Free will? I dont think so

[J.r.r.chesterlewis]

like I said earlier, would there be any acceptable circumstance for buying and selling another human being, or is it subjective? it is not an absolute moral truth that killing is wrong (protecting the innocent for example, is a noble thing, even if the death of the attacker is an unwanted side-effect). it is an absolute objective truth that murder is wrong, as there are no grounds for murdering someone. the problem is that moral relativism is used often to excuse guilt (if it isn’t wrong for me, then I can do it, even if I feel bad). in each and every different possible circumstance, there is a moral right and a moral wrong. it is right to take drugs if it saves your life, but never for pleasure.

 

[J.r.r.chesterlewis]

people who steal aren’t called “unsocial” they’re generally called criminals. but if that is how societies formed, then does that mean it’s moral- not unsocial, but moral- to kill on a whim because such and such a person has different feelings from the rest of society?

 

[J.r.r.chesterlewis]

(I don’t believe that societies arose in that manner, but Heaven help us if they did!)

 

[Freddy]

(I don’t believe that societies arose in that manner, but Heaven help us if they did!)

You think that if societies form from like minded people who think that stealing and murdering is wrong and treat others as they would like to be treated it’s a bad thing?

Either you have very odd ideas on what should constitute a good society or you are not reading what I am writing.

 

[Freddy]

people who steal aren’t called “unsocial” they’re generally called criminals. but if that is how societies formed, then does that mean it’s moral- not unsocial, but moral- to kill on a whim because such and such a person has different feelings from the rest of society?

You are definitely not reading what I am writing. Why would those who have formed a society based on the golden rule think it moral to kill on a whim?

 

[Freddy]

like I said earlier, would there be any acceptable circumstance for buying and selling another human being, or is it subjective?

It’s subjective. There are acceptable circumstances. Maybe you don’t follow sport but there’s a lot of it that goes on in football for example. But maybe that’s not what you meant. Maybe you need to give me some conditions so I can make a decision on whether it’s right relative to those conditions.

See how it works?

 

[EndTimes]

laws of sorts are evidenced all throughout the universe including life forms with an exception

those humans with free will.

Although they have golden rule law within - they do not have to obey.

Most abhor murder. A society of murderers would implode at the speed of death

As would those who abhor laws…

• Fred thought it wrong to Fight
• Lew who killed Fred thought it Right.

_

 

[J.r.r.chesterlewis]

no. if slavery is happening behind the NFL, then it is wrong. if you’re referring to the fact that some coaches are paid to switch members to other teams, then you’ve missed the point. the black slaves before the Civil War would be insulted if you are calling paid football players slaves. however, if you merely misunderstood what I was saying, then let me clarify. Slavery is objectively wrong. Football has nothing to do with that, unless there’s a huge slave regime under the noses of the spectators that I am unaware of.

 

[Freddy]

no. if slavery is happening behind the NFL, then it is wrong.

So if you give some conditions to the act and make it relative to said act (for example, forcing people against their will to be sold, not paying them a wage for the work they do, splitting up families and maltreating the people being sold), then yeah. I’d agree with you that it would be wrong.

But now we’ve described an act which is relative to the situations suggested. It is conditional to those situations. If you want to call that absolute then under what situations can we use the term ‘relative’? An example would be good.

 

[J.r.r.chesterlewis]

I think neither of those thing, I merely said that I don’t believe societies were formed in that way. so please, read what I am writing.

 

[J.r.r.chesterlewis]

for the sake of clarification, also, I said Heaven help us because if society was formed merely by like-minded people coming together, then what happens when the people all hold that murder is okay? if that is all that societies are founded upon, then it is a very unstable, volatile state to be in.

 

[TheTomist]

Freddy,
Your original statement from a few hours ago was that “truth is in the eye of the beholder”. Is that what you believe, or not? Cause you can keep setting up straw men to knock down, or you can stick with your opinion. You have slowly changed from “truth is in the eye of the beholder” to saying that under certain conditions, slavery is ok. And all this going based on idea that slavery and football have something in common. Well, you could apply that “logic” to anything, minimizing everything to breathing. Every act has the common feature of breathing, or living. Where are you going to say that your “logic” doesn’t apply anymore? Some of what you are saying NOW I would agree with, which only brings me to the conclusion that you don’t know what you are talking about when you say “subjective morals”. It’s either that, or you haven’t made up your mind what you believe.

 

[Freddy]

I think neither of those thing, I merely said that I don’t believe societies were formed in that way. so please, read what I am writing.

You said ‘heaven help us if they did’. Sounds to me like you weren’t impressed. But the way that it happened - following the golden rule, was exactly the rule which Jesus reminded us to follow.

 

[VanitasVanitatum]

You said ‘heaven help us if they did’. Sounds to me like you weren’t impressed. But the way that it happened - following the golden rule, was exactly the rule which Jesus reminded us to follow.

They could if they wanted to follow it but that is one of many possibilities.

 

[Freddy]

Freddy,
Your original statement from a few hours ago was that “truth is in the eye of the beholder”. Is that what you believe, or not?

Don’t think that was me.

But as we’ve agreed that acts such as selling people can be morally wrong under certain circumstances and you want to then describe that as an absolute moral rule, then under what circumstances can we use the term ‘relative’?

Just one example would be ok.

 

[Freddy]

Freddy:

You said ‘heaven help us if they did’. Sounds to me like you weren’t impressed. But the way that it happened - following the golden rule, was exactly the rule which Jesus reminded us to follow.

They could if they wanted to follow it but that is one of many possibilities.

Yeah. Every Man For Himself might have been one. Maybe you have another suggestion that excludes any use of the golden rule.

 

[J.r.r.chesterlewis]

your original statement was that morality is subjective, therefore the golden rule is subjective. I am unimpressed by the idea that our relationships are founded merely on our feelings, and that we follow the golden rule because we feel like it, not because it’s right. a society founded on like-mindedness only lasts while the members are like-minded.

 

[Freddy]

for the sake of clarification, also, I said Heaven help us because if society was formed merely by like-minded people coming together, then what happens when the people all hold that murder is okay? if that is all that societies are founded upon, then it is a very unstable, volatile state to be in.

You have to read what I’m saying. The people forming societies thought that living by the golden rule was a good thing. That murder was a bad thing. Societies don’t form out of groups of individuals who think that there’s nothing wrong with murdering on a whim.

 

[Freddy]

your original statement was that morality is subjective, therefore the golden rule is subjective. I am unimpressed by the idea that our relationships are founded merely on our feelings, and that we follow the golden rule because we feel like it, not because it’s right. a society founded on like-mindedness only lasts while the members are like-minded.

We don’t follow it because we feel it’s a good idea. Jesus didn’t say ‘Hey, if you think this is ok, then why not give it a go’. We follow it because it works. Do you want your neighbour stealing your property? Then don’t steal his.

 

[TheTomist]

Freddy,
We do not follow it because it ‘works’. Christ didn’t say “Hey, I have a great idea, and I think it will work! Let’s try it out!”. He told us to do it out of love of Him