Free will? I dont think so

[Gorgias]

Gorgias:

Show me, then.

dictionary.com

sigh. When I read that site’s definition of “infallible”, I see:

Roman Catholic Church. immune from fallacy or liability to error in expounding matters of faith or morals by virtue of the promise made by Christ to the Church.

You were saying…?
AIng:

Did you read your own link?
Here’s what your link says:
"Evangelicals and Fundamentalists commonly say the Bible is infallible."

Did you read the article, yourself? The point is that they’re using the terms inaccurately… just as you are.

 

[AlNg]

They don’t say it’s infallible, either. They say it’s inerrant, just as I’m saying.

Can you show us where the article you have linked to says that Evangelicals and Fundamentalists do not say the Bible is infallible ? Here is the quote from your link in case you missed it:
"Evangelicals and Fundamentalists commonly say the Bible is infallible."

The point is that they’re using the terms inaccurately… :

You have not proven that Evangelicals and Fundamentalists are wrong when they use the term infallible to refer to the bible. It is an opinion on your part, nothing more.

Roman Catholic Church. immune from fallacy or liability to error in expounding matters of faith or morals by virtue of the promise made by Christ to the Church.

Please explain why you think it is necessary to apply this definition to the case when Evangelicals or Fundamentalists use the term and not the first definition given for infallible: Incapable of making mistakes or being wrong. Inerrant can mean the same thing: Incapable of being wrong.

 

[Duke12VonFalkenburg]

You are forgetting that God is beyond space and time. God’s sight and foreknowledge has no bearing on the decisions you make or the actions you take. Period. You are typing the words of your book yes. The end result is still yours and always will be. But you cannot surprise God.

 

[Latin]

“Evangelicals and Fundamentalists commonly say the Bible is infallible.”

There is one thing to say the Bible is infallible, but there is another thing is to understand what the Bible says, because the Bible is like an enigma, can be understand only if we see the Whole Picture.

.
ONLY A FEW PEOPLE SAVED

Matt.7:14; Narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it. etc.

.
GOD SAVES EVERYONE

Eph.1:10-11; As a plan for the fullness of time, to units all things in Him, thing in heaven and the things on earth.
In Him, according to the purpose of Him who accomplishes all things according to the council of His will. etc.

.
When we reading the Scripture, we see in parallel there are two lines of teachings.

One line is only a few people saved, the other line is God saves everyone (Rom.5:18; Eph.1:10-11; Col.1:20; etc.).

According to the Dictionary.com. (Matt.7:14). = Only a few people saved.

According to the Dictionary.com. (Eph.1:10-11). = God saves everyone.

As we see above the Dictionary.com. is useless the decode the enigma of the Scripture.
.
The Scripture is like a coded message/ enigma, can be understand by God’s revelation.

.
In the Book of Jonah God also provided us His key to understand His enigma/ coded message.
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FIRST STAGE: GOD PROMISES HELL FOR EVERY MEMBER OF THE NINEVITES

Jonah 3:4; Jonah began by going a day’s journey into the city, proclaiming, forty more days and Nineveh will be overthrown.
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SECOND STAGE: GOD’S WORK ON TO SAVE ALL NINEVITES

CCCS 1990-1991; Justification is also our acceptance of God’s righteousness. In this gift, faith, hope, charity, and OBEDIENCE TO GOD’S WILL are given to us.
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CCCS 1996-1998; This call to eternal life is supernatural, coming TOTALLY from God’s decision and surpassing ALL power of human intellect and will.
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THIRD STAGE: AS DESCRIBED ABOVE GOD SAVED ALL NINEVITES – As described above, God can save everyone.

Jonah 4:11; And should I not have concern for the great city of Nineveh, in which there are more than a hundred and twenty thousand people who cannot tell their right hand from their left, and also many animals?
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John 15:16; You did not chose Me, but I chose you.

Acts 13:48; … as many as were ordained to life everlasting, believed. – Not even one former unjust, idolaters, drunkards, etc. said no to God’s salvation.

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As we see above, the Dictionary.com. is useful to show what an isolated Bible verse says, but it is totally useless to show us what an isolated Bible verse means in context of the whole Bible.
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Jonah 3:4 =/= Jonah 4:11, both doesn’t mean what the Dictionary.com. says to us.
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John 7:14 =/= Eph.10-11, both doesn’t mean what the Dictionary.com. says to us.
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God bless

 

[AlNg]

Acts 13:48; – Not even one former unjust, idolaters, drunkards, etc. said no to God’s salvation.

Can you explain this? My bible has something different:
for Acts 13: 48
[American Standard Version]
And as the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of God: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

[Douay-Rheims Bible]
And the Gentiles hearing it, were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to life everlasting, believed.

 

[Latin]

Latin:

Acts 13:48; – Not even one former unjust, idolaters, drunkards, etc. said no to God’s salvation.

Can you explain this? My bible has something different:
for Acts 13: 48
[American Standard Version]
And as the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of God: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

[Douay-Rheims Bible]
And the Gentiles hearing it, were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to life everlasting, believed.

That is above only an interpretation of Acts 13:48, to show if God wants to save a person, God saves him or her or anyone without any ifs or buts.

God bless

 

[AlNg]

if God wants to save a person, God saves him or her or anyone without any ifs or buts.

But does not God want to save everyone? Assuming that is true i.e. that God wants to save everyone, then your comment sounds something like universal salvation?

 

[Latin]

But does not God want to save everyone?

IN SHORT: AS FOLLOWS, THIS IS WHAT I BELIEVE.

OUR FATE/ DESTINY IS NOT IN US, IT IS IN GOD, HE IS THE AUTHOR AND THE DIRECTOR OF THE MOVIE OF OUR LIFE.

For Augustine says (De Civ. Dei v, 1) that the "Divine will or power is called fate. "
But the Divine will or power is not in creatures, but in God. Therefore fate is not in creatures but in God.
.
The Divine will is cause of all things that happen, as Augustine says (De Trin. iii, 1 seqq.). Therefore all things are subject to fate.

The same is true for events in our lives. Relative to us they often appear to be by chance.
But relative to God, who directs everything according to his divine plan, nothing occurs by chance.

Hence if this divine influence stopped, every operation would stop.
Every operation, therefore, of anything is traced back to Him as its cause. (Summa Contra Gentiles, Book III.)

.
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA Divine Providence explains.

Life everlasting promised to us, (Romans 5:21); but unaided we can do nothing to gain it (Rom.7:18-24).

This, the beneficent purpose of an all-seeing Providence, is wholly gratuitous, entirely unmerited (Romans 3:24; 9:11-2).

It extends to all men (Romans 2:10; 1 Timothy 2:4), even to the reprobate Jews (Romans 11:26 sq.); and by it all God’s dealings with man are regulated (Ephesians 1:11).

It extends to every individual, adapting itself to the needs of each (St. John Chrysostom, "Hom. xxviii).

All things are created and governed with a view to man, to the development of his life and his intelligence, and to the satisfaction of his needs (Aristides, “Apol.”, i, v).

His wisdom He so orders all events within the universe that the end for which it was created may be realized.

God preserves the universe in being; He acts in and with every creature in each and all its activities.

He directs all, even evil and sin itself, to the final end for which the universe was created.

Evil He converts into good (Genesis 1:20; cf. Psalm 90:10); and suffering He uses as an instrument whereby to train men up as a father traineth up his children (Deuteronomy 8:1-6;

Evil, therefore, ministers to God’s design (St. Gregory the Great, op. cit., VI, xxxii in P.L.

God is the sole ruler of the world. His will governs all things. He loves all men, desires the salvation of all, and His providence extends to all nation.

Again, from the fact that God has created the universe, it shows that He must also govern it; for just as the contrivances of man demand attention and guidance, so God, as a good workman, must care for His work.

That end is that all creatures should manifest the glory of God, and in particular that man should glorify Him, recognizing in nature the work of His hand, serving Him in obedience and love, and thereby attaining to the full development of his nature and to eternal happiness in God.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12510a.htm
.
God bless

 

[phil3]

no i didnt forget.

 

[lelinator]

IN SHORT: AS FOLLOWS, THIS IS WHAT I BELIEVE.

OUR FATE/ DESTINY IS NOT IN US, IT IS IN GOD, HE IS THE AUTHOR AND THE DIRECTOR OF THE MOVIE OF OUR LIFE.

…yadda, yadda, yadda…

So the really short answer would seem to be…yes…you believe in universal salvation.

Which, in spite of all the previous arguments about God being outside of time…when it comes to the most important decision that anyone will ever have to make…we don’t have free will.

Because absolutely everyone will make the exact same choice…and by design…they can’t possibly make any other choice. It’s not that God simply knows what you’ll choose, because contrary to what @Gorgias says, through His will, God actually causes us to choose it.

 

[o_mlly]

Which, in spite of all the previous arguments about God being outside of time…when it comes to the most important decision that anyone will ever have to make…we don’t have free will.

No, I don’t think the argument goes in that direction:

• [God] wills everyone to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth.
• Thy Kingdom come, the will be done …
• Ought we to hope that all men will be saved?
• Yes, to pray for an event that we simultaneously believe impossible would be cognitively dissonant.
• Ought we to believe that all men will be saved?
• No, that would be presumptuous and, for some, dangerous.

 

[EndTimes]

There is not too much difference according to the online dictionary.
The online dictionary gives:
inerrant: incapable of being wrong
infallible: Incapable of making mistakes or being wrong.

How dictionaries define terms - has no impact upon the self-evident actuality of e.g., Free Will

 

[jofa]

So far
WOW, that makes no sense at all. That hops keeps getting bigger. The more I read the more I am becoming convinced there is no free will or maybe no God.

It’s funny - the more I read the replies you’re getting, the more I am convinced of free will!
That leads me to think that perhaps this is spiritual rather than intellectual battle within you. Often, we are not aware when it is spiritual.
I suggest you pray for clarity and truth regarding this question.
Peace!

 

[EndTimes]

It’s funny - the more I read the replies you’re getting, the more I am convinced of free will!

It’s also funny the thought that anyone could be convinced by spurious full of holes arguments that there’s a big PuppetMaster controlling what I’m thinking and doing at this very moment…

 

[Gorgias]

It’s not that God simply knows what you’ll choose, because contrary to what @Gorgias says, through His will, God actually causes us to choose it.

No. @Latin kinda has it mistaken. Yes, God’s will is fulfilled. Yes, God wants us to choose Him, and He gives us sufficient grace to do so.

Yet… no. God doesn’t cause us to choose Him. If He did, then there would be no sin in the world. There would be no “first sin of Adam and Eve.” Since we have ample evidence to know that sin does exist, it therefore means that the assertion “God causes us to choose Him and go to heaven” is false.

But does not God want to save everyone? Assuming that is true i.e. that God wants to save everyone, then your comment sounds something like universal salvation?

Yes, @Latin thinks that this is true, despite the teaching of the Church to the contrary.

 

[Gorgias]

Can you show us where the article you have linked to says that Evangelicals and Fundamentalists do not say the Bible is infallible ? Here is the quote from your link in case you missed it:
"Evangelicals and Fundamentalists commonly say the Bible is infallible."

If you go beyond the first sentence, you’ll see he’s making the same case I am: they’re misusing the word:

Evangelicals and Fundamentalists commonly say the Bible is infallible. I wish they would stop. It is a misconstrual of the word. I know they mean well, but they are abusing a good and useful theological term.

But, to your point, just do a Google search on “inerrant Bible” and you’ll see that this (correct) usage is present. In fact, click on the result from Blue Letter Bible, and you’ll find this explanation:

There are two theological terms that are often used to explain the nature of the Bible—inerrancy and infallibility. They are used to point out how the Bible is different from all other books that have ever been written. Many use these terms interchangeably. Infallibility means incapable of making a mistake, while inerrancy means the absence of any error.

You have not proven that it is wrong to use infallible as I have used it

I’ve shown that you mean “inerrant”, but refuse to acknowledge that it’s a theological “term of art”, even though I’ve shown that’s the case from your own citation.

What you have given is only an erroneous opinion and nothing else.

Have a nice day, @AINg.

 

[jofa]

It’s also funny the thought that anyone could be convinced by spurious full of holes arguments that there’s a big PuppetMaster controlling what I’m thinking and doing at this very moment…

Again, I found the arguments lacking “holes” and quite convincing. I’m still not sure why anyone would make that claim.
But I guess we have different perspectives. No offense intended.

 

[AlNg]

Therefore all things are subject to fate.

Can fate and free will live together?

 

[AlNg]

There are two theological terms that are often used to explain the nature of the Bible—inerrancy and infallibility. They are used to point out how the Bible is different from all other books that have ever been written. Many use these terms interchangeably.

It took a long time to convince you of your error, but finally you see the point that I have been making.
"Evangelicals and Fundamentalists commonly say the Bible is infallible."

 

[phil3]

There is no battle within me. I am at peace with the way I think God knows things.

I believe that God knows every single decision that I might be able to make. He knows everything that might happen to me. He know just how many ways I might die. Just as I believe in an infinite number of universes, I believe there is an infinite number of outcome in my life. God knows them all.