Free will? I dont think so

[Freddy]

Freddy:

Gee, this is difficult…

That’s because you’re making it difficult.

Well, it’s not an easy subject…although it appears to be straightforward. But I think we’re going to end up repeating ourselves. At least I am…

Thanks for the (name removed by moderator)ut.

 

[srobi]

“two things are required in order to obtain eternal life:
the grace of God and man’s will.
He does not sanctify him without his co-operation”
St’ Thomas Aquinas

 

[phil3]

And your point is?

 

[Usagi]

I can accept that. God doesnt know and I have free will.

Well, God does know once you’ve decided. And since God isn’t bound by time, He “has always” known. But not because you are compelled to make a particular choice. Because you do, in fact, make one particular choice and not the other.

 

[EndTimes]

nd since God isn’t bound by time,

God exists in Time too…

 

[Gorgias]

Usagi:

nd since God isn’t bound by time,

God exists in Time too…

No. God is eternal and is outside of time.

Maybe you’re talking about Jesus, as the Incarnate Son of God? He was conceived, born, and lived within the context of a particular time and place. However, He now possesses his glorified body, and exists in eternity. As the Second Person of God, however, He is eternal, not time-bound.

 

[srobi]

if you’re referring to my quote from St. Thomas maybe you are
worrying too much about your will and not spending enough time
seeking graces that God is pleased with by trying to conform your will to His. t’is no easy task!!!

 

[EndTimes]

No. God is eternal and is outside of time.

Eternity is All TIME…

Anything else?

 

[phil3]

ok, but no i am not.

 

[phil3]

Often times, people who are questioning their faith are really struggling with something because they do not want to accept the truth, in my opinion.

I believe you hit the nail on the head when your wrote “in my opinion”. I am not questioning my faith, I am questioning that if God know the outcome of my soul before I am even created, then there is either no free will or no god.

But if I take my way of seeing God a all knowing, god knows the infinite number of decisions I will make. Only God can know infinity

 

[Latin]

… if God know the outcome of my soul before I am even created, then there is either no free will or no god.

Phil3, when you are speaking about free will, do you mean LIBERTARIAN FREE WILL or AIDED FREE WILL? The two are not the same.
.
LIBERTARIAN FREE WILL

Libertarian free will is basically the concept that, metaphysically and morally, man is an autonomous being, one who operates independently, not controlled by others or by outside forces.

.
AIDED FREE WILL

Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma by Ludwig Ott;

For every salutary act internal supernatural grace of God (gratia elevans) is absolutely necessary, (De fide dogma)

There is a supernatural intervention of God in the faculties of the soul, which precedes the free act of the will, (De fide dogma).

.
THE CHAIN OF CAUSALITY
The Mystery of Predestination by John Salza. (Hi is a Catholic apologist.)
Page 84. St. Thomas properly explains the chain of causality:

"It is to be observed that where there are several agents in order, the second always acts in virtue of the first: for the agent moves the second to act.

And thus all agents act in virtue of God Himself: and therefore He is the cause of action in every agent. ST, Pt I, Q 105, Art 5.

Because God is the cause of action in every agent, even man’s free will determination to do good comes from God."
.
CCC 308 The truth that God is at work in all the actions of his creatures is inseparable from faith in God the Creator.
God is the first cause who operates in and through secondary causes:
"For God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
Far from diminishing the creature’s dignity, this truth enhances it.
.
CCC 307 God thus enables men to be intelligent and free, causes in order to complete the work of creation, … Though often unconscious collaborators with God’s will, they can also enter deliberately into the divine plan by their actions. – By AIDED FREE WILL as follows.

CCC 2022; The divine initiative (supernatural intervention of God in the faculties of the soul) in the work of grace precedes, prepares, and elicits the free response of man.
.
St. Thomas teaches that all movements of will and choice must be traced to the divine will: and not to any other cause, because Gad alone is the cause of our willing and choosing. CG, 3.91.
.
As God himself operates in our wills, we are freely cooperating with His graces, without even knowing it.
.
We FREELY will what God wills us to will, and we FREELY do what God wills and causes us to do.
.
God bless

 

[Gorgias]

Eternity is All TIME…

Anything else?

Eternity is NO TIME.

It’s very literally, not temporal.

 

[lelinator]

Phil3, when you are speaking about free will, do you mean LIBERTARIAN FREE WILL or AIDED FREE WILL? The two are not the same.
.
LIBERTARIAN FREE WILL

Libertarian free will is basically the concept that, metaphysically and morally, man is an autonomous being, one who operates independently, not controlled by others or by outside forces.

.
AIDED FREE WILL

Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma by Ludwig Ott;

For every salutary act internal supernatural grace of God (gratia elevans) is absolutely necessary, ( De fide dogma )

There is a supernatural intervention of God in the faculties of the soul, which precedes the free act of the will, ( De fide dogma ).

.
THE CHAIN OF CAUSALITY
The Mystery of Predestination by John Salza. (Hi is a Catholic apologist.)
Page 84. St. Thomas properly explains the chain of causality:

"It is to be observed that where there are several agents in order, the second always acts in virtue of the first: for the agent moves the second to act.

And thus all agents act in virtue of God Himself: and therefore He is the cause of action in every agent. ST, Pt I, Q 105, Art 5.

Because God is the cause of action in every agent, even man’s free will determination to do good comes from God."
.
CCC 308 The truth that God is at work in all the actions of his creatures is inseparable from faith in God the Creator.
God is the first cause who operates in and through secondary causes:
"For God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
Far from diminishing the creature’s dignity, this truth enhances it.
.
CCC 307 God thus enables men to be intelligent and free, causes in order to complete the work of creation, … Though often unconscious collaborators with God’s will, they can also enter deliberately into the divine plan by their actions. – By AIDED FREE WILL as follows.

CCC 2022; The divine initiative (supernatural intervention of God in the faculties of the soul) in the work of grace precedes, prepares, and elicits the free response of man.
.
yadda, yadda, yadda…

You keep repeating the same thing over and over again, which can’t help but remind me of the old adage attributed to Einstein:

“Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result.”

Of course it also reminds me of Matt Damon’s character in “Good Will Hunting”

“You got that from Vickers, ‘Work in Essex County,’ page 98, right? Yeah, I read that too. Were you gonna plagiarize the whole thing for us? Do you have any thoughts of your own on this matter?”

Perhaps you should try giving us your own thoughts on the matter, rather than continually quoting the same text ad infinitum. Appeals to authority obviously aren’t working.

 

[po18guy]

Lacking free will, and being created by an immutable God, would we all not agree?

 

[lelinator]

Lacking free will, and being created by an immutable God, would we all not agree?

With or without free will, the only way for God to assure that all men would agree, would be for Him to give them omniscience. Since He didn’t, it would seem rather apparent that He doesn’t want us to agree.

Either that, or omniscience isn’t possible.

 

[EndTimes]

Eternity is NO TIME

NO.
ETERNITY encompasses ALL TIME…
Your argument vanished in a nano-second …
Thus spake me correctly - with my Free Will …

 

[whatistrue]

It seems to me here that the word “eternity” is a measurement of duration

No. Eternity in this context means not constrained by or existing within time. Time simply has no meaning or existence in Eternity.

 

[lelinator]

No. God is eternal and is outside of time.

But the question I have is…can God exist absent the existence of time?

For it to be true that God exists outside of time, still requires the existence of time.

But if there was no time at all, would God still exist?

Transcending all of time, and existing in the absence of time are two different things. And it could be argued that anything for which its temporal duration is zero, doesn’t exist. In which case God is still dependent upon the existence of time, even if He’s “outside” of time.

 

[whatistrue]

What word would you use then to define existing in time without beginning or end?

I wouldn’t try to say that.

What do you mean by “not constrained” within time?

I didn’t say that. If you reframe the sentence, it goes something like “not constrained by time or existing within time”.

how can you meaningfully say that God came before anything?

I don’t try to say “before” or “after” with respect to God.

There are other beings which presumably exist outside of time.

On what basis would one presume that?

God does have existence within time since there is nowhere that God is not? There is no “place” where time exists but God does not.

God does not exist within time, but one might say that time exists within God. I am not 100% sure about how that would play out philosophically.

If you define the term by referencing time then you’ve still tethered its meaning to a measurement of duration.

No. The only reference to time in what I said about Eternity is that time has no meaning or existence in relation to it. So how does that tether it to a duration?

 

[po18guy]

Ah, don’t limit yourself!