You’re missing the gating criterion. Our first ancestor who didn’t have rationality (not “less than a dog”, just “not rational”) wasn’t ensouled and therefore not human.
Yep. I think the reasonable explanation is that, when Genesis says that God created Adam from pre-existing matter, then that pre-existing matter was a previously-unensouled hominin.
Then there’s no point in continuing the discussion.Freddy:
Yep. I think the reasonable explanation is that, when Genesis says that God created Adam from pre-existing matter, then that pre-existing matter was a previously-unensouled hominin.
Not seeing how you reach that conclusion, but … whatever.
Not vexed. It’s just that there is nowhere to go. I could give you what I consider to be evidence that rationality is an evolved feature and propose this and suggest that but you have faith in that God did it in one generation.Freddy:
Not seeing how you reach that conclusion, but … whatever.
Is your problem that I’m not a Scriptural literalist-fundamentalist? Or that I believe God created humanity, as such?
Oh, wait… your problem is that I assent to the idea that, since Man is specially created by God – in His “image and likeness”, with rationality and intellect – that therefore animals do not. You’re vexed that I’m a “speciesist”, eh?
Yep. I get it.
No problem with yec. But you think rationality happened, to all intents, instantly. And I don’t know anything in nature that has happened instantly. It’s all an incredibly slow and cumulative process. So I have no evidence that rationality wasn’t there one day and suddenly appeared the next.Freddy:
Yep. I get it.
Just to be clear: this position I’m espousing is not YEC. (I don’t think that you’re suggesting it is, but … just for the sake of argument, I wanted to make sure I put it out there.)
It took me a while to see the pun. Well done.
Nor have you in any shape manner or form - provided even mere evidences of no Free Will.
That understandable yet false notion has been thoroughly debunked.
Of course you can. Knowing does not and never did include forcing.
Only Christians who do not understand that God doesn’t “know the future”, but knows everything that has or will happen (from our perspective) in His eternal now (no past, no future, just now). We decide, we act, He knows; it’s just that His knowing is not bound by our time.
First of all, I vehemently dispute this statement. Someone else’s knowledge of what will transpire in no way stops me from making decisions and acting on them, hence I have free will. Now on to the rest:
Which theologians? Don’t need a complete list, five will do.
jan10000,
To be fair, that’s the thesis of evolution, right? It’s a gradual change, but the idea is that, at some point, we can point and say “this species” rather than “that species.” Can we do that with any practical certainty? Of course not. Yet, that’s the idea – there’s a point on the continuum where we can say “this thing” and not “that thing.” Rationality is merely one of these things we’d want to be able to talk about; and, if we define “human” – as opposed to “hominin” – along those lines, then we want to be able to do precisely this kind of thing!
Agreed. It’s a process. And yet, if we’re going to provide definitions of various “species”, then we really are drawing a bright line between ‘predecessor’ and ‘successor’ species!
Indeed. Yet, the presence of evidence in your hands is not the determining factor of whether it’s true… right? It might be the standard by which you, personally, decide to assent… but that’s a different story altogether!
Let me help you out, here: it absolutely is the position that I’m staking out! And, yes – this means that there’s no objective evidence that I can present to prove it or that you can present to disprove it. Now, that might mean to some that it’s an unsupportable thesis… but I think that’s incorrect. It’s an empirically unprovable thesis, but that’s not the same thing as an unsupportable thesis. Those who equivocate the two make an error of category.
So… how might you hope to be able to point to a person, as the first in a species, and say “HIM!” or even better yet “HIM! And not this one before him!”
Two thoughts:
I think that the burden of proof would lie on those who assert that other animals possess rationality, don’t you? If we can get to that point – which requires us first to decide on what “rationality” actually means! – then we might move towards your ‘evolved rationality’ claims!
God does not “allow” “Hell” to exist. Your question shows that you did not pay attention to what I said. Hell is a place, or state (call it what you will, I will reply to that in a moment), WITHOUT God, as a result of the choice of Satan(who is most certainly real) to abandon God, and choose to worship himself instead.
As for this, well, I will start by acknowledging that “simply” was a poor word choice. Let me clarify. I don’t know how deep your understanding of the supernatural goes, so I will just go on the assumption that we agree on certain basic ideals. Satin rejected God, and chose not to serve. As a spiritual being, outside of time, he lives in his decision. Once he made his decision to reject God, that was it. So, naturally, he could not stay in the presence of God. Other angels as well chose to reject God. They too could not stay in his presence. I will say now, I have NO IDEA what Hell will be like. Whether or not it is a place of physical pain, or spiritual pain, or whatever other conceptions of it one may have, we DO know that it is a place apart from God. When we choose to go away from God, of course we are no longer with him. It is a natural effect. Satan is still present, along with the other fallen angels, and they long to “bring souls” to ruin and destruction through temptation, not for the sake of company, or because they want companionship while enduring the hardships of Hell. It is out of envy and disgust that they tempt us. Because we have time. Time to choose good. And that is itself the definition of Free Will: the ability to do good, for the sake of doing so, and because we love God. We cannot be forced to love. Otherwise it is not true love. And if we do not truly love God, we cannot truly want to give ourselves to him for eternity.
And with regard to salvation, you need to first come to understanding of the teachings of the Church, the love, mercy, AND justice of God. Any who truly seeks for the Truth will find it, just as Christ said. “Seek, and ye shall find”. Of course, not all have the knowledge of Christianity and Divine Revelation, but that is why God created Natural Law, otherwise known as a conscience. If one follows what he knows to be right, in the pursuit of Truth, he can indeed hope for his Salvation.