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phil3
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There is no logic. This is nothing but faith. No science behind it just belief.
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whatistrue
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How about no logic that you accept as valid?
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Gorgias
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Your problem, though, is that this is precisely what the Church teaches. It’s possible.whatistrue:
NO, I don’t believe that is possible!!!
Ahh, but many choose what they think is “good”, when really it is not. They’re not choosing hell as such; they’re inheriting it as a consequence of their free will choices.
Ask Ananias and Sepphira, I guess?… which nevertheless doesn’t force the person to choose God, nor does it guarantee that the person will make that choice.
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Latin
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I know far better than that.
Consult with the Catholic Encyclopedias and with the Catechism of the Catholic Church.
The answer is there in plain and simple language, don’t even need to interpret it, the words means what it says.
Of course, our aided free wills doesn’t force us to choose God.
Aquinas said, "God changes the will without forcing it. But he can change the will from the fact that he himself operates in the will as he does in nature,” De Veritatis 22:9. 31. ST I-II:112:3. 32. Gaudium et Spes 22; "being …
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St. Thomas teaches that all movements of will and choice must be traced to the divine will: and not to any other cause, because Gad alone is the cause of our willing and choosing. CG, 3.91.
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St. Augustine on Grace and Predestination
De gratia et libero arbitrio 16, 32: “It is certain that we will when we will; but He brings it about that we will good … . It is certain that we act when we act, but He brings it about that we act , providing most effective powers to the will.”
CCCS 1990-1991; Justification is also our acceptance of God’s righteousness. In this gift, faith, hope, charity, and OBEDIENCE TO GOD’S WILL are given to us.
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CCCS 1996-1998; Justification comes from grace (God’s free and undeserved help) and is given to us to respond to his call.
This call to eternal life is supernatural, coming TOTALLY from God’s decision and surpassing ALL power of human intellect and will.
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John 15:16; You did not chose Me, but I chose you.
Acts 13:48; … as many as had been appointed for eternal life believed. – Not even one former unjust, idolaters, drunkards, etc. said no to God’s salvation.
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Of course it doesn’t guarantee that we choose God, if God would forget to infuse into us His gifts of faith, hope, charity, and OBEDIENCE TO His WILL, we would not choose God.
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You said Gorgias: Your problem, though, is that this is precisely what the Church teaches. It’s possible.
Please see my answer in my above post No. 213.
Please disregard my first sentence.
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God bless
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Rasoleil
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Dogs don’t have Free Will, though.
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Gorgias
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And the Catechism says what hell is, and how one condemns himself to it. Yep. That’s the teaching!Gorgias:
I know far better than that.Latin:
Ask Ananias and Sepphira, I guess?
Consult with the Catholic Encyclopedias and with the Catechism of the Catholic Church.
The answer is there in plain and simple language, don’t even need to interpret it, the words means what it says.
The fact that God gives us the gift of “obedience to God’s will” implies neither that we’ll retain that gift or that we’ll make use of it.
“The Church officially may not yet teach God saves every member of the human race”?
Yep. You got that right. Take it a step further: the Church officially teaches that universalism is a false doctrine.
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Godfollower
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I can’t decide whether the title of this thread is:
(A) Merely ironic; or
(B) Proof that free will exists.
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SFV
Guest
Think of it like this:
You are the director of a movie (your life)
and God merely watches it outside of time
You are the director of a movie (your life)
and God merely watches it outside of time
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Gorgias
Guest
Sure, except…
God doesn’t have to “watch” it. He knows not by the experience of senses, but by direct knowledge. (In other words, He’d be the worst person to pick a movie with on Friday night:
- “How about ‘Rocky’, God?”
- “Nope. Already know the plot.”
- “Ghostbusters?”
- “That one, too.”
- “The new ‘Star Wars’ flick?”
- “Same story.”
- “The next ‘Star Wars’ movie, that’s gonna come out in 2022?”
- “Been there, done that, have the t-shirt.”
- “sigh…”
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Latin
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Sadly, for lack of knowledge probably 50 % of religious people believe it, yet this is the truth as follows.
The Council of Sens (1140) condemned the idea that free will is sufficient in itself for any good. Donez., 373.
Council of Orange (529)
In canon 20, entitled that Without God Man Can Do No Good. . . Denz., 193; quoting St. Prosper.
In canon 22, says, “ No one has anything of his own except lying and sin. Denz., 194; quoting St. Prosper.
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GOD IS THE AUTHOR AND THE DIRECTOR OF THE MOVIE OF OUR LIFE
Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma by Ludwig Ott;
For every salutary act internal supernatural grace of God (gratia elevans) is absolutely necessary, (De fide dogma)
There is a supernatural intervention of God in the faculties of the soul, which precedes the free act of the will, (De fide dogma).
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Aquinas said, "God changes the will without forcing it. But he can change the will from the fact that he himself operates in the will as he does in nature,” De Veritatis 22:9. 31. ST I-II:112:3. 32.
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St. Thomas teaches that all movements of will and choice must be traced to the divine will: and not to any other cause, because Gad alone is the cause of our willing and choosing. CG, 3.91.
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OUR FATE/ DESTINY IS NOT IN US, IT IS IN GOD, HE IS THE AUTHOR AND THE DIRECTOR OF THE MOVIE OF OUR LIFE.
For Augustine says (De Civ. Dei v, 1) that the "Divine will or power is called fate. "
But the Divine will or power is not in creatures, but in God. Therefore fate is not in creatures but in God.
The Divine will is cause of all things that happen, as Augustine says (De Trin. iii, 1 seqq.). Therefore all things are subject to fate.
The same is true for events in our lives. Relative to us they often appear to be by chance.
But relative to God, who directs everything according to his divine plan, nothing occurs by chance.
Hence if this divine influence stopped, every operation would stop.
Every operation, therefore, of anything is traced back to Him as its cause. (Summa Contra Gentiles, Book III.)
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St. Augustine on Grace and Predestination
De gratia et libero arbitrio 16, 32: “It is certain that we will when we will; but He brings it about that we will good … . It is certain that we act when we act, but He brings it about that we act , providing most effective powers to the will.”
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As God himself operates in our wills, we are freely cooperating with His graces, without even knowing it. – CCC 307, CCC 308, etc.
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CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Free Will explains;
“God is the author of all causes and effects, but is not the author of sin, because an action ceases to be sin if God wills it to happen. Still God is the cause of sin.
God’s omnipotent providence exercises a complete and perfect control over all events that happen, or will happen, in the universe.”
Nothing that is outside of God’s creating, sustaining, and governing will.
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God bless
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AlNg
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God is both omnipotent and omniscient. Now if God is omniscient He knows what He will do in the future, for example, He will come down from heaven and become man. But if God is omnipotent, could He not change His mind on what He would do in the future? But once He knows what will happen in the future, how would he be able to change His mind about coming down from Heaven 2020 years ago. If He is not able to change His mind, would God be omnipotent or would He be lacking in that power?
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whatistrue
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No. God is outside of the Universe and so is not constrained by time. From God’s perspective there is no future or past, every one of our moments is to Him eternally now.
No. God is unchanging. Since He is outside of the Universe and therefore outside of time, He simply is. The eternal I AM.
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EndTimes
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Ahh… And “Infallibility” extends beyond just “ex Cathedra” papal pronouncments.
And it’s even part of secularstan to capitalize Proper Nouns
such as that term is being used in that manner as Church…
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o_mlly
Guest
In the succession of time, one can change their future decisions and the resulting outcomes of those decisions. The notion of virtue, the habit of choosing correctly, makes this so.
Determinism attempts to refute this truth by arguing that in specific circumstances, specific persons cannot choose otherwise. They imagine incorrectly that if future circumstances are identical to the past, that one will necessarily make the same choice. Not true. We may not be able to change circumstances but we can change ourselves. A vicious person can become a virtuous person with grace.
That the Omniscient One knows does not impinge on His gift of free will to you. I may know my child will make bad choices but my knowing does not cause those bad choices.
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John_Martin
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The LORD knows YOU, always has known all your doings, right?
Well, he knows you a bit more than your ventures into philosophy have shown you.
He created you to be a contingent creature who loves and chooses different things at different times. And you do.
in the Bible you read about how God changes his mind showing wrarh and then showing Mercy when people do things differently. but he is not actually changing his mind he is simply doing as he knows himself always doing with a contingent creature. Nothing is done in material reality by God alone but everything in material reality is done by God in Co-causation with contingent creatures, and therefore things happen temporarily and contingently even though God knows all things eternally.
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AlNg
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Exodus 32:14
So the Lord changed His mind about the harm which He said He would do to His people.
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whatistrue
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Poetic license for people who need that sort of God.
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AlNg
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OK. So the bible is poetry?
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whatistrue
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Parts of it are. Parts are historical/legal. Several genres involved. But “poetic license” is not restricted to use within poetry anyway.
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Gorgias
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Surprisingly, the answer is “no”. (However, this doesn’t mean that God does not have freedom.)
Think of it this way: if there are two choices, then one is objectively “better” or “more perfect” than the other. So, if God originally chooses the “better” one and then changes His mind, it means that He “moved” from “better” to “worse.” Conversely, if it’s the other way around, then that means that God had made a bad choice, and then corrected it. Either way, what you’re suggesting that God is imperfect. That stands at odds with the definition of God. So, when you reach a contradiction… you conclude that at least one of your presumptions is bad, right? Unless you’re going to try to convince us that “God is perfect” is mistaken, then the bad presumption is “God can change His mind.”
Now, this doesn’t mean that God doesn’t have freedom of will. He certainly does – and He uses it to act perfectly, in eternity.
To go from better to worse, or to pick poorly to begin with, isn’t something that, when it’s not present, is a “lack”. In fact, if it were present, then that would demonstrate a lack of perfection in God. Therefore… nope.
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