Free will? I dont think so

[EndTimes]

Izzat how you’re enjoying your lovely day

To the OP…

Free will is a self-evident part of human nature…

 

[whatistrue]

express his existence within this creation by manifesting something in that creation.

Which does not require God Himself to exist inside time.

Does this make sense?

Not to me, but that may be a failing on my part. Looking back, I now think that I erred in describing time as existing inside God - this could be interpreted to mean God has parts, which He does not. The main idea I try to keep in mind when people talk about temporal concepts with relation to God is that they simply don’t apply in any way to Him, other than the fact that He created time as part of our Universe.

the word still demands explaining since it itself imparts no information about what the state of being outside of time would be like

We are not equipped to understand what existence outside time is like. We can only refer to it in terms we do understand, and that usually in a negative sense (e.g. “not bound”, “no duration”, etc.), so we really can’t truly understand or explain it in terms of our own experience.

 

[PolycarpOfSmyrna]

If I may add my two cents to this discussion, I believe most catholics, albeit not conciously, understand predestination not in the Thomist sense, but with the lens of the Molinist theory. Molinism states that God knows every choice one could make in every possible situation. What God does, then, is choosing situations humans will be inserted in, but he still lets humans make a decision, albeit He knows every single decision. This basically means God knows conterfactuals. For example: “if I were in Rio de Janeiro, I would go swim by the sea instead of sunbathing”". Well, I’m not in Rio de Janeiro, and maybe I will never be, but if I were, God would know wether I would swim or sunbath. A Scriptural example of conterfactuals is Matthews 11:23. Anyway, the matter of predestination is actually still up to debate.

But let’s talk about free will, people tend to have a very weird idea of what it is really about. The thing is, free will is not really about doing whatever you want. Take for example a dog in the heat. Well, being this dog in the heat, if she crosses by a male dog and has the opportunity, she will have sex with it 100% of times. Its endocrine and neurological systems make sure that the female dogs complies to her instincts every single time. And this goes the same way for the male dog, of course. Now, let’s say you have a girlfriend or a boyfriend. You guys are kissing and all that but, suddenly, you feel the very strong urge to have sex with your partner. Well, if you are a good catholic youngster that attends the mass every sunday, you will think about it, take a deep breath and refrain from commiting sin. See the difference? The dogs have no choice. They are creatures of God, but they cannot opt not to follow their instincts. They eat as they feel hunger, drink as they feel thirsty, have sex as they feel horny, attack as they feel they can win, run away as they feel they can die. We, humans, on the other hand, have been blessed by God with the skill to make choices deliberatively. We can overcome our primal instincts and opt not to commit sin. This way we are not slaves of sin or, as the Scriptures frequentely depicts it, slaves of the flesh. And it makes sense, right? Sin may lead to vice. Vice means you don’t have full control of yourself and, day by day, you resemble more and more an irrational animal. But then again, my point is: you have free will. You can ponder the effect of your actions. We wouldn’t think about what we are doing if it didn’t matter, that is common sense. But remember this: free will is a gift that actually allows to create a relationship with God. It allows you to overcome sin and acquire a superior state of existence to yourself.

 

[Gorgias]

Could you give an example of in what way a temporal framework doesn’t constrain God?

His knowledge doesn’t depend on sensory experience that is limited by time. (We, on the other hand, are forced to observe, and those observations are made serially and in time.)

His existence isn’t within the temporal framework, but transcends it. (That is, God doesn’t have a ‘birthday’, and doesn’t have an ‘age’, and doesn’t get old.) More to the point, in a philosophical context, it means that God is immutable – He doesn’t change, and since time is the measure of change, God is outside of time.

And yet the apparent attempts to “fix” this big problem with other problems doesn’t remove the problem it only creates more problems to be fixed.

Nah. The ‘fix’ is to abandon the assertions which give rise to contradiction and paradox.

No duration is still a measurement of duration

Certainly not! It is a statement that means that duration does not apply!

How can the “effect” which is creation come after the “cause” which is God if no duration has taken place between Gods eternal existence and creations coming into existence within that eternity.

You’re talking about temporal priority, but that doesn’t apply in this case. God’s creation of the universe is metaphysically prior to existence of the universe, but there’s no temporal duration there to speak of.

Even the phrase…coming into existence wouldn’t mean anything since existing and not existing would have no duration between the two states in eternity.

It does, because your mistake here is faulty extrapolation: you’re applying terms which are appropriate inside a temporal framework, and you’re attempting to shoehorn them into a context outside a temporal framework.

 

[Gorgias]

Molinism states that God knows every choice one could make in every possible situation. … This basically means God knows conterfactuals.

Molinism goes well beyond that, though, and as you say, includes counterfactuals. If you do not have a granddaughter, then you cannot make a choice to buy her a pink dress or a yellow dress. Molinism asserts that God knows what you would have chosen, if you had a granddaughter.

The thing is, free will is not really about doing whatever you want. Take for example a dog in the heat.

Umm… not sure this is a good example. Dogs don’t have rationality, so they don’t make decisions in the way humans do. By definition, since they are not rational, they do not have free will. (They make choices, mind you, but that’s a totally different concept.)

Now, let’s say you have a girlfriend or a boyfriend. You guys are kissing and all that but, suddenly, you feel the very strong urge to have sex with your partner. Well, if you are a good catholic youngster that attends the mass every sunday, you will think about it, take a deep breath and refrain from commiting sin. See the difference?

Yes. You’re human, so you think and decide rationally. Dogs don’t. (Well… teenagers don’t, either, but that’s a different story… )

But then again, my point is: you have free will. You can ponder the effect of your actions.

This is a description of rationality, not of free will.

How can you literally be “inside” time?

You exist in the universe. The universe has a temporo-spatial framework. You are, very literally, within that framework.

If God willed time to have purpose in creation God is bound by that purpose since it is his will and God cannot contradict his own will.

Nope. God isn’t “bound” by His will.

 

[Gorgias]

you’re comparing Gods unlimited experience of time to mans limited experience. In both cases the process is the same, God simply experiences time all at once

No. That’s not at all what I’m doing. I’m saying that there’s no comparison whatsoever, because God doesn’t ‘experience’ things – He simply knows!

So, it’s not a comparison of two different types of experience – it’s the distinction between knowledge through experience and divine knowledge itself!

in his experience of time God is still bound by the purpose he willed time to serve.

Again, no: God doesn’t “experience time”. Nor is He “bound by [His] purposes.” (That’s the “can God create a rock so heavy that He can’t lift it” fallacy.)

So God is bound by the linearity of the “progression” of time in the sense that if an event as judged from our current perspective has taken place in our past God cannot contrary to his will for the purpose of time make that event happen in our future or present instead or else it will have or would instead of having happened in our past.

Wait. You’ve just gone somewhere completely off tangent! I think what you’re trying to say is that “if we have experienced an event, God cannot change the event that was already experienced.” I’m not sure I agree. However, I think I agree that He won’t. That isn’t a constraint; God doesn’t sit there and say “oops! I just painted my omnipotence into a corner now, didn’t I?!?”

Yeah…this immutable thing cannot be made to be comprehensible

Says who?

Creation had a beginning according to scripture. God preexisted creation.

Be careful… you’re still outside of the temporal framework, here…

Therefore the addition of creation to existence within God changes his so called eternally immutable condition

Nope. Because, yet again, you’re presuming a linear sequence of events – that is, a temporal sequence! That’s not the case.

and then there is of course the question of the son in the Godhead who became the sacrificial son on earth which indicates a change of state as well

Nope. God, the divine being, did not change by virtue of the incarnation of Christ.

Whatever you say you cannot get away from the fact that the son as Jesus on earth is not the same as the eternal son in the Godhead.

Actually, Jesus is one person with two natures, so yeah, I can say precisely what you suggest I cannot.

 

[Gorgias]

How do you get away from the fact that God went from his initial condition of not sustaining creation to sustaining creation in existence?

Because I’m not making the mistake of seeing it as a linear sequence, as if it were something like:

time without            -------->      time with 
the existence           -------->      the existence 
of creation             -------->      of creation

Of course you could just sweep this under the proverbial rug by using a bunch of vaguely defined and unprovably esoteric verbiage.

No less “vaguely defined” or “unprovably esoteric” than what you just used in an attempt to deny it.

That’s my point!

You shouldn’t abandon contradiction and paradox just to replace it with more contradiction and paradox. Nothing is gained.

My point is that you no longer have ‘contradiction’ and ‘paradox’ when you remove the assertions you championed.

I was thinking you meant no duration had passed. That is the measure I was referring to.

OK. Got it. No, I’m not talking about duration with value zero; I’m talking about duration as NULL.

Ah…there it is. There would be no temporal anything and yet you still use the phrase “prior to existence of the universe " which is a temporal reference. How can you say prior to if there is no duration between the two to speak of?

Because I’m making it plain that the priority that I’m speaking of is metaphysical, not temporal. It’s not a temporal reference.

I am not the one that originated the idea that God is the prime mover of an infinite regress of cause and effect

Umm… neither are we. The whole point is that it’s not an infinite regress.

How are you literally inside a measurement?

You’re not. You’re inside a framework in which measurements of existing physical entities can be made.

One might even say God IS his will. What is your counter argument

Actually, “God is His will” is the correct way to express it. Kudos!

 

[EndTimes]

If I may add my two cents to this discussion, I believe most catholics, albeit not conciously, understand predestination not in the Thomist sense, but with the lens of the Molinist theory. Molinism states that God knows every choice one could make in every possible situation. What God does, then, is choosing situations humans will be inserted in, but he still lets humans make a decision, albeit He knows every single decision.

Catholics - most? Never think about “predestination” and its endless unsettled debates.

Your B does not auto-follow your A

One can know some future events in a roughish yet valid manner - without having had any (name removed by moderator)ut…

One notices a baseball batted into the air - and one has a reasonable notion of Where it’s heading to.

Our Focus in our Present
remains upon our (Free Will - which isn’t thought about either) Obedience to God’s Command

 

[Retman]

God knows what I do in the future, not specifically before I do it but because God is seeing me do it, for He is outside of time.That He is in the future, present and past in no way forces my choice.
The argument of I give my dog chicken tomorrow therefore it doesn’t matter what I give him today is ridiculous.

 

[Fauken]

The argument of I give my dog chicken tomorrow therefore it doesn’t matter what I give him today is ridiculous.

And wasn’t my argument either. I never said anything about giving my dog chicken tomorrow. I said it in the present tense. If I give him chicken, knowing that he’ll eat it, and he eats it, that does not mean I robbed him of his free will. Because:

Knowledge regarding someone’s actions does not affect the act itself.

 

[EndTimes]

He is outside of time.

He sees the Future… Ergo He sees All Time.

 

[Retman]

jan1000
When only God existed, the concept of Time was meaningless because God is unchanging, eternal. At the creation of the physical realm, we have change. Time is change. We are not as we were years ago.

We cannot perceive action without time.

We cannot perceive God acting outside of time. Maybe this physical realm, from creation to the end of it all, lasts but an instant to God. Maybe God is enjoying some of us in heaven as I type this, relative to Him of course, not us. While some of us are in hell. We complain why hell lasts forever, because there is no time in the spiritual realm. All this said, it has nothing to do about predestination. What happens tomorrow depends on what we do today. Even though it’s set in stone. We are the stone cutters.

 

[EndTimes]

How does that resolve the issue of people not having free will?

People have Free Will.

 

[Gorgias]

Yeah, yeah…God knows in his infinite fashion and we know in our finite fashion.

No, I think it goes beyond that. Angels are purely spirit, just as God is purely spirit, but that “spiritual nature” doesn’t dictate how they know things. Angels have “infused knowledge”, and beyond that, they only know by virtue of any observation / experience which God permits of them. Still, though, God’s knowledge is different, and is neither ‘infused’ nor ‘experiential’.

Let us leave off for now in what way “God may experience” time - since this may be a mere semantic discrepancy between us - and use “God knowing time” instead.

Fair enough.

I absolutely believe God is “bound” by his “purposes”. Unless you believe that God can contradict himself?

That’s where it may be a semantic issue between us. That God’s nature is His nature (period, full stop!) does mean that He does not contradict His own nature… but I wouldn’t take that to mean that He is bound by it. Semantics? Perhaps.

One minute its said man cannot comprehend God and the next your implying we got his nature all figured out and comprehended.

Umm… no, not really. To say “immutability makes sense” is not equivalent to “we’ve got [God’s] nature all figured out and comprehended.” Rather, it merely means that immutability makes sense in the context of God.

Yeah it is kinda hard to eliminate some reference to temporality isn’t it

Yeah. And I think that’s because we are immersed in a temporal framework from our conception, and no act or thought we ever exhibit is ever outside of it (while still a living, breathing human). So, we’re so steeped in temporality, that it becomes the default way (and maybe the only way) that a person can comprehend things.

 

[Gorgias]

If creation was created by God out of nothing and then sustained by that same God it makes no difference if you think I’m adding a temporal framework by adding something that came into existence after something else in duration, came into existence in a simultaneous fashion as something else, or change up the wording and say came into existence in a framework of no duration. If God created and then sustained his creation he went from not sustaining to sustaining which is change.

It actually does, and it’s kinda funny because you start with the premise that includes a non-temporal context… and then you finish with a conclusion that presumes temporal context.

God didn’t “go from not sustaining to sustaining”, which is how you attempt to prove ‘change’. Now, here’s the thing that I’m afraid is going to bend your mind: if the ‘temporal framework’ of the universe is internal to the universe, and there’s not one that’s external to it… then that means that there’s no temporal priority between God and the universe. Internally to itself? The universe had a beginning in time. Externally, and with respect to eternity and God? No beginning in time.

Therefore, there’s a metaphysical priority with respect to God and the universe, but not a temporal priority. Therefore, we cannot say (in a way that implies temporal ordering) “God without universe followed by God with universe.” It just doesn’t work.

We are not looking at the event temporally, we are looking at the event in a purely metaphysically causal light.

Let’s do that, then: God is pure act. Therefore, His act is eternal. So, there is no “before the act” or “after the act”. The act merely is. Therefore, from a metaphysical standpoint, He never ‘moves’ from potency to act, which means there is never a state of “not having acted”, which is what you need in order to uphold your claim.

Pretty trippy, no?

I don’t think your realizing I’m not either. I’m seeing it as something like this:
God --------------> God sustaining creation which includes time

You’re still saying ‘change’, which I’m saying isn’t possible. I’m saying that the classical view is:

God as pure act.

That’s it! Nothing else! No ‘arrows’ at all!

 

[Gorgias]

Yeah, here we go with the verbiage.

LOL! We may have to punt on this line of thought at the moment, although it’s a good one to discuss. Perhaps later or in a different context?

Are you saying that metaphysically speaking it makes just as much sense to say that everything existed simultaneously?

‘Simultaneity’ is still a temporal concept. Metaphysically speaking, then, we’re talking outside of frameworks of time.

You cannot reference God as ever being unique in his existence if you cannot have some semblance of before and after which are temporal terms.

If you say so. I disagree.

Well, makes sense to say so did everything else since no temporal conditions apply.

It absolutely does!

Just make sure you’re talking about it in the context of ‘eternity’, and you’re all good! Once you start talking about it internally – in a frame of reference that includes temporality – you can’t make that claim any longer: with respect to itself, it does have a duration!

Well God created out of nothing. Did he?

Yes. The problem here is you’re going to want to go all ‘temporal’ and ‘sequential’, such that you can say “a-ha! There’s the point ‘without’, and there’s the point ‘with’! Gotcha!” And then I’m gonna hafta reply, “nope: it’s not temporal. But, what it is, is the Will of God, operating eternally in a single consistent Act, in which no pre-existing matter becomes the universe.”

How can you say this since there is no temporal frame to reference in which you can say God existed but creation did not and therefore both didn’t always exist together?

I do it by asserting “God is metaphysically prior to the universe.”

Yes and my point here is that time is a measurement of our awareness. It is not an existent thing apart from our perception of it.

Of course not. This is the “if a tree falls in the forest and no one is there to see it, does it make a sound?” nonsense! You’d just amend it to say “does it take time to fall?” Of course it does!!!

 

[Latin]

We are the stone cutters.

Please Retman consider, you are the best Architect and decided to build the greatest building.

You designed the building, you designed every event down to its minutest details which need to take place to complete your building.

You give your builders the building design, which contains every event down to its minutest details.

You causes every event/ act, which events/ acts tailor made to each of your builders to complete the building.

You and your building design creates/causes the builders their AIDED FREE WILL/ by your building design DETERMINED FREE WILL.

If you would give your builders Libertarian free will to act according to their whim, instead of your building they would build the Tower of Babel.

Your builders cutting the stones according to your Designed, Decreed and Foreordained plan.

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IN THE SAME WAY WE ARE GOD’S BUILDERS

God designed the universe includes this world, He Designed, Decreed, Foreordained and He causes every event/ act according to His design down to its minutest details which need to take place to complete His creation.

Without even knowing, we are God’s builders, every act we perform, Designed, Decreed, Foreordained by God from all eternity and He causes us to do in order to complete the work of creation.

God’s creation is STILL IN PROGRESS and we are all God’s builders/ stone cutters, cutting the stones according to God’s decreed and preordained building design.
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CCC 308 The truth that God is at work in all the actions of his creatures is inseparable from faith in God the Creator.
God is the first cause who operates in and through secondary causes:
"For God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
Far from diminishing the creature’s dignity, this truth enhances it.

CCC 307 God thus enables men to be intelligent and free, causes in order to complete the work of creation, … Though often unconscious collaborators with God’s will, they can also enter deliberately into the divine plan by their actions. – By AIDED FREE WILL as follows.

CCC 2022; The divine initiative (supernatural intervention of God in the faculties of the soul) in the work of grace precedes, prepares, and elicits the free response of man.

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CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA Divine Providence explains.

“His wisdom He so orders all events within the universe that the end for which it was created may be realized.
God preserves the universe in being; He acts in and with every creature in each and all its activities.”

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CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Free Will explains;

“God is the author of all causes and effects. God’s omnipotent providence exercises a complete and perfect control over all events that happen, or will happen, in the universe.”
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St. Thomas teaches that all movements of will and choice must be traced to the divine will: and not to any other cause, because Gad alone is the cause of our willing and choosing. CG, 3.91.
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With libertarian free will we would build the Tower of Babel.
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God bless

 

[Retman]

And we did build just that.

 

[Latin]

God showed us, with libertarian free will we can build only the Tower of Babel.

God made all of us His builders and with aided free will, we all working on to complete the work of His creation.

CCC 307 God thus enables men to be intelligent and free, causes in order to complete the work of creation, … Though often unconscious collaborators with God’s will, they can also enter deliberately into the divine plan by their actions. – By AIDED FREE WILL as follows.

Aquinas said, "God changes the will without forcing it. But he can change the will from the fact that he himself operates in the will as he does in nature,” De Veritatis 22:9. 31. ST I-II:112:3. 32. Gaudium et Spes 22; "being …
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Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma by Ludwig Ott;

For every salutary act internal supernatural grace of God (gratia elevans) is absolutely necessary, (De fide dogma).

There is a supernatural intervention of God in the faculties of the soul, which precedes the free act of the will, (De fide dogma).
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St. Augustine on Grace and Predestination

De gratia et libero arbitrio 16, 32: "It is certain that we will when we will; but He brings it about that we will good … . It is certain that we act when we act, but He brings it about that we act , providing most effective powers to the will."
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CCC 2022; The divine initiative (supernatural intervention of God in the faculties of the soul) in the work of grace precedes, prepares, and elicits the free response of man.

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THIS IS AS FOLLOWS WE COULD DO WITH LIBERTARIAN FREE WILL

The Council of Sens (1140) condemned the idea that free will is sufficient in itself for any good. Donez., 373.

Council of Orange (529)
In canon 20, entitled that Without God Man Can Do No Good. . . Denz., 193; quoting St. Prosper.

In canon 22, says, “No one has anything of his own except lying and sin. Denz., 194; quoting St. Prosper.

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CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA Divine Providence explains;

Life everlasting promised to us, (Romans 5:21); but unaided we can do nothing to gain it (Rom.7:18-24).
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Without the special help of God the justified cannot persevere to the end in justification, (De fide dogma).

It is God’s responsibility TO KEEP US SAVED by His gift of Final Perseverance, which is an INFALLIBLE PROTECTION of the salvation of every receiver, there is no salvation without it. – Infallible teachings of the Trent.

“Trent’s Decree of Justification, canon 16, speaks of “that great and special gift of final perseverance,” and chapter 13 of the decree speaks of “the gift of perseverance of which it is written: ‘He who perseveres to the end shall be saved Matt.10:22, 24:13, which cannot be obtained from anyone except from him who is able to make him who stands to stand Rom.14:4.”
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CCC 2016 The children of our holy mother the Church rightly hope for the grace of final perseverance.
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So, who is responsible for our (His builders) salvation?!?
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God bless

 

[Freddy]

Yes. You’re human, so you think and decide rationally. Dogs don’t. (Well… teenagers don’t, either, but that’s a different story…

So your father was rational. As was his father. And his… etc etc. Back go the point where you had less rationalty then than a dog does now. Is your explanation for that somehow connnected fo Genesis?