Free will? I dont think so

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Gorgias said:
Oh, play nice, guys…! @lelinator, the question is whether theories of relativity and of quantum mechanics absolutely fit hand-in-glove. I think there’s sufficient lack of consensus – at least in terms of the latter – to suggest that this isn’t cast in stone… no?
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Absolutely, and I’m unequivocally willing to accept that…that’s kinda part and parcel of being an agnostic.
Gorgias said:
what’s the generally accepted evidence that the two fields are absolutely in concord with each other?
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About the only thing that suggests that the two theories must be in accord with each other…somehow, is that they both describe and predict the behavior of the world around us, and they both do it very, very well. Therefore it’s likely that they’re telling us something about what’s fundamentally true about the world. And if both theories hold open the possibility that the past, present, and future all actually exist, then maybe we shouldn’t discount the possibility that they actually do.
Gorgias said:
Well… to be fair, ‘solipsism’ is kinda like agnosticism on LSD. Just sayin’…
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That is indeed a fair assessment. But I would argue that solipsism is simply agnosticism pushed to it’s logical conclusion. If I’m going to be completely honest about what I can and cannot know to be true, then it’s not just God that I need to question. I need to question the very nature of reality itself.

And that’s all that the solipsist does, they take an open and honest look at everything that they’ve ever presumed to be true. After which, they carry on, because although I may never know “why I am”, by my life, I get to define the most important aspects of “what I am”. And that may be all that any of us can ever be certain of…that by my life, I define, or perhaps I simply reveal, the essence of what I am.
 
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Often times, people who are questioning their faith are really struggling with something because they do not want to accept the truth, in my opinion.

You should ask yourself if you have reached your conclusions in order to reduce culpability.

For example, sometimes people who are struggling with a sin which Is difficult to conquer, give up and decide it is fate, or it is how God made them, or whatever.

It’s something to think about, I guess. I’ve been wrong before, that one time.
 
You make the wrong assumption I am struggling with my faith. I believe the catholic faith is the true faith. I dont believe God can know what I will do before I do it. I dont believe it is known before I am born if my soul will go to heaven or to hell. Why would God create something he knew would be flawed? But since God gave us free will, he will not know the final answer until my death. He may know all the potential outcomes, just not the final one.
 
Early in the thread you questioned the existence of God, so that is one reason I thought you were struggling.

Remember, God is a loving God, and He created us out of love. He gave us free will because he loves us. He will not make anyone end up in Heaven who does not want to be there. I’m sure there are people who will be happier in hell than they would have been in Heaven. God knows our hearts better than we do.

Think of a girlfriend you had who broke up with you. You might have been deeply in love with her, and it was a difficult time. Because you loved her, you let her go and be free. It was her choice, it is what she wanted, and you knew that.

You didn’t build a secret room in the basement, kidnap her, and make her stay with you, right? That would be an unloving thing to do. Only an unloving God would create people who had no choice but to love Him.

And, yes, God ultimately knows where you will spend eternity. He is all knowing, after all.

You have a choice. The struggle is real, so take up your cross and follow Jesus to the best of your ability, because God ain’t going to kidnap you and make you love Him for eternity.
 
What you’re currently discussing is an incredibly complex question. You’re going to need to check out some works on natural theology, which can be pretty complex. Frankly, I don’t even know where to start you except maybe check out Edward Feser’s blog and search for a topic like that.
 
whatistrue said:
Do you believe that it is possible for a human being to freely choose to refuse the grace offered by God and to thereby condemn themselves to Hell, and that God would therefore allow them to suffer in Hell for all eternity since it is their choice?
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NO, I don’t believe that is possible!!!
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Only an INTELLECTUALLY DISABLED person would want to go to hell, and God knows he need a doctor not the hell fire.
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How can anyone reject God’s graces when God himself operates in our wills and we don’t even have to know that we are FREELY COOPERATING with His graces???

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There is a supernatural intervention of God in the faculties of the soul, which precedes the free act of the will, (De fide dogma).
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Aquinas said, "God changes the will without forcing it. But he can change the will from the fact that he himself operates in the will as he does in nature,” De Veritatis 22:9. 31. ST I-II:112:3. 32. Gaudium et Spes 22; "being …
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St. Thomas teaches that all movements of will and choice must be traced to the divine will: and not to any other cause, because Gad alone is the cause of our willing and choosing. CG, 3.91.
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CCC 308 The truth that God is at work in all the actions of his creatures is inseparable from faith in God the Creator.
God is the first cause who operates in and through secondary causes:
"For God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
Far from diminishing the creature’s dignity, this truth enhances it.
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CCC 307 God thus enables men to be intelligent and free, causes in order to complete the work of creation, … Though often unconscious collaborators with God’s will, they can also enter deliberately into the divine plan by their actions.
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CCC 2022; The divine initiative (supernatural intervention of God in the faculties of the soul) in the work of grace precedes, prepares, and elicits the free response of man.
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St. Thomas teaches that God effects everything, the willing and the achievement. S. Th.II/II 4, 4 ad 3.

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Whatistrue, our fate/ destiny is not in us, it is IN GOD.

For Augustine says (De Civ. Dei v, 1) that the "Divine will or power is called fate. "
But the Divine will or power is not in creatures, but in God. Therefore fate is not in creatures but in God.

The Divine will is cause of all things that happen, as Augustine says (De Trin. iii, 1 seqq.). Therefore all things are subject to fate.

The same is true for events in our lives. Relative to us they often appear to be by chance.
But relative to God, who directs everything according to his divine plan, nothing occurs by chance.

Hence if this divine influence stopped, every operation would stop.
Every operation, therefore, of anything is traced back to Him as its cause. (Summa Contra Gentiles, Book III.)
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Nothing that is outside of God’s creating, sustaining, and governing will.
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As God himself operates in our wills, we are freely cooperating with His graces, without even knowing it.
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God bless
 
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If God knows then you have no free will. My questioning of the existence of God is if God know my final outcome and I believe I have free will, one of those two can not be factually true. Just as God can not make a rock so big that he can not pick it up. God can not give me free will and yet know the outcome at my death. God gave man free will and God will do nothing that goes against his divinity.

We have free will and God is unaware of the outcome until I die.

I have no issues with question many parts of the church teachings and it decisions throughout history. That doesnt mean I question the basic part of the faith
 
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phil3 said:
If God knows then you have no free will.
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Knowing is NOT determining. Knowledge and free will can and do coexist. I really don’t understand why this keeps coming up from so many different directions.
 
As with Existence, it’s self-evident we’ve Free Will.

And if any do not want to believe that… they’ve the God-Given Free Will to not believe it.
 
whatistrue said:
Then you deny the clear teaching of the Church and I have nothing more to say.
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Wow. This is really hard words from a relatively new Catholic brother.

The Church officially may not yet teach God saves every member of the human race.
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Yet the whole Church is praying for the salvation of every member of the human race (CCC 1058) and we all should believe what we are praying for.
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Also, many members of the Catholic Church from about the highest level teaching from long time that God will save the entire human race, which is not heresy, the Church would not pray for the fulfilment of a heresy.

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Also Cardinal Luis F. Ladaria Jesuit theologian has been secretary, the second in command, of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith since 2008 until 02/07/2017 and from this date on Pope Francis appointed Cardinal Ladaria SJ. to the position of the Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith and he is teaching Universal Salvation since many years.
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The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith formerly known as the Supreme Sacred Congregation of the Roman and Universal Inquisition.
It was founded to defend the church from heresy; today, it is the body responsible for promulgating and defending Catholic doctrines.

So, the salvation of the entire human race is NOT HERESY (CCC 1058, etc.)!

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There is a very good book on Universal Salvation: Jesus Christ Salvation of All by Cardinal Luis F. Ladaria SJ (Author).
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EDITORIAL REVIEWS
“Luis F. Ladaria SJ presents a powerful statement openly advocating universal salvation.
His advocacy of universal salvation is openly and undeniably proclaimed. ”
David Sielaff, Associates for Scriptural Knowledge, ASK " David Sielaff, Associates for Scriptural Knowledge, ASK"

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Jesus Christ Salvation of All by Cardinal Luis F. Ladaria SJ, Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.

“Jesus includes everyone and excludes no one, and all of us have received his fullness (cfr. John 1:16).

The universality of salvation and unity of Christ’s mediation mutually affirm each other.

Yet by dying, he gave us life that is the life of his resurrection.

Even those who do not know him are called to this divine vocation, that is, to the perfect son-ship in and through Christ.

Christians and non-Christians reach this goal by virtue of the gift of the Spirit that associates us with the unique paschal ministry of Christ even if it is through diverse paths known only to God.”

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In our modern Roman Catholic Church more and more Catholic theologians and Catholic Priests teaching Universal Salvation.

We all should believe what we are praying for, which is the salvation of the entire human race.
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God bless
 
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whatistrue said:
Knowing is NOT determining.
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Actuality determines “knowing”. To know something means to have information about it. There can be no knowledge about something that does not exist. There can only be some hypothesizing.
 
Latin said:
The Church officially may not yet teach God saves every member of the human race.
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I don’t care who claims that … .
but at best - that remains not only speculative theology…
it’s arguably also False.

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You are coming in at the tail end of a conversation and demanding a recap. The subject has been discussed a lot on this forum and should be relatively easy to find with the search feature.
 
whatistrue said:
Then you deny the clear teaching of the Church and I have nothing more to say.
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I have every right to question teaching of the church. The only thing I may not question are those declared ex cathedra. That has only been declared twice in 2000 years. good luck getting this one declared
 
phil3 said:
The only thing I may not question are those declared ex cathedra.
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That’s not entirely true. Ex cathedra only applies to Papal declarations. The Ordinary Magisterium uses different terminology. But that is a minor quibble and I never said you didn’t have the right, I only questioned the logic.
 
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