of world events as frames in a motion picture film. When the movie is played frames are displayed sequentially on the screen. Things appear to move and happen in time while the movie is going on. That is our vision of time. Now, imagine that you completely unroll the long film and lay it flat on a very long table. Also, imagine that you, like God, have the capacity to see all the frames simultaneously, so that you see all the events from beginning to end at one and the same instant. That is our vision of eternity.

If God can see all the frames at the same time, then that means the frames of the future have already been filmed, which means that it has been determined that on frame 256 522 884 886 994 441 117 703 775 I will drink a glass of wine and my future grandson on frame 256 522 884 886 994 441 821 248 002 will marry a girl named Ann.

 

[rom422]

Sure, but that’s not really relevant.

We are talking about free will and foreknowledge, right? So, how is that not relevant?

Which means reality is fixed and the future cannot be chnaged any more than the past can. Which means everything is determined, which means there is no libertarian free will.

Non-sequitur. I can change my future actions freely, and God sees that I am changing them freely.

If God can see all the frames at the same time, then that means the frames of the future have already been filmed, which means that it has been determined that on frame 256 522 884 886 994 441 117 703 775 I will drink a glass of wine and my future grandson on frame 256 522 884 886 994 441 821 248 002 will marry a girl named Ann.

The movie analogy is not perfect because you don’t see the actors are acting freely in each frame.

 

[Buck_Crosswhite]

The future is not predetermined. It can be changed.

 

[belorg]

We are talking about free will and foreknowledge, right? So, how is that not relevant?

Because I am not claiming that God’s knowledge is the cause of a decision, I am claiming that the fact that God (or anybody else for that matter) can know a decision with 100% certainty entails that this decision is a fact that cannot be changed. Who or what exactly determined the decision is not relevant.

Non-sequitur. I can change my future actions freely, and God sees that I am changing them freely.

Not if the futue is fixed, as in a film.

The movie analogy is not perfect because you don’t see the actors are acting freely in each frame.

the movie analogy would only be perfect if there were different movies for each decision we make. But then God cannot see ‘a movie’.

 

[belorg]

The future is not predetermined. It can be changed.

Then it cannot be known.

 

[MindOverMatter2]

If theer is no foreknowledge but only knowledge, then our choices have already been made even before we were created. On such a scenario everything is predetermined, everything your are going to do tomorrow is alrdeay a fact. .

But this is not determined outside of the fact that we are the ones that choose it.

 

[belorg]

But this is not determined outside of the fact that we are the ones that choose it.

Since it has already been determined before we were even born, how can we be the ones to choose it?

 

[MindOverMatter2]

Since it has already been determined before we were even born, how can we be the ones to choose it?

That a thing is true or will be true, does not preclude the possibility that our choosing it is the reason for why it is true. For example, It is true that I will choose to do something tomorrow; but it is only true because I am going to do it; the truth of it does not determine the fact of it. Now lets say that a scientists finds a way to stand outside of time itself and as a result sees all factual truths (everything that has happened and will happen); his knowledge of that timeless truth does not cause the truth that he has gained knowledge of since it first has to be “true” in-order for him to have knowledge of it as a truth or fact in the first place.

The onus is on you to prove that knowledge of truth causes truth; is deterministic.

 

[rom422]

Because I am not claiming that God’s knowledge is the cause of a decision, I am claiming that the fact that God (or anybody else for that matter) can know a decision with 100% certainty entails that this decision is a fact that cannot be changed. Who or what exactly determined the decision is not relevant.

What is relevant is that the future free act of a creature remains free in spite of the fact that God knows it. This is because God sees the future free act as a free act. The fact that the future free act can no longer be changed does not remove the fact that it is still a free act. In the same manner, you could look at the past and see the free actions you’ve done in the past. But you can’t change them anymore either, right? So, the fact that you know those free past acts with 100% certainty does not remove the fact that those past actions were free acts. That is the same with God’s knowledge, but only looking toward the future rather than toward the past. He sees your future free acts as free acts. That you couldn’t change that in His NOW vantage point does not render the act unfree. The good news is that from your temporal vantage point, the future is not yet. So, you can still make free choices that would impact your future, and God sees your present and future free choices accordingly.

Not if the futue is fixed, as in a film.

Your future choices are not fixed, but free. However, just as your free past actions are already fixed now, so your future choices are free choices that are fixed in the future or in God’s ever-present NOW.

the movie analogy would only be perfect if there were different movies for each decision we make. But then God cannot see ‘a movie’.

I never said that the movie analogy was perfect. I just hoped it would help you understand how God sees future events “all at once” from His vantage point, while they unfold in time from our vantage point. The film analogy is not perfect because each frame is a “still” picture that does not really portray the dynamics of human freedom. The actors in the cinema are moving according to a fixed sequence fixed in the film, whereas God sees the drama of human existence as a sequence of free events unfolding in time.

 

[belorg]

That a thing is true or will be true, does not preclude the possibility that our choosing it is the reason for why it is true. For example, It is true that I will choose to do something tomorrow; but it is only true because I am going to do it; the truth of it does not determine the fact of it. Now lets say that a scientists finds a way to stand outside of time itself and as a result sees all factual truths (everything that has happened and will happen); his knowledge of that timeless truth does not cause the truth that he has gained knowledge of since it first has to be “true” in-order for him to have knowledge of it as a truth or fact in the first place.

If a scientist finds a way to stand outside of time and sees** factual** truths it is because these truths are factual. IOW everything you will do tomorrow, next year and 10 years from now is a factual truth now. And it was a factual trutyh before you were born. Hence there is nothing you can do to change it. Hence you don’t have counterfactual (AKA libertarian) free will.

It is impossible to have factual kniowledge of counterfactuals… That’s just plain logic.

The onus is on you to prove that knowledge of truth causes truth; is deterministic

I am not making the claim that knowledge of truth causes truth. All I am making is in fact the very trivial claim that knowledge of a truth entails that there is a truth. I don’t think you will dispute that.

 

[belorg]

What is relevant is that the future free act of a creature remains free in spite of the fact that God knows it. This is because God sees the future free act as a free act. The fact that the future free act can no longer be changed does not remove the fact that it is still a free act.

It’s not that it ‘no longer can be chaged’. it is the fact that it could never have been different from what it is. Your ‘free act’ was true before you made the choice.

In the same manner, you could look at the past and see the free actions you’ve done in the past. But you can’t change them anymore either, right?

No, but if they were truly libertarian free acts, I could have chosen to do somthing else at the moment I made the choice. But if the future is fixed then I can only make one choice tomorrow.

That you couldn’t change that in His NOW vantage point does not render the act unfree.

You can’t change that in any vantage point.

The good news is that from your temporal vantage point, the future is not yet.

That only means I have limited knowledge.

So, you can still make free choices that would impact your future, and God sees your present and future free choices accordingly.

No, I can’t. I can only choose one thing, namely the thing God saw me choose.
What you are describing is an act of compatibilist free will.
I could say the same from a purely naturalistic, deterministic POV. Even though my choice is the result of the way elementary particles and atoms and photons etc. are arranged and I cannt do anything about it, since I don’t know the detremined outcome, I can still ‘make a choice’. No probelm with that. But it is not libertarian free will.

Your future choices are not fixed, but free. However, just as your free past actions are already fixed now, so your future choices are free choices that are fixed in the future or in God’s ever-present NOW.

So they are fixed.

I never said that the movie analogy was perfect. I just hoped it would help you understand how God sees future events “all at once” from His vantage point, while they unfold in time from our vantage point. The film analogy is not perfect because each frame is a “still” picture that does not really portray the dynamics of human freedom. The actors in the cinema are moving according to a fixed sequence fixed in the film, whereas God sees the drama of human existence as a sequence of free events unfolding in time.

They are moving according to a fixed sequence. So, their sequence is fixed.
If each frame were to portray the dynamics of human freedom, God could not possibly see this as a ‘still’ picture. The reason is that in that case, there would not be one future, but virtually infinte futures.

 

[MindOverMatter2]

If a scientist finds a way to stand outside of time and sees** factual** truths it is because these truths are factual. IOW everything you will do tomorrow, next year and 10 years from now is a factual truth now. And it was a factual trutyh before you were born. Hence there is nothing you can do to change it.

So what? So long as the fact remains that people freely choose that which is known to be true, then this does not interfere with freewill, since the knowledge you have is of peoples free actions. A thing is true according to its contents, and you can only have knowledge of that which is true. This is to say that truth is not something separate from its contents.

Hence you don’t have counterfactual (AKA libertarian) free will.

There is no contradiction between “timeless-knowledge” and freewill.

It is impossible to have factual kniowledge of counterfactuals.

I agree.

I am not making the claim that knowledge of truth causes truth.

You could have fooled me.

All I am making is in fact the very trivial claim that knowledge of a truth entails that there is a truth. I don’t think you will dispute that.

No I will not.

 

[belorg]

So what? So long as the fact remains that people freely choose that which is known to be true, then this does not interfere with freewill, since the knowledge you have is of peoples free actions. A thing is true according to its contents, and you can only have knowledge of that which is true. This is to say that truth is not something separate from its contents.

This is called compatibilist free will. Af I have repeatedly siad, I have no problem with that because I am a compatibilist myself.

There is no contradiction between “timeless-knowledge” and freewill.

That’s true, there is no contradiction between timeless-knowledge and compatibilist free will.

I agree.

OK, then what are we arguing about.

You could have fooled me.

Well, you seem to be easilty fooled then, because nothing I said entails this.

No I will not.

Great. So we are both compatibilists.

 

[rom422]

It’s not that it ‘no longer can be chaged’. it is the fact that it could never have been different from what it is. Your ‘free act’ was true before you made the choice.

My future free acts could have been different, just as my past free acts could have been different.

No, but if they were truly libertarian free acts, I could have chosen to do somthing else at the moment I made the choice. But if the future is fixed then I can only make one choice tomorrow.

From your vantage point the future is not fixed until the future comes. So you could still make a different choice tomorrow. The future is only fixed in God’s vantage point because He sees what you will freely do as something that is being freely done in His NOW. Do not confuse “fixity in knowledge” as determinateness in reality. The past is also fixed in your present knowledge, and you can’t change it anymore. But whatever you did freely in the past was done freely. The same is true in the future. Whatever you will freely do in the future will be freely done in the future, although from God’s vantage point, your future free act is already fixed in His knowledge.

You can’t change that in any vantage point.

Yes you can change your future free acts from your vantage point, because from your vantage point the future is not yet. And if the future is not yet, then it is not yet fixed. The future is only fixed in God’s vantage point because the future free act is already seen as happening in His NOW. This is exactly why from His vantage point He could not anticipate what you will freely do before you do it. Because in His vantage point, there is no “before.”

That only means I have limited knowledge.

Not only limited knowledge, but also limited being. You don’t have that future existence yet by which you could do a future act.

No, I can’t. I can only choose one thing, namely the thing God saw me choose.
What you are describing is an act of compatibilist free will.
I could say the same from a purely naturalistic, deterministic POV. Even though my choice is the result of the way elementary particles and atoms and photons etc. are arranged and I cannt do anything about it, since I don’t know the detremined outcome, I can still ‘make a choice’. No probelm with that. But it is not libertarian free will.

Yes you can. Because that one thing that God sees you choose is the very same thing that you will freely choose. No ontological determinism here. Your free acts are free, even if God knows them all.

So they are fixed.

Yes, your future free choices are fixed in God’s knowledge, just as your past free choices are fixed in your present knowledge. But fixity in God’s knowledge or your knowledge will not remove your freedom of choice. Just as you were free when you acted in the past, you will be free when you act in the future.

They are moving according to a fixed sequence. So, their sequence is fixed.
If each frame were to portray the dynamics of human freedom, God could not possibly see this as a ‘still’ picture. The reason is that in that case, there would not be one future, but virtually infinte futures.

Unlike a film, human life is not a finished product. As a being living in time, you are open to a multitude of possible futures depending on your free choices. Your freedom is not being removed by the fact that in His NOW God sees you choosing what you will freely choose in your future existence.

Belorg, I am sorry that you do not understand. But I did my best. I will not continue anymore, and as before, I’ll let you make a final response. But before we part, I’d like to share a story. It was said that in one city there was a street where the Determinist Club was located. Across the street was the Libertarian’s Club. A man first went to the Determinist Club to join. “Why do you want to join us?” a Determinist asked. He replied, “Because I choose to.” He was kicked out. So he went across the street to join the Libertarian’s Club. They asked him the same question, “Why do you want to join us?” He answered, “Well, I have no more choice.” So he was kicked out again.

If that story made you smile, then I am happy. Thank you for this dialogue.

 

[Swiss_Guy]

I think we could all agree that God had foreknowledge of all of creation, through all eternity, from the beginning.

Foreknowledge is before creation. It is an act of creation; since everything created comes from God’s foreknowledge.

Your free will began in God’s foreknowledge. Your free will did not exist prior to God’s foreknowledge. Your free will does not dictate God’s foreknowledge. If you had not existed in God’s foreknowledge then you would not exist. If you exist from God (foreknowledge) then your free will is created.

There is no free will since it exists from and is created by God.

So there is no free will because God created free will? That doesn’t make sense. There is free will because God created us with free will. We are made in the image of God, and since God has free will we do to. God knew what decisions we would make (and what decisions we could make if we chose differently), but how do you come to the conclusion that we don’t have free will?

 

[tonyrey]

Would you say that a thought is a divine activity? Foreknowledge is thought and thought is will and will is the force behind creation. The thought of foreknowledge is an action within God prior to his action of creation.

It was God’s free will that consented to his foreknowledge. Had his will not consented to the foreknowledge of his creation he would not have created it.

I think it is a mistake to describe the eternal God in temporal terms. Thoughts and decisions are different aspects of His activity.