Free will? I dont think so

[Gorgias]

NO.
ETERNITY encompasses ALL TIME…
Your argument vanished in a nano-second …
Thus spake me correctly - with my Free Will …

Except that… it doesn’t. Time – that is, the temporal framework – isn’t a feature of eternity. It’s a feature of the universe. So, the universe itself (and all its features) are contained “within” eternity, so to speak. However, time doesn’t “bleed out” into eternity.

So, your free will is intact… even if you spake not well.

But the question I have is…can God exist absent the existence of time?

Absolutely! What is it about God that requires a pre-existent framework? In fact, if there were a pre-existent framework, inside of which God existed, then our definition of God would fail, on all sorts of counts!

For it to be true that God exists outside of time, still requires the existence of time.

If the universe hadn’t been created, there would have been no temporal dimension. That wouldn’t constrain God, though. He would exist. Period.

Transcending all of time, and existing in the absence of time are two different things.

Quite.

And God transcends it because He transcends the universe.

And it could be argued that anything for which its temporal duration is zero, doesn’t exist. In which case God is still dependent upon the existence of time, even if He’s “ outside ” of time.

No. God’s “temporal duration” isn’t zero. More properly, you would say that it’s undefined.

 

[whatistrue]

God necessarily manifests within time in order to interact with his creation.

Manifest and exist are different things.

“eternity” meaningful as your using it

Incorrect. The way I am using it makes the notion of duration irrelevant if not downright ludicrous.

 

[Gorgias]

Wouldn’t it be more accurate to say that time holds its existence within God since nothing exists separately from God?

That’s fair.

Still, though, it means that God isn’t constrained by any temporal framework, which seems to have been the direction that the question was going, here…

Either the thing would need to have self existence apart from God

…which is the big problem with suggesting that God is beholden to a temporal framework – it creates a dynamic in which God is not the creator of all aspects of reality (and therefore, not omnipotent).

It seems to me here that the word “eternity” is a measurement of duration.

I would suggest that ‘eternity’ signifies no duration.

 

[EndTimes]

Except that… it doesn’t.

You say that often and yet you’ve never shown that… because you can not?

So… Until then, It shall remain YUN aka your unsubstantiated notion.

Jesus Son of God - who with the God created Creation - including Time

• Ascended back to His Father in Heaven … about 33 A.D. Yes?

 

[Gorgias]

You say that often and yet you’ve never shown that… because you can not?

So… Until then, It shall remain YUN aka your unsubstantiated notion.

Umm… and you’ve substantiated your position?

Jesus Son of God - who with the God created Creation - including Time

• Ascended back to His Father in Heaven … about 33 A.D. Yes?

That’s a different question. Here, you’re talking about the Incarnate Son of God.

Yes, Jesus was born in the world (and therefore, within time). No, the Second Person of God is not within time, as such.

Yes, Jesus ascended into heaven in the 1st century A.D. However, it’s not like He’s been in eternity for “20 centuries”. He simply is, now. In eternity. Not subject to time.

 

[phil3]

cutting and pasting doesnt help to drive a discussion. Neither does placing words all in upper case.

 

[BT3241]

If its not fee will it certainly appears like it is , but then how would you really know? I don’t think we have the awareness to know if it is or not.

 

[Latin]

cutting and pasting doesnt help to drive a discussion. Neither does placing words all in upper case.

I only tried to help you Phil3, by presenting the teachings of the Catholic Church on the matter and also I stated my view on the subject.

As we are both Catholics, I felt the best way is, to present the teachings of our Church and my view on the two different free wills.

As the teachings of our Church offended you Phil3 I’m very sorry.

For me makes no difference the way someone presenting me the teachings of our beloved Church, I receive it with most respect and tanks-giving.

God bless

 

[EndTimes]

Umm… and you’ve substantiated your position?

Not so fast.

The onus has been upon you and You haven’t as yet substantiated your very own musings…

It’s a wrap!

 

[phil3]

As the teachings of our Church offended you Phil3 I’m very sorry.

Where did I say I was offended?

 

[Latin]

First, the view your post indicated that you are Phil3 offended.

Yet I NEVER put on two posts which are the same, ALWAYS DIFFERENT WITH DIFFERENT PARAGRAPH, even same paragraphs appear in different posts.
.
Second, you refused to answer the question that what do you mean Phil3 when you say free will, do you mean libertarian free will or aided free will?

Of course, if the above question is too hard for you please don’t answer it.

This is above a simple question, everyone can answer that.

When I say free will, I mean and I believe aided free will.

God bless

 

[phil3]

You really need to chill out. I believe in true free will. That God now the infinite decisions I will make in my life that will lead to me going to heaven or to hell. But until I die that out come is undetermined. Nothing you cut and pasted opposed that belief.

It not just that I believe this, this is still being debated among catholic theologians. So we here are in good company. But since you write in capital letter which means you are yelling at me in words, I am finished with this discussion.

 

[Latin]

Dogmas of the Catholic Church are not up to debate to anyone.

Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma by Ludwig Ott;

For every salutary act internal supernatural grace of God (gratia elevans) is absolutely necessary, (De fide dogma).

There is a supernatural intervention of God in the faculties of the soul, which precedes the free act of the will, (De fide dogma).

Fallen man cannot redeem himself, (De fide dogma).

Without the special help of God the justified cannot persevere to the end in justification, (De fide dogma).

.
The Catholic dogma
Catholic Encyclopedia The predestination of the elect explains.

"(1) Consequently, the whole future membership of heaven, down to its minutest details, with all the different measures of grace and the various degrees of happiness, has been irrevocably fixed from all eternity. Nor could it be otherwise. For if it were possible that a predestined individual should after all be cast into hell or that one not predestined should in the end reach heaven, then God would have been mistaken in his foreknowledge of future events; He would no longer be omniscient.

(2) The second quality of predestination, the definiteness of the number of the elet, follows naturally from the first. For if the eternal counsel ofGod regarding the predestined is unchangeable, then the number of the predestined must likewise be unchangeable and definite, subject neither to additions nor to cancellations. Anything indefinite in the number would eo ipso imply a lack of certitude in God’s knowledge and would destroy His omniscience. Furthermore, the very nature of omniscience demands that not only the abstract number of the elect, but also the individuals with their names."

.
CCCS 1990-1991; Justification is also our acceptance of God’s righteousness. In this gift, faith, hope, charity, and OBEDIENCE TO GOD’S WILL are given to us.
.
CCCS 1996-1998; This call to eternal life is supernatural, coming TOTALLY from God’s decision and surpassing ALL power of human intellect and will.

John 15:16; You did not chose Me, but I chose you.

Acts 13:48; … as many as were ordained to life everlasting, believed. – Not even one former unjust, idolaters, drunkards, etc. said no to God’s salvation.
.
God bless

 

[Gorgias]

Not so fast.

The onus has been upon you

Nice try. Let’s see who first brought up the topic of God’s existence vis-a-vis the temporal framework…

and since God isn’t bound by time,

God exists in Time too…

Yep. That’s what I thought. So… your assertion, and therefore your burden of proof. So… let’s see it!

It’s a wrap!

Yep. You have wrapped yourself up in knots, haven’t you?!?

 

[EndTimes]

wrapped yourself up in knots

yourself… you…

Did your puppetmaster compose that long string of illogical non-sense?

 

[Gorgias]

Did your puppetmaster compose that long string of illogical non-sense?

If you are unable to parse that sentence, I’m afraid there’s little hope for discussions with real content!

 

[EndTimes]

If you are unable to parse that sentence

If you’re unable to understand that sentence - then you should exercise more of your free will.

 

[Gorgias]

If you’re unable to understand that sentence - then you should exercise more of your free will.

I think I will! Have a lovely day, EndTimes; my attempt to have a reasonable conversation with you is concluded!

 

[EndTimes]

I think I will! Have a lovely day, EndTimes; my attempt to have a reasonable conversation with you is concluded!

Did your free will say that?

 

[Gorgias]

Did your free will say that?