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PJM
Guest
Hi,
My disclaimer
I’m not a philosopher, I’m not even highly educated. I’m just a life long informed, practicing Roman Catholic in Love with Jesus.
It seems to me prudent to apply some basic logic to the issue of freewill.
Humanity alone is created “in the image and likeness of God” which we learn in Gen. 1:26-27.
So in what manner are we created in the image of God?
God is spirit, and so are our minds, intellects and freewills. It would seem that it is in this limited manner, that we are “made in Gods image.”
So again using logic, it seems prudent to ask Why? Is there a precise reason humanity alone of all of Gods Created Universe, is so blessed? The answer seemingly has to be “yes” simply because God is both Perfect and all-Knowing. He cannot error, and He cannot waste attributes.
So can humanity on there own understand, and discover this precise reason for our creation, with the gifts we have? Perhaps, but with great difficulty.
However, with Gods assistance it is quite possible for us to do so.
The Psalms, 150 being an excellent example shows that our early brethern undersood the answer. Isaiah 43: 7,21 and Romans 14:11-12, “nail it.”
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Romans 14: ** * 11"for it is written, “As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall give praise to God.” So each of us shall give account of himself to God." *
Archbishop Fulton Sheen, in his book The Life of Christ, makes clear that the Bible is far more about God searching for a relationship with us, then it is about we seeking a relationship with God.
The Incarnation has mutiple signifiance. Redemption and allowing humanity “to see the face of God” and thereby enter into a personal relationship with Him, are the two I point out here.
Well, thanks for allowing me to post with the real thinkers.
Love and prayers,
Pat
My disclaimer
I’m not a philosopher, I’m not even highly educated. I’m just a life long informed, practicing Roman Catholic in Love with Jesus.
It seems to me prudent to apply some basic logic to the issue of freewill.
Humanity alone is created “in the image and likeness of God” which we learn in Gen. 1:26-27.
So in what manner are we created in the image of God?
God is spirit, and so are our minds, intellects and freewills. It would seem that it is in this limited manner, that we are “made in Gods image.”
So again using logic, it seems prudent to ask Why? Is there a precise reason humanity alone of all of Gods Created Universe, is so blessed? The answer seemingly has to be “yes” simply because God is both Perfect and all-Knowing. He cannot error, and He cannot waste attributes.
So can humanity on there own understand, and discover this precise reason for our creation, with the gifts we have? Perhaps, but with great difficulty.
However, with Gods assistance it is quite possible for us to do so.
The Psalms, 150 being an excellent example shows that our early brethern undersood the answer. Isaiah 43: 7,21 and Romans 14:11-12, “nail it.”
**
Romans 14: ** * 11"for it is written, “As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall give praise to God.” So each of us shall give account of himself to God." *
Archbishop Fulton Sheen, in his book The Life of Christ, makes clear that the Bible is far more about God searching for a relationship with us, then it is about we seeking a relationship with God.
The Incarnation has mutiple signifiance. Redemption and allowing humanity “to see the face of God” and thereby enter into a personal relationship with Him, are the two I point out here.
Well, thanks for allowing me to post with the real thinkers.
Love and prayers,
Pat
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Erchomai_Kyrios
Guest
Actually, since the Bible teaches that everything came into being from His Word so I believe that is true. His Word is transcendent through time and in time through the person of Jesus the Christ and Son of God. The Bible also says man was made in His image, which also infers subset. Yet man is subordinate to God by the fact that God is uncreated and we, being dependent upon God, are created in His image.
You speak in finite terms my friend. Eternity encompasses time only in the aspect that time was born of it and had its beginning from what preceeded from it - the Word of God. It also in the same manner has its end in eternity, since His Word shall not return unto Him void but accomplish all it set out to do. There is no beginning or end to eternity so saying that something is LOGICALLY PRIOR has no relevant meaning. There is no eternity past or eternity future there is only eternity which encompasses all time. This is why at times when Jesus is speaking about the will of God it may at times sounds like double speak. Inferences where it is already completed but yet is now being accomplished are threaded throughout bith the Old and New Testament. The Father says the same thing to Him.
LOGICALLY PRIOR seems to be a recurrent theme of yours. When did eternity begin? And when exactly does it end?
Certainly not, but by subordinating eternity to time it would appear you have made an error in logic.
Free means just what it implies - that there is choice. One can choose to repent (which means turn from their sin and believe in the Word, Christ Jesus, or not. He chooses to save us but His promises are true and He is to be taken at His Word. He will have mercy upon who He wills but He has told us He will in no way reject us if we truly come to Him. Knowlege of destiny is foreknown because eternity is already complete - you cannot add or subtract anything from it - it just is just as God is, and told Mosed “I AM” tell them that “I AM” sent you. Choice, however, exists in time not eternity, and has been created because God is good and freewill is good.
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PJM
Guest
Here is an example of “free”
You’re standing on the edge of a fifty mile high cliff, and it occours to you that that can choose to jump or not choose to jump.
God knows which decision your going to make. Does that in your understanding mean its NOT your choice? Of course it is your choice!
Because one can, has never meant that one should. That friend is why God gifts us with an intellect, mind and the freewill to properly apply both.
God simply can’t MAKE any one do either a Good thing, or a BAD thing. That is why He gave us these special gifts. God does not comdem anyone, He only affirms there life decisions.
Your logic escapes me. You seem to trying to “pass the buck.” But guess what, the buck stops with your own decisions.
Love and prayers,
E
Erchomai_Kyrios
Guest
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PJM
Guest
=Erchomai Kyrios;5745911]I guess I’m somewhat confused by the response since I was arguing that free will does indeed exist and that is both in the Nature of God and innate in man - had to be in order for us to fall. :ballspin: Somehow what I said seems to have gotten turned on its head.
Darn, I hate it when that happens!A question for you:
What is the “normal” relationship between ones freewill and “free-thought?”
Love and prayers,
E
Erchomai_Kyrios
Guest
I will attempt to answer your question if you can elaborate on ‘free thought’ - what exactly do you mean by that and what is the genesis of our thoughts?
A question for you:
What is the “normal” relationship between ones freewill and “free-thought?”
Love and prayers,
M
morgantj
Guest
If god is all knowing, than god already knows what you are going to do even before you do it. Since god knows what you are going to do before you do, god knows your exact path in life, than that means your path is certain to be what he already knows about. If your path is already set and know, than you cannot do otherwise. If you cannot do otherwise, you do not have free-will. An all knowing god = determinism. No free-will.
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morgantj
Guest
If god already knows whether you are going to jump or not before you do, You will perform the action that god already knows you will do. You will not and cannot do otherwise. God knows this already, but you don’t. Since your path is already known to god, then we know your path is already laid out. Since your path is already laid out, you cannot do otherwise. What appears to be other options aren’t really options at all, they are just further conditions that contribute to you taking the path you must take. So you see, that is NOT an example of “free.”
Obviously.
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PJM
Guest
Hi Joe,
It is the Divine Nature of God to “be everything that is GOOD-Perfectly.”
Certainly God is “all-knowing” [Sirach 15:19], He is also “all-JUST” [Psalm 111:7] and “all-FAIR” [1 Peter 2:23].
It is in understanding a bit about Gods perfect and unchangeable Divine Nature that we can know the precise reason why like God Himself [us imperfect / God PEFRECT] Creates humanity with a mind, intellect and freewill. All three of which are necessary to employ the “freewill.”
One must not confuse “foreknowledge” by God, in any way effecting the act of one’s influencing one’s “freewill,” otherwise it could not and would not be a “free-will.” God, being God and CREATOR, simply could not give us an attribute that we could not use. It’s impossible for God to go back on His Created Promise to us.
So if God literally [God’s Divine plan for our Creation] cannot influence our “freewill,” then God must have had a specifi reason for giving it to us. God is perfect, and can’t make a mistake.
Isaiah 43: 7, 21 , Rom. 14:11 explain the reason. We are to know, love and serve God; to PRAISE and Worship God in this life [and freely decide to do so] so that we can enjoy Eternal Life with God.
Love is far more than an emotion, it is a conscious decision, that too requires our minds, intellects and freewills, so that we can choose to love someone we may not like or respect. Because God is “perfect Love,” God desires, even demands “love returned for love given.”
We should note that our “minds, intellects and freewills” are all “SPIRITUAL THINGS.” We can show that they exist, but not quantify them. This is another evidence of this understanding. God too is SPIRIT.
Summation: God simply cannot override what He Himself Created for the precise purpose of us “Knowing, Loving and serving Him.”
Love and prayers,
E
Erchomai_Kyrios
Guest
Yes but foreknowledge does not cancel free will! The gnostics preached there was no free will back in the 2nd century and were opposed by many writings of the early church Fathers. As early as Justin Martyr 130 AD and Irenaeus 160 AD we learn this directly from those who were 2 generations removed from the Apostles themselves.
Read also Deut 30:19-20, Prov 1:29-31 Isaiah 1:19-20
How could the Lord require anything of you if you have no choice to begin with? Very strange doctrine from that fellow Calvin but nothing new - we find it also in the gnostic sects and find its root in fatalist philosophy.
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morgantj
Guest
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Tomb54
Guest
The question you have to answer then is; was it set before you made the decision in time or after because of the decision you made. If it was already set before you made the decision then you are not making any decision as the decision was not your to make and thus you might as well do nothing because you are nothing more then a robot. Are you a robot that can not think for yourself? But if it was after you made the decision then it was free will and you better make the right decision since it is your to make. God just knows what your decision is going to be but as you live it is not set and it is your decision.
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morgantj
Guest
You might as well do nothing? You are still acting as though you would still have free-will. You can’t do nothing by choice, you can only do nothing if god has determined you to do nothing. Nobody likes the idea of not having control, but according to that verse, we do not, whether we like it or not.
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Tomb54
Guest
As you say you are then a robot and all you do is already planned (not just known) so you might as well do whatever you want like kill someone or steal or have sinful fun or anything else because why not you are already going to heaven or hell anyway and what ever you do is already planned so why not? In otherwords why even try to be good because if you are right you can’t try to be good anyway.
And afterward offered the continual burnt offering, both of the new moons, and of all the set feasts of the LORD that were consecrated, and of every one that willingly offered a freewill offering unto the LORD.
Ezra 3:4-6 How can there be a freewill offering is there is no freewill?
I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
Deuteronomy 30:18-20 How can you choose life if you have no freewill?
I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints,”- Ephesians 1:18 There is no hope if it is already all planned out so why hope?
And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind: for the LORD searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: if thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever.
1 Chronicles 28:8-10 Why is he told to serve since he has no choice what he does anyway? How can you have a willing mind if you can’t think for yourself and choose any thing for yourself?
I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.
Jeremiah 17:9-11 How can it be according to his ways since he has no choice what his ways are? By your thinking it is only Gods way and man has no choise in his ways because he is a robot. A robot is a preprogramed machine and this is what you are saying we are. Right?
If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father.
John 15:23-25 How can Jesus say they choose to hate when he knows they have no choice as it is all planned?
They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.
Titus 1:15-16 How can they be disobedient if they have no choice? They are only doing what is planned and that is obedience isn’t it?
You can not be judged if you have no choices.
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morgantj
Guest
You are still acting like you have free-will in what is obviously a deterministic case. You can’t do whatever you like, you will only do what god has determined you to do. Sometimes he determines you do do what you like, and other times not. He determines whether or not you even try to be good or not. And hey, who can argue with the word of the bible? That is what it says - “We can make our plans, but the LORD determines our steps.” - Proverbs 16:9
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Tomb54
Guest
And you are doing what so many others do and take one verse that supports what you want to believe and ignore all other verses that tell the whole truth. As stated before by others and by several other verses that you will not answer how scripture says people have choices foreknowledge does not do away with free will whether you want it too or not.
out of Peter since you actually believe the bible I guess
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is long suffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
This verse makes no sense based on your belief. Why would God wait for men to choose if they have no choice? Predeterminism by your statement means no choice.
17Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
Again makes no sense based on your belief, but you might be trying to lead people away. But I guess you can’t help it since you believe your path is set and fixed and you can’t even decide what you believe or not. If fact you can’t even truly believe, come to think of it, since believing means a personal choice.
16As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. if you can’t argue with the bible then you need to find what His church teaches on this matter. Simple put foreknowledge does no negate freewill.
This one from Hebrews
17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit to them: for they watch in behalf of your souls, as they that shall give account; that they may do this with joy, and not with grief: for this were unprofitable for you.
But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
If you can’t argue with the bible then you need to find what His church teaches on this matter as stated in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Simple put foreknowledge does no negate freewill. You can not denie He stated a visible church that has existed since HE staed it and it is still here today. (Only 2 churches can trace their roots to the early church and prove the HS works through them)
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morgantj
Guest
So are you saying the verse I shared is untrue? Hey, it’s not my fault the bible contradicts itself.
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PJM
Guest
Friend your position is without any comon logic. “Freewill” is just that; the ability to determine and decide for ones self what one FREELY will or willnot do.
For example, you may chose with the same consequeces to reply to this post. God neither makes you do it, or prevents you from doing so. Yet God knows before hand what your decision will be.
Another example. Your standing on the edge of a cliff. You can jump off and kill yourself, or chose freely to step back and not kill yourself. The consequecences in this example are far more signifiant, and still it is you, who freely decides which action, which choice you will make. Again God neither MAKES you do it or PREVENTS you from doing it. Yet God knows the decision your going to make.
To deny this reality is to deny freewill itself, which simply is impossible to prove.
One cannot logically claim that “God’s foreknowledge” in anyway determines, effects or causes one to do “such and such.” Indeep not even satan has tghe power to effect ones freewill. Satan gains acess and at times control through our emotions!
Friend you are not properly applying your mind and intellect, which like your freewill are too Spiritual Gifts from God, as God planed for you to use them. Your position lacks merit and logic.
Love and prayers,
M
morgantj
Guest
So you believe that bible verse to be untrue? Just so you can convenience yourself with continuing to believe you have free-will? That my friend, is disingenuous. No matter, I suspect and understand you don’t have the intellectual capacity to understand.Friend your position is without any comon logic. “Freewill” is just that; the ability to determine and decide for ones self what one FREELY will or willnot do.
For example, you may chose with the same consequeces to reply to this post. God neither makes you do it, or prevents you from doing so. Yet God knows before hand what your decision will be.
Another example. Your standing on the edge of a cliff. You can jump off and kill yourself, or chose freely to step back and not kill yourself. The consequecences in this example are far more signifiant, and still it is you, who freely decides which action, which choice you will make. Again God neither MAKES you do it or PREVENTS you from doing it. Yet God knows the decision your going to make.
To deny this reality is to deny freewill itself, which simply is impossible to prove.
One cannot logically claim that “God’s foreknowledge” in anyway determines, effects or causes one to do “such and such.” Indeep not even satan has tghe power to effect ones freewill. Satan gains acess and at times control through our emotions!
Friend you are not properly applying your mind and intellect, which like your freewill are too Spiritual Gifts from God, as God planed for you to use them. Your position lacks merit and logic.
Love and prayers,
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